While the article and scenario I linked and talk about are very specific I’d like to use this as a learning experience to be better armed when faced with something similar.
So I was scrolling through videos on tiktok responding to this “leftist” creator and one of the responses was from a reactionary guy I’m semi familiar with, familiar in the sense that I’ve seen responses to his nonsense. Anyway I went to check his account because I had never done it before and saw that he was a self identified Libertarian (bad start) and made videos on USSR history.
The latter worried me a lot and one of his most recent videos was titled “the Bolshevik revolution was evil,” and because I have no self preservation I wanted to see what his sources were. Lo and behold, he only cited this article which has some awful content. People in the comments were raving about how amazing his video was and it made me want to do a bit of a deep dive into if any of the “facts” in the article were in any way true. I just don’t know where to start.
Please mind the trigger warning at the beginning of the article as there are very graphic images and descriptions.
13 Comments
DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml · 5 pts · 3y
I think the questions are:
What are you hoping to accomplish by combating this misinformation?
and
What is more likely to happen than your ideal outcome?
It sounds like you're going to just get into an argument with ignorant reactionaries on the internet. You won't change their minds, they won't change yours, you won't show them how bullshit their arguments are.
My recommendation would be to not waste your time. You can inform a friend in real life that their sources are bullshit, and they will listen. But reactionaries aren't that way because they just have "wrong information." They're there because it gives them an excuse to be horrible, hateful people, and feel justified in doing so. You can't logic someone out of that position.
SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml · 4 pts · 3y
I’m honestly doing it for myself mostly. I don’t plan on making a response video to these folks as I know it’s a waste of time.
I have an idea for a personal project that factually documents chronological historical events in a given country and making sure I have everything covered is important to me.
Combating misinformation would be part of that, as in bringing up the “opposing argument” and providing an accurate account of what actually happened.
Not only would this be for my personal project but also for research papers I publish in the near future to help educate the public.
I hope that makes sense, if I need to clarify anything please let me know.
DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
Oh ok. It's always a good idea to try and understand a situation better, but it's good you're doing it for yourself, not for them.
I guess if you can stomach it, going through their argument and comparing it and contrasting it with what actually happened would be a good start. Try and get a good understanding of the fundamentals of the situation, and look at multiple different sources, as well as events surrounding the topic (so in the case of the Bolshevik revolution, the events leading up to it, and the events afterwards), anti-com sources will often treat an event as if it happened in a vacuum, for no reason other than "an evil commie was being evil." But no event in history ever happened "for the evil" Every action has motivation behind it.
Sorry if my rambling isn't very helpful, I'm sure you'd just rather a list of sources, but I'm without mine at the moment.
SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
You’ve been very helpful so don’t worry about that!
The hardest thing for me right now is stomaching reading all the lies and falsehoods but I need to start somewhere, and with practice it gets easier.
Starting with the before is definitely my best bet, at least with the Romanovs or even before them. I guess I just have a weird fear that when researching I’ll read and waste my time on unreliable sources. I do have access to places like JSTOR so I know that’s a decent place, plus I’m sure the Prolewiki would be a good place to turn to as well.
nour@lemmygrad.ml · 4 pts · 3y
I'm not a historian, but from a cursory reading of this article, I think these could be some starting points. (Going to post several comments, since Lemmy isn't letting me post my single long comment, it just keeps loading and loading and doesn't acutally send.)
Notice how for some parts, the only sources are quotes from Bolsheviks themselves, with a lot of talk around them to provide the wrong context, like this pretty amusing one at the start (putting them all inside spoilers because I don't like large paragraphs of reactionary drivel disrupting the flow of my comment):
:::spoiler long quote
Or this one; read carefully and you will notice that nowhere does this quote support the article's assertion in the paragraph right above it that the famine was done intentionally.
:::spoiler long quote
And right after that, they quote the black book of communism. Writing its title in French. I wonder whether that's a coincidence, or whether even they know that the black book isn't credible and try to hide that they're citing it. It should be well-known enough that it isn't credible that you don't need to do your own work investigating it and can dismiss it out of hand:
:::spoiler long quote
Then there are quotes like this. You could of course try to check whether it is real and what is the context, but without looking that far, it seems like a reasonable course of action to take for a revolution desperately fighting for its survival. The article is framing this as some unique evil as if any other army wouldn't have killed deserters.
:::spoiler long quote
Once you dismiss that part, there is the other half of the article, the one that alleges a lot of atrocities committed by the Bolsheviks.
