I think he showed how anyone can view themselves as just doing their job, and he was good at it. I think it is left to us to wonder when he realized that he was an oppressive formce instead of security. He humanized the empire, that they are normal people who think they are truly helping, and it's usually not until they're so far in that they realize what they've been doing.
So is he evil? Depends on whose viewpoint. I bet he thought he was helping, up until close to the end. Andor does a great job at showing us that facism isn't something that happens overnight, it isn't something most people even realize is happening. It's insidious, slow, and you may not know you're even a part of it until your part is done. I think that's the true power of the show.
Yeah, exactly! I felt that was the whole point of Andor, as well as the portraying the nastiness/ruthlessness of the Rebellion's side, too.
I think it's supposed to make absolute judgements like "is Partagaz a bad person?" or "is Luthen a good person?" fundamentally unanwerable. They are just too deep in such a messed up fascist system.
And perfectly done too, that there are no black and white answers in something like that. Star Wars always was "Good" vs "Evil", Andor did a great job at saying "Good needs to get dirty, and evil plays by the rules too". Only grey areas.
It felt refreshingly subversive/deconstructive. The only old piece of Star Wars media I got such a similar vibe from was KOTOR 2 (which is quite obviously an inspiration, given the direct references like the Rakata necklace).
The Darth Maul series kinda has this vibe, too. I hope the new Star Wars leadership leans into it.
Remember his question and speech early on in the series (paraphrasing a bit here):
"What do we do here?"
General confusion, Dedra quotes from the ISB handbook and is told WRONG
"You want security? Call the Navy, launch a regiment of troopers. We are healthcare providers, we treat sickness. We identify symptoms. We locate germs whether they arise from within or have come from outside. The longer we wait to identify a disorder, the harder it is to treat the disease."
He has no illusions as to what his job is, and is clearly comfortable with the idea of dehumanizing any and all potential dissidents of the empire's order. He is a professional at crushing opposition to a totalitarian regime and knows it, takes pride in it even. Whether he maintains some semblance of workplace comradery or not, whether he thinks Ghorman was a bad idea or not, is a moot point. He even says security is an illusion, that's not his goal, to him some people are simply not people. Merely germs to be cleansed, a disease to be eradicated. So, I would say objectively not a good person.
His actions are definitely unethical but overall he seems like a good leader who cares about the people under him. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be held accountable but it does make me think about how seemingly good people do terrible things.
Being a good boss doesn't make you a good person. Being a guiding force in a genocide isn't just "unethical". These two aspects are so radically out of scale morally that it shouldn't be complicated at all.
I get pondering the morality of Syril or Luthien, but there really shouldn't be any question about Partagaz. A "nice" Nazi is still a Nazi.
Hitler was pretty animal friendly and, for all we know, in a fairly loving relationship with Eva Braun. Pretty much no real person is evil to everyone, always and in any situation. That doesn't make Hitler any less of a bad person. I would even argue it makes him more evil: He knows how to treat living beings with respect, he just thinks a majority of humanity isn't worth his respect.
14 Comments
scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech · 23 pts · 6d
I think he showed how anyone can view themselves as just doing their job, and he was good at it. I think it is left to us to wonder when he realized that he was an oppressive formce instead of security. He humanized the empire, that they are normal people who think they are truly helping, and it's usually not until they're so far in that they realize what they've been doing.
So is he evil? Depends on whose viewpoint. I bet he thought he was helping, up until close to the end. Andor does a great job at showing us that facism isn't something that happens overnight, it isn't something most people even realize is happening. It's insidious, slow, and you may not know you're even a part of it until your part is done. I think that's the true power of the show.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 6d
Yeah, exactly! I felt that was the whole point of Andor, as well as the portraying the nastiness/ruthlessness of the Rebellion's side, too.
I think it's supposed to make absolute judgements like "is Partagaz a bad person?" or "is Luthen a good person?" fundamentally unanwerable. They are just too deep in such a messed up fascist system.
scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech · 7 pts · 6d
And perfectly done too, that there are no black and white answers in something like that. Star Wars always was "Good" vs "Evil", Andor did a great job at saying "Good needs to get dirty, and evil plays by the rules too". Only grey areas.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 6d
Yes! I loved that.
It felt refreshingly subversive/deconstructive. The only old piece of Star Wars media I got such a similar vibe from was KOTOR 2 (which is quite obviously an inspiration, given the direct references like the Rakata necklace).
The Darth Maul series kinda has this vibe, too. I hope the new Star Wars leadership leans into it.
scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech · 1 pts · 5d
I hope so too but I think it was lightening in a bottle tbh. I have a feeling we'll get more Mandalorian and Grogu instead of Andor.
simulacra_procession@lemmy.today · 9 pts · 5d
Remember his question and speech early on in the series (paraphrasing a bit here):
"What do we do here?" General confusion, Dedra quotes from the ISB handbook and is told WRONG
"You want security? Call the Navy, launch a regiment of troopers. We are healthcare providers, we treat sickness. We identify symptoms. We locate germs whether they arise from within or have come from outside. The longer we wait to identify a disorder, the harder it is to treat the disease."
He has no illusions as to what his job is, and is clearly comfortable with the idea of dehumanizing any and all potential dissidents of the empire's order. He is a professional at crushing opposition to a totalitarian regime and knows it, takes pride in it even. Whether he maintains some semblance of workplace comradery or not, whether he thinks Ghorman was a bad idea or not, is a moot point. He even says security is an illusion, that's not his goal, to him some people are simply not people. Merely germs to be cleansed, a disease to be eradicated. So, I would say objectively not a good person.
yesman@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 6d
What could possibly redeem him? He's the Adolf Eichmann of the Empire's genocide in Ghorman.
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 6d
His actions are definitely unethical but overall he seems like a good leader who cares about the people under him. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be held accountable but it does make me think about how seemingly good people do terrible things.
Zaktor@sopuli.xyz · 6 pts · 6d
Being a good boss doesn't make you a good person. Being a guiding force in a genocide isn't just "unethical". These two aspects are so radically out of scale morally that it shouldn't be complicated at all.
I get pondering the morality of Syril or Luthien, but there really shouldn't be any question about Partagaz. A "nice" Nazi is still a Nazi.
polysexualstick@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 5d
Hitler was pretty animal friendly and, for all we know, in a fairly loving relationship with Eva Braun. Pretty much no real person is evil to everyone, always and in any situation. That doesn't make Hitler any less of a bad person. I would even argue it makes him more evil: He knows how to treat living beings with respect, he just thinks a majority of humanity isn't worth his respect.
angrystego@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 5d
It's not about what the person seems like in day to day life. It's about the actions one takes. There are some actions no good person would take.
angrystego@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 5d
But there are much better answeres than mine around here, sorry for the word-pollution.
s@piefed.world · 7 pts · 6d
He hand-waved a planetary genocide by saying “It’s bad luck Ghorman”
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 6d
ttayh@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 6d
Yes