I'll be honest, I don't even call myself a software engineer. Programmer is the better way, engineering comes with the baggage of breing able to confirm that your work won't fall appart in the next X years. You can't really confirm that in software.
I half worry for society and half feel that as much as I feel bad about my coding abilities, I'm better than people who never actually bother learning the concepts themselves and fully outsource their homework to AI and that population is growing. It's a low bar but more people are failing to clear it every day!
Using AI for everything rather than learning stops working entirely once you hit upper level courses - I can assure you most people who do this beyond sophomore year will not obtain a degree, especially at any research-oriented institution
I really don't get the point of gatekeeping a job title.
There's no official license or certification for software engineering in the US, so anyone claiming you have to meet some requirement to call yourself a software engineer is factually wrong. Now, pretty much every tech company calls anyone who writes code some form of engineer, so much so that SDE/SWE is a pretty universal acronym.
I really don't care personally, and I don't go around grouping myself in with other engineering fields. But for the past 7 or so years, my actual job title has had the word "engineer" in it despite the fact that I don't have a Bachelor's degree. I feel like jumping through hoops to say, "well, my official title is Software Engineer, but technically I'm a programmer" is just pedantic and probably more confusing for most people.
I could see an argument for differentiating between those who participate heavily in the design and evolution of an entire codebase (as opposed to those who just pull tickets and write code), but even that has kind of just evolved into the junior/mid/senior/etc terminology.
The P.Eng society is working on this, so that only actual engineers can use the title engineer. Software “engineers” should just be called code monkeys.
It many countries, like Germany, engineer is a protected designation, just like doctor.
The P.Eng society is working on this, so that only actual engineers can use the title engineer.
Which is why I specified I was talking about the US. Also, fair. If the term ever actually has a clear set of requirements, then of course it would be incorrect to claim the title without meeting those requirements.
Software “engineers” should just be called code monkeys.
I hope you realize how elitist this comes across. I've worked with a lot of contractors, web developers, etc. that have a strong understanding of software development and are able to author software really well. I would be so embarrassed if they knew I referred to them as "code monkeys". Something tells me that you're the kind of person I'm very grateful to have never had the misfortune of working with.
You do realize that the term "software engineer" isn't regulated, right? There's no test, no license, no bar/board. Unlike doctors, who are required by law to have a medical license.
19 Comments
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 58 pts · 260d
Gonzako@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 260d
I'll be honest, I don't even call myself a software engineer. Programmer is the better way, engineering comes with the baggage of breing able to confirm that your work won't fall appart in the next X years. You can't really confirm that in software.
codemankey@programming.dev · 6 pts · 259d
Formal methods, and few dependencies.
solomonschuler@lemmy.zip · 17 pts · 260d
andioop@programming.dev · 1 pts · 259d
I half worry for society and half feel that as much as I feel bad about my coding abilities, I'm better than people who never actually bother learning the concepts themselves and fully outsource their homework to AI and that population is growing. It's a low bar but more people are failing to clear it every day!
finitebanjo@piefed.world · -6 pts · 260d
_g_be@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 260d
The students themselves are doing it, it's not the commenter's fault.
From the high school and university teachers I've talked to, AI is commonly used and it actively undermines their learning.
It's a pretty new tech so many schools don't have a solid policy on its use. It's a mess
solomonschuler@lemmy.zip · 13 pts · 260d
finitebanjo@piefed.world · -5 pts · 260d
YoSoySnekBoi@kbin.earth · 8 pts · 260d
Using AI for everything rather than learning stops working entirely once you hit upper level courses - I can assure you most people who do this beyond sophomore year will not obtain a degree, especially at any research-oriented institution
solomonschuler@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 259d
ellen.kimble@piefed.social · -6 pts · 260d
What an immature POV. A lot of engineers don’t have a science or math degrees
Lemmyoutofhere@lemmy.ca · 17 pts · 260d
They should. An engineering degree is literally a Bachelor of Science.
jonathan7luke@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 259d
I really don't get the point of gatekeeping a job title.
There's no official license or certification for software engineering in the US, so anyone claiming you have to meet some requirement to call yourself a software engineer is factually wrong. Now, pretty much every tech company calls anyone who writes code some form of engineer, so much so that SDE/SWE is a pretty universal acronym.
I really don't care personally, and I don't go around grouping myself in with other engineering fields. But for the past 7 or so years, my actual job title has had the word "engineer" in it despite the fact that I don't have a Bachelor's degree. I feel like jumping through hoops to say, "well, my official title is Software Engineer, but technically I'm a programmer" is just pedantic and probably more confusing for most people.
I could see an argument for differentiating between those who participate heavily in the design and evolution of an entire codebase (as opposed to those who just pull tickets and write code), but even that has kind of just evolved into the junior/mid/senior/etc terminology.
Lemmyoutofhere@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 259d
The P.Eng society is working on this, so that only actual engineers can use the title engineer. Software “engineers” should just be called code monkeys.
It many countries, like Germany, engineer is a protected designation, just like doctor.
jonathan7luke@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 259d
Which is why I specified I was talking about the US. Also, fair. If the term ever actually has a clear set of requirements, then of course it would be incorrect to claim the title without meeting those requirements.
I hope you realize how elitist this comes across. I've worked with a lot of contractors, web developers, etc. that have a strong understanding of software development and are able to author software really well. I would be so embarrassed if they knew I referred to them as "code monkeys". Something tells me that you're the kind of person I'm very grateful to have never had the misfortune of working with.
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 16 pts · 260d
vithigar@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 260d
Not having a degree doesn't mean they don't know math.
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 4 pts · 260d
Don_alForno@feddit.org · 7 pts · 260d
Engineers use math and know math. That doesn't mean they have math degrees. They have engineering degrees. Of which math courses are a part.
Moreover, most people with actual math and science degrees explicitly are not engineers.
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 0 pts · 259d
jonathan7luke@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 259d
You do realize that the term "software engineer" isn't regulated, right? There's no test, no license, no bar/board. Unlike doctors, who are required by law to have a medical license.
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 1 pts · 259d
Miaou@jlai.lu · -1 pts · 259d
It is
jonathan7luke@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 259d
To be more specific, in the US, it is definitely not.
ieGod@lemmy.zip · 15 pts · 260d
No, but programming is not engineering.
Miaou@jlai.lu · 2 pts · 259d
Then they're not engineers, no shame in that...
marcos@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 260d
Yeah, let's pretend the vibe-coder creates praiseworthy code when everything is working...
Speiser0@feddit.org · 10 pts · 260d
No no, it makes sense when you consider the reaction of the praising person when they have to review the PR.
melfie@lemy.lol · 2 pts · 259d