You seem to imply that we have to maintain the same decorum in anonymous online spaces as we do in real life.
I feel like here lies the root of our disagreement.
One one hand you are right, I do imply that there are similarities between anonymous online spaces and real life public spaces.
On of them is consequences: the people on the other side of the screen can be hurt by what we say as much as they would be if these things had been said to their face and this should make us be mindful of what we choose to write and what we keep for ourselves or only share with friends in private spaces.
On the other hand, you've been mentioning political correctness and decorum as reasons for which I would criticize your post. I don't feel like I'm big on either, be it online or IRL (as a vegan I've been politically incorrect and have lacked decorum in a online and IRL discussions and would do it again in the same circonstances). But to me, reinforcing the toxicity of a public space (online or IRL) for an oppressed category is never a good thing and I try to avoid it. As for why I believe your first post belongs in this catagory, I've explained it as clearly as I could in my previous answer and I don't think I can provide anything more.
When I’m online I can allow myself to be pure ego, because that’s the point of anonymity in the internet. I will continue to enjoy that as long as I can. Anything can be offensive to someone so I don’t worry too much about what is or isn’t offensive, especially so in anonymous online spaces.
Again, IMO focusing on the offensiveness is missing the point.
For example, were I to write FUCK YOU FOR MAKING LIFE HARDER FOR WOMEN IN AN ALREADY MISOGYNISTIC SOCIETY, that would be offensive to you. But I think it would still be ok because afaik we're both men talking about how to react to women's bodies and in this way neither of us belongs to a category that oppresses the other so I would not be reinforcing a toxic societal structure that makes your life and the one of people in your category harder.
To your second point. I think it is fine to sexualize all bodies, because we are sexual beings. [...] it’s perfectly fine to let your first judgement be sexual. It’s wired into us and to act otherwise is denying human nature and even animal nature itself
I don't fell like I can provide an educated enough answer to this, so what follows is just how I feel. I'm always very cautious when I read that stuff is part of human nature, or that it happens this way in nature... because of two reasons. First, lots of stuff has been said to be human nature for a time before being proven to be social conditioning. Second, it's an argument that is most of the time used to justify shitty behaviours, so...
I could offer the couter argument that in my opinion, the first judgement that happens in nature is "is this dangerous to me?" (source: none, but I also don't believe you can provide a better one for your point).
I think women should embrace it and do it to men in return. The reason women don’t is often decorum or some idea of how a woman should properly think and act
The reason is societal conditioning, which makes men behave as if women were mainly sexual objects and women behave as if their existence is conditioned by whether men find them attractive (based on criteria that change all the time). This is learned very soon in the childhood and reinforced by mainstream culture (think of the number of "romantic" comedies in which women that don't fit the current criteria for beauty are completely ignored by the man protagonist, of the number of movies that don't even pass the bechdel test...)
We can acknowledge and respect the person for who they are after we know them, but before that I think it’s perfectly fine to let your first judgement be sexual.
I'm again not trying to judge what happens in your mind, and your first judgement about someone you see or meet belongs to you alone. But I'm also saying that while we feel what we feel, we can still choose how we act. And we can take a bit of time to think about how our actions (and what we say or write) affects the individuals that receive them and in which societal dynamic they fit. And for me that's a better measure of respect than the vague impression that somewhere in our mind we respect the person. I usually respect the woman next to me in the street by not groping her ass or not making a loud comment about her cleavage, however attractive I might find them inside myself.
By no means does that mean that I reduce people simply to their sex appeal, rather that without anything else to go on, that will be my first thought. I mean I can assume a lot of things about this lady from where she is, what she’s doing, other parts of her appearance etc. But I would only be assuming. Her being hot is the only objective (her attractiveness is a fact, fite me) assessment of her I can make.
The problem here is that no one can know what happens in your mind. The only thing anyone can know objectively is how you act, and in this case what you write. And what you wrote was taking attention from an important fight to divert it to subjective bodily (not gonna fite you because that's not who I am, but I'm not gonna agree with you either) comments about perceived hotness.