I used tineye.com to reverse image search one of the pictures from that article, the one captioned "In the foreground, the body of the telegraph operator Ponomarenko in the Cheka of Kharkiv". Guess what I found? Look here. The pictures are at the bottom of this page, with the captions in the article being a translation of the Russian captions of the pictures in this thing. What is this thing? It seems to be a reprint/digitalization something captioned:
which translates (sorry if I got something wrong, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about military terms, but the general menaing should be there):
So literal white army propaganda. Not exactly the most credible source.
This doesn't mean that there never were any excesses committed by the Cheka. But obviously the white army has an interest in depicting their enemy as extremely violent, excessive, and plain evil.
nour@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
(part two)
Finally, the text, where they quote some actual authors. But not the page or even the book this is from, so basically impossible to verify and get some context. For the extreme claims they make, the burden of proof is on the article authors, not on us.
Anyway, let's look at what exactly they even say:
:::spoiler long quote
After reading through the loaded language, it seems that they are surprised there are a lot of prisoners in the gulag during the civil war, and that the conditions were harsh. That's all they're really saying. Except, I guess, for this sentence:
I vaguely remember reading that the gulags did not actually have very high death rates. I don't remember the source, unfortunately. It seems to be a rather popular claim, so if you're doing a debunking for yourself, you might want to try to find some reading on it.
The next two claims are ones where I'm not educated enough to know what actually happened. So, you might also want to research these two events.
:::spoiler long quote
:::spoiler long quote
The Dimitry Pospielovsky guy they cite for the alleged brutality against the priests (paragraph below) seems rather questionable as a source.
:::spoiler long quote
Here's the Russian Wikipedia link for him (English Wikipedia doesn't have much), the guy worked for "Free Russia" and "Radio Svoboda". (Yes, I know Wikipedia is not a credible source, but I doubt they'd lie about the guy's affiliations.) Literal CIA outlets. Can be dismissed out of hand.
The other guy they cite is Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev. Here's his Wikipedia. Maybe less unhinged than literal CIA, but still doesn't exactly seem unbiased. Can't dismiss every single thing he wrote out of hand per se, but considering the fact they don't cite book and page so that we could look at the context and the sources, the burden of proof is still on them.
:::spoiler long quote
I hope any of this is helpful to you. At least that would mean that the hours I just spent on commenting on some worthless Spanish conservative site's drivel (notice that one paragraph where they excuse Franco in this very article) were at least somewhat worth it.
SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml · 1 pts · 3y
Wow thank you so much for this, I definitely wasn’t expecting something so thorough! This is incredibly helpful and I hope you’re doing alright as I know how taxing stuff like this can be.
AlbigensianGhoul@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
Very relatable.
If you want to have a go at debunking stuff like this, I suggest you go at it piecemeal. A common tactic of (smarter) reactionaries is to do a barrage of easily verifiable false claims to make themselves seem knowledgeable and debunking every single one of them in one go gets very tiring. It's kinda why that youtuber Shaun has to make 2-3 hour videos against relatively small material, because the bullshit density is too high.
In this specific case, you could start from the last one (man-made famine) since I think it's the easier one to debunk and work backwards from there to more complex and abstract ones like "Lenin wanted dictatorship from the start," which will need some broader philosophical and historical discussion on the democratic nature of the USSR. I think I have a similar project to yours where I wanted to write my own perspective of the history of post-Columbian Haiti, which begun as a video idea, but I deeply underestimated the amount of effort that that will take. I already dropped all ambitions of making it a video, for example, since that'd bloat it even more with things I'm unskilled with.
It also depends on how acquainted you already are with history. If you've never done something like this before, a good place to start might be just the ProleWiki and the listed sources, and you can come back here with more specific questions about certain facts. Usually if a book is good it'll also cite other sources to either build upon or contradict, so your sources list will grow from there. It's certainly a lot of work, but very satisfying.
Edit: also, yeah, you're gonna read and see some horrifying stuff. I got used to it pretty quickly, but I can't guarantee it's always this easy.
Good luck comrade, and feel free to ask more questions!
SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
Thank you, comrade. Everyone’s responses have been super encouraging and helpful which makes this whole endeavour way less intimidating and overwhelming. I’ll definitely be making use of ProleWiki and expand from there. Making a video series on world history is one of the projects I’d like to do in the near future and will be a big undertaking but I think it’s worth it, I just gotta brush up on my editing skills which is harder than it appears as you’ve said so yourself. My thing is to go continent by continent, each being their own “season” with an episode dedicated to each country.
AlbigensianGhoul@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
Do keep us posted! Even excerpts from the script "alpha" might be cool for some feedback.
SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
I 100% will!
Pointtwogo@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
Okay, those 'facts' in that article are quite extreme and absurd.
SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
Right? Also, the fact that this tiktoker shared it with so many people as if it’s accurate is incredibly worrisome.