Esperanto: The artificial language that aimed to unite humanity
https://bigthink.com/high-culture/esperanto-the-artificial-language-that-aimed-to-unite-humanity/
https://bigthink.com/high-culture/esperanto-the-artificial-language-that-aimed-to-unite-humanity/
11 Comments
lvxferre@mander.xyz · 26 pts · 2y
csolisr@hub.azkware.net · 7 pts · 2y
Esperanto would be more solid if it weren't so Eurocentric. Idolinguo, one of its forks, solved a few of the issues Esperanto had in regards to grammar, but the Eurocentrism is still there.
lvxferre@mander.xyz · 8 pts · 2y
bionicjoey@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 2y
Reminds me of the programmer's expression: "there are two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about, and the ones nobody uses"
lvxferre@mander.xyz · 1 pts · 2y
senloke@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2y
I generally have a problem with it the statement that Esperanto is poorly designed. When considering that it does enough things right. That it uses internationalisms, that it can be sung, that it gives enough expressivity, that it's mechanical enough to be learnt by it's grammar, etc.
It always sounds as if Esperanto is Latin with a thousand of exceptions, designed like french with spoken language does not equal the written text of the language, etc.
When in fact the opposite is the case. People then point to one of the current language projects, which are supposedly "better" in one dimension or another. That's just optimizing to some standard of perfect.
lvxferre@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 2y
senloke@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2y
When someone starts with Justin B. Rye as an argument, then I stop listening. This pile of junk he put together just to utterly "destroy" a language and its community is something which should not be paid any credibility as if I listen to someone who spends hours and hours of writing up why vaccines are a bad thing. He is an individual who had bad experiences with Esperanto speakers, had the privilege of having time at his hands and seemingly a degree in linguistics (which I can't verify) to write his "ranto" up. A piece of junk which is solely intended to piss off and frustrates anyone who did look into Esperanto or even dared to learn it and who happens to be able to read English.
He would not be the first or the last linguist who shits on Esperanto full length without any actual facts behind the criticism.
That's not "poorly designed", that's a misnomer for "not perfect enough". Perfectionism is the enemy of good. And Esperanto is a working language which is in itself more or less consistent. One could argument that its inventor did not want to create the perfect language, but a working one which is the template for the actual language, which he knew would evolve out of it. Today's Esperanto is already a different one than the one published in 1887.
And? What is that for an argument? It has 16 rules, which are still 16 rules, which are rooted in how other languages do their thing. Then the rest of the booklet which the inventor of the language published was full of exercises to show the implicit rules. It can be argued that the original booklet was a result of brevity and to reduce printing costs, it's 42 pages damn it. Also some marketing which he used at the time of writing. Still, these rules are useable and give people enough to learn the language.
One could even argue that the 16 rules are not just 16 of the kind, even when reading them they have sub-parts, are longer than just say "-o marks nouns" or something. Criticizing Esperanto because of them is just an act of ill will. "Look ma! They are not just 16 rules ... looolz!" no shit Sherlock!
TL;DR: I'm calling the claim "poorly designed" as nonsense and ANY re-iteration of it as trolling or dishonest attempt to derail any rational investigation of Esperanto as a language.
lvxferre@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 2y
senloke@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2y
Rational investigation requires criticism, like it or not. Yes it does. But your response and your whole argumentation is not criticism but trolling, just designed to provoke an emotional response which you can then tear down and enjoying while doing it. Like what you did earlier and also on my reply.
As I wrote disproving JBR or making any response to him is like responding to an anti-vaxxer. I don't have the damn time, nor could all my responses be trusted, because I'm not a linguist, so who cares anyway? Musing all day about the details of where JBR was right and where he talked as an English speaker out of his ass, just to piss off more people -- brings what exactly? Those people who already made up their opinions will still stick to them, those who will learn Esperanto anyway will learn it anyway. The damage has already been done, because those who are undecided will not learn it or even consider it a language at all. WELL DONE!
And reactions then like yours always boils down to the "bad Esperantist", who reacts pissed off to shitty ideas, shitty opinions thrown around by people who should shut their mouths for good.
No it's not. A poorly designed pocket knife for example will hurt you, a not perfect knife is just lacking a feature which you would like, but which does not harm you.
I really tried to not assume that, but the way you argumented, how you twisted my response all lead me to the conclusion that you are argumenting against the usage of Esperanto at all as most people who follow the exact argumentation chain do. Using JBR as valid source would be one point in that chain. Like as I quote some news article of Russia Today to prove that the war of Russia against the Ukraine is right, because Ukraine is full of national socialists.
lvxferre@mander.xyz · 0 pts · 2y
lvxferre@mander.xyz MOD · 0 pts · 2y
senloke@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2y
Ah now the authority is speaking. As if it was me who started to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) about Esperanto. By just welcoming the blessed opinions of JBR.
It's not out of nowhere, people who use the same tactics in argumentation are grouped together. And even when you don't like it. Then don't like the opinion I have about your argumentation style. As you already noted about my style of argumentation.
When an argument goes in a certain direction, then there is little left of what the person really is intending. Experience counts more than uncertainty.
In general I would agree with you there. But in the end let's face it, the arguments of an architect regarding the construction of buildings weighs more than the arguments of Joe the neighbour regarding house building. In the end you only have logic and "argumentation style" to prove or disprove what you are saying. This in turn means that arguments are forced to follow a certain direction inevitably because of "logic", which leads to the same conclusions, which leads to echo chambers of people who follow these conclusions.
If for example you approach road design by seeing that all the cars are blocking them, so you by the force of logic you widen the road, the problem still exist, you widen the road more. Based on the experience of people who did research into road construction, infrastructure building you would have known that using trains, bike lanes, smaller roads and more clever design of cities would really solve the problem. Sheer basic logic does not solve shit.
And so it is in attempting with disproving or proving JBR.
Cute, I'm only in normal conditions and this is already considered "excessive snark". Adopting a defensive tone is what I did, because I think you are spreading FUD about Esperanto.
TL;DR: I still call your claim that Esperanto is poorly designed "nonsense".
Jakylla@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 2y
Compared to current Global language that is English, that is still a better option according to this argument
WidowsFavoriteSon@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2y
It's still spoken. Great second language, very easy to learn but also very robust.
Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com · 2 pts · 2y
Se vi estas Eŭropulo, ĝi estas tre facile lerni. Mi estas eterne komencanto, do mia skribo ne estas bone, sed mi povas leĝi ĝin.
As a native English speaker "-n" trips me up a lot and in general remembering roots and affixes ruin my output. But, input is solid "leĝ-" looks and sounds like "legible" so "leĝi" is "to read", most of the roots are parsable like this.
InfiniteFlow@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
Eĉ se vi ne estas. Kvankam la lingvo estis desegnita base de aliaj eŭropaj lingvoj, ĝi estas universale facile lernebla. Fakte, estas granda komunumo de esperantistoj en Ĉinio, Koreio, ktp. Nu, la fekan akuzativon ni vere ne bezonis...
bionicjoey@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 2y
I'm surprised I can basically understand >90% of this even though I've never seen any Esperanto in my life