So for all effects and purposes, independantly of what happens in your mind, you actually reduced this person to their sex appeal in a public space and I really don't think that is ok.
Thanks for taking part in this discussion in good faith. I'm going to stop here for two reasons. First, IMO we've both made our points and positions quite clear and I don't think we can provide further useful material. Second, I'm about to shout insults at you and I don't believe a productive discussion can happen after that.
So in a nutshell, I think humans better as monke and I allow myself to be monke online if I feel like it.
FUCK YOU FOR MAKING LIFE HARDER FOR WOMEN IN AN ALREADY MISOGYNISTIC SOCIETY AND IF YOU'RE SUCH A MONKEY GO EAT SOME FUCKING BANANAS IN A FUCKING TREE INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A SHITTY MAN THAT OBJECTIFIES WOMEN!!! (oops, looks like I'm lacking decorum)
I knew the comment was insensitive due to what it’s happening but I wanted to say it
I'm a bit surprised you don't seem to see what's wrong with this.
Would you mind explaining why you find it ok to write offensive things that are only tangentially related to the topic?
Yes I sexualize female bodies because I find them sexually attractive
What happens in your mind belongs to you and I'm not judging that.
On the other hand, posting it in a public place - especially commenting a news article about a fight for their rights - just adds to the societal misogynistic habit that it's ok to sexualize fem bodies anytime, anywhere and to care less about their message than the way we see them.
Downvote me, that’s why the mechanism is there
I don't feel like it's an appropriate response, I'd rather engage in the discussion for two reasons:
I might be able to get to you and change your mind a bit or you might have arguments that'll make me rethink my position, downvoting has no chance of getting us there
For the other people reading the comments here, seeing the discussion between us might help them understand the issue better and make their mind about it
Imo, the issue in your comment is not the fact that it might not be politcally correct - that's sounded kind of like a preemptive strawman.
It's that once more a body perceived as feminine is sexualized.
These people were protesting for their rights, not hoping to be ogled and commented upon by strangers on the internet.
Also, not everyone is attracted to the same traits in another person.
Ty for the point about the UN conference timeline, I did not know that.
I really hope we are gonna support it all the way and that it's gonna economically and politically hurt Netanyaou's regime 🤞🤞 but I'm not holding my breath. May the future prove me wrong :)
And another time posturing, while afaik we didn't go back on saying that we were not going to arrest Netanyaou if he comes to visit France.
Macron's cronies virtue signaling while paving the way for the far right and fascism as usual.
Been happy for a few years using EndeavourOS, arch-based newbie-friendly gaming-ready distribution. Also ships kde by default so might be something you want to look at ;)
IPCC has been stating for at least the 3 last reports that a comprehensive litterature review led to the conclusion that reducing inegality in general is necessary to fight climate change.
To keep using your metaphor, when you have a severe fever due to an infection, you usually want to treat the fever because although it's a symptom it can hurt/kill you if left alone.
Having extremist/neo-nazis/fascist parties participate in the elections and maybe winning them (hello USA) makes it a lot more difficult to treat the root causes. The less space, means and influence they are given, the better.
This being said, I agree with you that once the dangerous symptom has been treated, we need to treat the root causes or the symptom is going to come back.
You walk into a shop with a megaphone and start taunting people through it, you deserve what you get, regardless of why you were doing it.
In my opinion you lost the right of not being talked to in a dickish way when you wrote this. If according to you physically assaulting people who try to make the world better is justified, I'm not gonna answer politely and wait the slap on the other cheek.
So I prove your point by expressing my disagreement and providing arguments? Effective tactics, I can't argue with that.
If I made you feel better about yourself and more sure that you're right I missed my target but you're welcome anyway.
Have a nice one.
