I like the prefix marks. I wish we used them for all of our punctuation. They improve readability. Imagine if we removed the leading double-quote on our quoted lines.
.I feel like this analogy doesn't entirely work because you always know where the question starts, as that's where the sentence startS. ,And a sentence always starts where the one before ends, ¿righT? .However I still see why you say it improves readabilitY. ¡I'm sure my comment is very readable right noW!
lol yeah I guess it depends on the length of the sentence and the context. Context is usually pretty clear for questions, and maybe exclamations are typically short enough that the '!' is already visible anyways. Definitely wasn't considering periods and commas in that list.
I feel like the first example in your comment implies a different intonation than it's equivalent in PooloverNathan's comment. Also I feel the need to admit that I first read ¿)Nathan's(? username as "Pool-over" as in "pull over"...
In Spanish questions are phrased the same way as affirmations, when you are speaking the only difference is the intonation. Without a mark to say you are starting to read a question it's possible that the meaning changes in the end which would be annoying. (Source: Portuguese is the same but has no inverted question mark, and sometimes it's mighty annoying, especially with long questions)
All have different intonations and punctuation but are otherwise the same. Internet lingo does compensate for this somewhat but at least in "proper" form the above holds true for all kinds of situations
Imagine if you could ask questions like "James, Mary, and Jack went to the market last Saturday to buy a shovel, a black bag, and some gloves, to bury Karen's corpse in the deep dark woods?"
No no no, James, Mary, and Jack went to the market last Saturday to buy a shovel, a black bag, and some flashlights, to bury Karen's corpse in the deep dark woods
Not really. In my language subject and verb get switched around in a question. So you immediately know it’s a question when you start reading the sentence.
Yeah that's initially why I thought there was no difference to Spanish. But the difference is Spanish actually doesn't have an option where you switch subject and verb. Didn't know that :)
É de facto irritante. Nada como estar na escola e um prof pede para ler. Estás calmamente a ler o texto e de repente tens de forçar a porcaria da entoação para sobrecompensar o facto de que não reparaste que era uma pergunta
In spanish questions intonation changes occur only on the last word(s), not the whole sentence. I'm not a linguistic, but I think it's so you can be sure a sentence is a question from the start.
When reading english sometimes I assume a sentence is an affirmation until I see the question mark, and then I have to reinterpret the sentence. I wonder how it is for native english speakers. Do they assume nothing until the sentence is finished?
In English most questions stay flat and only raises the pitch on the last syllable, if any. In Spanish we can raise the pitch on the first word and stay flat for the rest of the question. That's what's useful about the ¿
(Latin American fellow) At first I thought this was an Australia-style joke, because there are Spanish speaking countries in both hemispheres. Yep, I can overthink stuff and still be an idiot lol
The opening quotation marks should be on the bottom, but it's been a while since I wrote them that way. Luckily, the wiki page (in Dutch) shows how they can be entered in three common OSes (see: unicode), so I'll try my best to revive the correct usage again.
Also, I don't think it is considered incorrect to use top quotation marks on a computer any longer.
63 Comments
ActionHank@sopuli.xyz · 61 pts · 2y
I like the prefix marks. I wish we used them for all of our punctuation. They improve readability. Imagine if we removed the leading double-quote on our quoted lines.
victron@programming.dev · 25 pts · 2y
As a latin American myself, I never considered that. As a programmer, I completely back that up.
stebo02@sopuli.xyz · 10 pts · 2y
.I feel like this analogy doesn't entirely work because you always know where the question starts, as that's where the sentence startS. ,And a sentence always starts where the one before ends, ¿righT? .However I still see why you say it improves readabilitY. ¡I'm sure my comment is very readable right noW!
vithigar@lemmy.ca · 31 pts · 2y
I don't mind the prefixed punctuation at all and don't think it hurts readability in the slightest.
Your inexplicable decision to capitalize the final letters is awful though, and definitely makes it less readable.
stebo02@sopuli.xyz · 9 pts · 2y
lol noted, I was just goofing around
ActionHank@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 2y
lol yeah I guess it depends on the length of the sentence and the context. Context is usually pretty clear for questions, and maybe exclamations are typically short enough that the '!' is already visible anyways. Definitely wasn't considering periods and commas in that list.