It's always great when people who aren't trying to change things explain to us (vegans, environmentalists, feminists etc.) that we do not protest the right way ™ and that we don't have the correct targets/methods.
Usually this is a byproduct of people not wanting to be bothered changing anything and pointing the finger towards other actors:
While I agree that only going after end-of-chain customers is unlikely to create at-scale change in the meat rape, torture and murder industry, it still has some effects.
Also these actions are a good way to build a community sentiment for the people included and incrementally go after other types of action.
For example, in the Extinction Rebellion movement, lots of activists started with legal protests, then illegal protests and road blocking and eventually a few of them built up to direct action against carbon-emitting industrial sites.
You also have to understand that the risk level is not the same when you go after customers and when you go after the industries.
Retail workers aren't paid enough to deal with some self important asshole who thinks that screaming at people through a megaphone is their right.
They aren't paid enough, period. I only hope that the activists only went after the customers and not the workers (which seems to be the case here, otherwise the article would probably have mentionned it).
Protest the horrible meat industry by making their lives hell, don't go after the consumer go after the source ffs, but that would mean actually putting in effort to your cause, which these megaphone blasting people don't want to do.
See higher. Also, as a general principle, fuck your opinion of what it means to put effort in a cause. Being in a place where most people dislike/hate your cause in a world where other activists have been assaulted and injured by assholes is already a fucking effort.
These people are why us non vegans have an issue with vegans, most of you are chill people enjoying your life, but these pricks make you lot look insane and then you defend them because you agree with their message, but while you defend their message, you also defend their actions!
Nah, be honest at some point.
We vegans are not chill people enjoying out lives, we are decent people trying to function in a dystopian world where the industrial mass murder of hundreds of billions of sentient beings every year is considered normal in the name of culture and/or pleasure.
The root of non-vegan opposition is the same as the root of big-car-lovers and masculinists opposition: acknowledging the truth would be too hard because it would mean acknowledging how much suffering you have caused. And it's not entirely your fault, we've all been raised the same way, made to consider this was normal.
So any movement asking you to reconsider puts your brain in a very uncomfortable position, to which you react with rejection. And because no one wants to look like an asshole, you pick the group you deem most extreme and play the "I have no issue with vegans, but these vegans are a bit much and do a disservice to the cause" card - which is universally used to oppose societal progress whatever the topic.
Start holding these people accountable for making the rest of you look bad, I know most of you vegans are good people, you don't deserve to be made to look like idiots.
Once again, thanks a lot for sharing your wisdom about a movement you are not part of. We all were really waiting for your input to decide how to treat our allies.
I hace no idea how serious a blow this is. Can anyone provide any sense of magnitude for these 264 000 tons of munitions? Like how big a chunk of total ammunition stockpile woukd this be? How big is it compared to current manufacturing rate?
This. I can't afford reliable always-on storage now, but I plan to build for SSDs rather than HDDs because I don't have a separate room to put it into.
In case someone went from windows in the 2000's to Linux in the 2020's and misses Winamp:
I feel like here lies the root of our disagreement.
One one hand you are right, I do imply that there are similarities between anonymous online spaces and real life public spaces.
On of them is consequences: the people on the other side of the screen can be hurt by what we say as much as they would be if these things had been said to their face and this should make us be mindful of what we choose to write and what we keep for ourselves or only share with friends in private spaces.
On the other hand, you've been mentioning political correctness and decorum as reasons for which I would criticize your post. I don't feel like I'm big on either, be it online or IRL (as a vegan I've been politically incorrect and have lacked decorum in a online and IRL discussions and would do it again in the same circonstances). But to me, reinforcing the toxicity of a public space (online or IRL) for an oppressed category is never a good thing and I try to avoid it. As for why I believe your first post belongs in this catagory, I've explained it as clearly as I could in my previous answer and I don't think I can provide anything more.
Again, IMO focusing on the offensiveness is missing the point.
For example, were I to write FUCK YOU FOR MAKING LIFE HARDER FOR WOMEN IN AN ALREADY MISOGYNISTIC SOCIETY, that would be offensive to you. But I think it would still be ok because afaik we're both men talking about how to react to women's bodies and in this way neither of us belongs to a category that oppresses the other so I would not be reinforcing a toxic societal structure that makes your life and the one of people in your category harder.
I don't fell like I can provide an educated enough answer to this, so what follows is just how I feel. I'm always very cautious when I read that stuff is part of human nature, or that it happens this way in nature... because of two reasons. First, lots of stuff has been said to be human nature for a time before being proven to be social conditioning. Second, it's an argument that is most of the time used to justify shitty behaviours, so...
I could offer the couter argument that in my opinion, the first judgement that happens in nature is "is this dangerous to me?" (source: none, but I also don't believe you can provide a better one for your point).
The reason is societal conditioning, which makes men behave as if women were mainly sexual objects and women behave as if their existence is conditioned by whether men find them attractive (based on criteria that change all the time). This is learned very soon in the childhood and reinforced by mainstream culture (think of the number of "romantic" comedies in which women that don't fit the current criteria for beauty are completely ignored by the man protagonist, of the number of movies that don't even pass the bechdel test...)
I'm again not trying to judge what happens in your mind, and your first judgement about someone you see or meet belongs to you alone. But I'm also saying that while we feel what we feel, we can still choose how we act. And we can take a bit of time to think about how our actions (and what we say or write) affects the individuals that receive them and in which societal dynamic they fit. And for me that's a better measure of respect than the vague impression that somewhere in our mind we respect the person. I usually respect the woman next to me in the street by not groping her ass or not making a loud comment about her cleavage, however attractive I might find them inside myself.
The problem here is that no one can know what happens in your mind. The only thing anyone can know objectively is how you act, and in this case what you write. And what you wrote was taking attention from an important fight to divert it to subjective bodily (not gonna fite you because that's not who I am, but I'm not gonna agree with you either) comments about perceived hotness.
So for all effects and purposes, independantly of what happens in your mind, you actually reduced this person to their sex appeal in a public space and I really don't think that is ok.
Thanks for taking part in this discussion in good faith. I'm going to stop here for two reasons. First, IMO we've both made our points and positions quite clear and I don't think we can provide further useful material. Second, I'm about to shout insults at you and I don't believe a productive discussion can happen after that.
FUCK YOU FOR MAKING LIFE HARDER FOR WOMEN IN AN ALREADY MISOGYNISTIC SOCIETY AND IF YOU'RE SUCH A MONKEY GO EAT SOME FUCKING BANANAS IN A FUCKING TREE INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A SHITTY MAN THAT OBJECTIFIES WOMEN!!! (oops, looks like I'm lacking decorum)
Thanks for your kind words <3
I'm a bit surprised you don't seem to see what's wrong with this.
Would you mind explaining why you find it ok to write offensive things that are only tangentially related to the topic?
What happens in your mind belongs to you and I'm not judging that.
On the other hand, posting it in a public place - especially commenting a news article about a fight for their rights - just adds to the societal misogynistic habit that it's ok to sexualize fem bodies anytime, anywhere and to care less about their message than the way we see them.
I don't feel like it's an appropriate response, I'd rather engage in the discussion for two reasons:
Imo, the issue in your comment is not the fact that it might not be politcally correct - that's sounded kind of like a preemptive strawman.
It's that once more a body perceived as feminine is sexualized.
These people were protesting for their rights, not hoping to be ogled and commented upon by strangers on the internet.
Also, not everyone is attracted to the same traits in another person.
Ty for the point about the UN conference timeline, I did not know that.
I really hope we are gonna support it all the way and that it's gonna economically and politically hurt Netanyaou's regime 🤞🤞 but I'm not holding my breath. May the future prove me wrong :)
And another time posturing, while afaik we didn't go back on saying that we were not going to arrest Netanyaou if he comes to visit France.