PoolloverNathan@programming.dev · 2 pts · 2y
Not always. For example (translated):
stebo02@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 2y
You could write that as "And you? How are you?" so both parts of that sentence are still a question.
However there are other examples where you're right: ",That's not going to happen, ¿or is it?"
akariii@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2y
I feel like the first example in your comment implies a different intonation than it's equivalent in PooloverNathan's comment. Also I feel the need to admit that I first read ¿)Nathan's(? username as "Pool-over" as in "pull over"...
EvolvedTurtle@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
Ngl in my head I read this as "I. . . feel like"
samus12345@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 2y
Statement: Perhaps HK-47's programmers had the right idea.
Thoughtful: The Elcor's manner of speech from Mass Effect would be particularly useful when communicating through text as well.
ScarcePavement@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
Approving: Indeed
RavenFellBlade@startrek.website · 4 pts · 2y
Sarcastic: Indeed.
Wow. So that's how you can actually do sarcasm on the interwebs!
intelati@programming.dev · 2 pts · 2y
100%
RedditRefugee69@lemmy.world · 39 pts · 2y
So… Spanish people aren’t normal people?
magnetosphere@kbin.social · 21 pts · 2y
If someone defied gravity when confused, I’d feel pretty comfortable saying that wasn’t normal, regardless of race.
akariii@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2y
this is my 🤓 moment, but Spanish isn't a race...
I know, I'll take the 🤓
magnetosphere@kbin.social · 2 pts · 2y
Yeah, I just responded quickly without thinking.
Also, there’s nothing wrong with 🤓 as long as you own it, which you have!
akariii@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2y
thank you, I feel validated in my 🤓ness
lemmytry@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 2y
op wasn't expecting an inquisition.
fossilesque@mander.xyz · 17 pts · 2y
Techmaster@lemm.ee · 11 pts · 2y
Definitely not. Haven't you met one before?
0x4E4F@infosec.pub · 28 pts · 2y
Yeah, I never got the upside-down questionmark as well 😂.
jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de · 59 pts · 2y
In Spanish questions are phrased the same way as affirmations, when you are speaking the only difference is the intonation. Without a mark to say you are starting to read a question it's possible that the meaning changes in the end which would be annoying. (Source: Portuguese is the same but has no inverted question mark, and sometimes it's mighty annoying, especially with long questions)
tdawg@lemmy.world · 37 pts · 2y
Funny enough English does this all the time:
All have different intonations and punctuation but are otherwise the same. Internet lingo does compensate for this somewhat but at least in "proper" form the above holds true for all kinds of situations
schmidtster@lemmy.world · 26 pts · 2y
1 Food that is edible
2 Tasty food
3 Bad looking food
4 Either happy or disgusted at what was just in your mouth
5 Defending your cooking after it’s referred to as 1-4
jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de · 15 pts · 2y
Imagine if you could ask questions like "James, Mary, and Jack went to the market last Saturday to buy a shovel, a black bag, and some gloves, to bury Karen's corpse in the deep dark woods?"
Metal_Zealot@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 2y
No no no, James, Mary, and Jack went to the market last Saturday to buy a shovel, a black bag, and some flashlights, to bury Karen's corpse in the deep dark woods
margaritox@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
English can do that too, but it’s not really a “proper” way of doing it. The proper way would be to say “is that food?”
There are languages where the only way to pose a question is to change the intonation.
Littleborat@feddit.de · 1 pts · 2y
But doesn't the intonation simply go up in the end? So it's good enough to stumble over the ? in the end.
margaritox@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
I honestly haven’t paid attention where it starts going up. But I always thought that doing the two “?”s in Spanish was pretty clever for that reason.
octoperson@sh.itjust.works · 22 pts · 2y
¿What if you just used them anyway?
¡Problem solved!
Anamana@feddit.de · 6 pts · 2y
Yeah that's true for any language really
IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social · 11 pts · 2y
Not really. In my language subject and verb get switched around in a question. So you immediately know it’s a question when you start reading the sentence.