Macron's cronies virtue signaling while paving the way for the far right and fascism as usual.
Been happy for a few years using EndeavourOS, arch-based newbie-friendly gaming-ready distribution. Also ships kde by default so might be something you want to look at ;)
IPCC has been stating for at least the 3 last reports that a comprehensive litterature review led to the conclusion that reducing inegality in general is necessary to fight climate change.
To keep using your metaphor, when you have a severe fever due to an infection, you usually want to treat the fever because although it's a symptom it can hurt/kill you if left alone.
Having extremist/neo-nazis/fascist parties participate in the elections and maybe winning them (hello USA) makes it a lot more difficult to treat the root causes. The less space, means and influence they are given, the better.
This being said, I agree with you that once the dangerous symptom has been treated, we need to treat the root causes or the symptom is going to come back.
Thank you for your service, these intelligent emotion-capable animals ain't gonna murder themselves, we need more people like you! 👍
Thank you for this argumented and useful answer. Have a nice day.
See your other comment:
In my opinion you lost the right of not being talked to in a dickish way when you wrote this. If according to you physically assaulting people who try to make the world better is justified, I'm not gonna answer politely and wait the slap on the other cheek.
So I prove your point by expressing my disagreement and providing arguments? Effective tactics, I can't argue with that.
If I made you feel better about yourself and more sure that you're right I missed my target but you're welcome anyway.
Have a nice one.
It's always great when people who aren't trying to change things explain to us (vegans, environmentalists, feminists etc.) that we do not protest the right way ™ and that we don't have the correct targets/methods.
Usually this is a byproduct of people not wanting to be bothered changing anything and pointing the finger towards other actors:
While I agree that only going after end-of-chain customers is unlikely to create at-scale change in the
meatrape, torture and murder industry, it still has some effects.Also these actions are a good way to build a community sentiment for the people included and incrementally go after other types of action.
For example, in the Extinction Rebellion movement, lots of activists started with legal protests, then illegal protests and road blocking and eventually a few of them built up to direct action against carbon-emitting industrial sites.
You also have to understand that the risk level is not the same when you go after customers and when you go after the industries.
They aren't paid enough, period. I only hope that the activists only went after the customers and not the workers (which seems to be the case here, otherwise the article would probably have mentionned it).
See higher. Also, as a general principle, fuck your opinion of what it means to put effort in a cause. Being in a place where most people dislike/hate your cause in a world where other activists have been assaulted and injured by assholes is already a fucking effort.
Nah, be honest at some point.
We vegans are not chill people enjoying out lives, we are decent people trying to function in a dystopian world where the industrial mass murder of hundreds of billions of sentient beings every year is considered normal in the name of culture and/or pleasure.
The root of non-vegan opposition is the same as the root of big-car-lovers and masculinists opposition: acknowledging the truth would be too hard because it would mean acknowledging how much suffering you have caused. And it's not entirely your fault, we've all been raised the same way, made to consider this was normal.
So any movement asking you to reconsider puts your brain in a very uncomfortable position, to which you react with rejection. And because no one wants to look like an asshole, you pick the group you deem most extreme and play the "I have no issue with vegans, but these vegans are a bit much and do a disservice to the cause" card - which is universally used to oppose societal progress whatever the topic.
Once again, thanks a lot for sharing your wisdom about a movement you are not part of. We all were really waiting for your input to decide how to treat our allies.
Edits: spelling
I hace no idea how serious a blow this is. Can anyone provide any sense of magnitude for these 264 000 tons of munitions? Like how big a chunk of total ammunition stockpile woukd this be? How big is it compared to current manufacturing rate?
Black Mesaer?
I knew I couldn't be the only one thinking of another HL3 when I saw the image :)
This. I can't afford reliable always-on storage now, but I plan to build for SSDs rather than HDDs because I don't have a separate room to put it into.
For most consumers it might not, the amount of nvidia
propagandaadvertisement in games is huge.