Anamana@feddit.de · 3 pts · 2y
Can you give me an example?
Edit: Ok thanks guys, I got it :D
araozu@lemm.ee · 4 pts · 2y
Maybe
but taken to the extreme?
IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social · 3 pts · 2y
Hij schreef een bericht. (He wrote a message)
Schreef hij een bericht? (Did he wrote a message?)
stebo02@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 2y
Zeg eens, waarom wil je zo graag met een CEO slapen?
IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social · 1 pts · 2y
Fuck Spez daarom
stebo02@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 2y
nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org · 1 pts · 2y
I know you already got it but a few others came to my mind:
Finnish, which not a tonal language:
Japanese:
I think you'll find the pattern of question words/suffixes in nearly every language that is not explicitly tonal.
Anamana@feddit.de · 2 pts · 2y
Yeah that's initially why I thought there was no difference to Spanish. But the difference is Spanish actually doesn't have an option where you switch subject and verb. Didn't know that :)
nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 2y
Oh. Very good point. I did not know that either.
IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social · 1 pts · 2y
Kidplayer_666@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 2y
É de facto irritante. Nada como estar na escola e um prof pede para ler. Estás calmamente a ler o texto e de repente tens de forçar a porcaria da entoação para sobrecompensar o facto de que não reparaste que era uma pergunta
lorty@lemmy.ml · 21 pts · 2y
It's so you can start reading a sentence in the correct intonation
magnetosphere@kbin.social · 22 pts · 2y
This can’t be right. It’s far too simple and logical. I’m a native English speaker, and I’m used to grammar that’s nonsensical and inconsistent.
araozu@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 2y
In spanish questions intonation changes occur only on the last word(s), not the whole sentence. I'm not a linguistic, but I think it's so you can be sure a sentence is a question from the start.
When reading english sometimes I assume a sentence is an affirmation until I see the question mark, and then I have to reinterpret the sentence. I wonder how it is for native english speakers. Do they assume nothing until the sentence is finished?
dustyData@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
In English most questions stay flat and only raises the pitch on the last syllable, if any. In Spanish we can raise the pitch on the first word and stay flat for the rest of the question. That's what's useful about the ¿
araozu@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 2y
Solo me fijé en la ultima palabra, no en la primera. Tal vez nunca me di cuenta que si cambia
lorty@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 2y
You are indeed right, my explanation was poor. But for other languages it is very common to get surprised at the end of sentences, yes.
bleistift2@feddit.de · 3 pts · 2y
*either
Grammar nazi out.
0x4E4F@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 2y
Yes, that would be better 👍.
octoperson@sh.itjust.works · 20 pts · 2y
🙃 me gusta ☺️
victron@programming.dev · 18 pts · 2y
(Latin American fellow) At first I thought this was an Australia-style joke, because there are Spanish speaking countries in both hemispheres. Yep, I can overthink stuff and still be an idiot lol
namelivia@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 2y
¿Dónde está la gracia?
fossilesque@mander.xyz · 20 pts · 2y
araozu@lemm.ee · 7 pts · 2y
!No corren en el hospital cabrones¡
Chetzemoka@startrek.website · 6 pts · 2y
También no mueran en el hospital, cabrones.
Con amor, una enfermera
Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 10 pts · 2y
I fixed it
Guajojo@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
To be fair that rule is almost lost, only the autocorrect still adds the initial ?
Hazewind@artemis.camp · 6 pts · 2y
Just like how in Dutch the second quotation mark is supposed to be on the bottom. But I don't even know how to do that on the computer.
wischi@programming.dev · 4 pts · 2y
Also in German. Word autocorrects that for example.
joranvar@feddit.nl · 1 pts · 2y
The opening quotation marks should be on the bottom, but it's been a while since I wrote them that way. Luckily, the wiki page (in Dutch) shows how they can be entered in three common OSes (see: unicode), so I'll try my best to revive the correct usage again.
Also, I don't think it is considered incorrect to use top quotation marks on a computer any longer.
margaritox@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
In Slavic languages too
sleepy555@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
pewgar_seemsimandroid@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2y
¿sin cinco?
expatriado@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y