Warum lese ich eigentlich immer, dass Banking Apps "sowieso" installiert sind? Habe grade mein Ubuntu Touch und mein postmarketOS smartphones gecheckt. Nein, es hat sich immer noch keine banking app magisch materialisiert.
That's a lot of marketing speak for not answering the only question that matters: do banks that currently allow paying with ideal in the browser without an android/ios app continue to support this or will they force everyone into the google/apple ecosystem like all banks so far?
Signal does not care about anyone who does not use android or ios and offers no official way to create an account without them. I wouldn't call that accessible.
That's why Taler has native apps in the google play store, the apple app store, fdroid and a direct apk download. And still it does not prevent me from using it on other devices like Wero does.
Are you both arguing that we don't need banking on anything but iOS and Android because people won't switch, and that people won't switch because banking only works on iOS and Android?
Btw: Banking works of course on my non-Android/non-iOS Smartphones. Somehow the banks have zero trust issues in letting me use their Onlinebanking Website from these devices. With my hardware QR Tan generator I can easily make instant SEPA transfers using these devices. But if I see a Wero QR code, I have no means to send money to the receiver.
A mass-adopted Taler-based payment system would also require mobile support, which would be gatekept by Google/Apple.
I can use the Taler firefox addon literally today on my Shift 6mq with postmarketOS with no compatibility layers.
Yea the UI isn't great, but it already today is usable everywhere where firefox is usable, and unlike Wero, the client source code is available and the UX can be improved independently.
I saw people say this a couple of times and still don't quite know what that means.
I mean I will respect EPI's wishes for only Android and iOS users to use Wero, and not use it, but can't say I understand what "Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good." in this context is supposed to tell me.
Feel free to ignore my rants btw, I know they are inconsequential. It's just that you can only read so many threads about mobile operating systems that aren't US controlled where someone immediately goes "But will my banking app work on this?" "I can't use this if my banking app doesn't work on it" "I need my banking app to work to use this" "banking app" "banking app" "banking app". Personally I've never used one of those banking apps and don't plan to, as long as they are platform locked and have no open documented interfaces, but they are obviously just one of the many pieces of software that prevent people from using something other than an US controlled mobile OS.
I don't quite remember if it was https://archive.fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/eu_app_stores/ but it have been. I had still "pirated" my public transport app from the google play store for an android phone without play services at this time and briefly talked with the speaker about it. I think that was the time that really convinced me to just not support any exclusive apps anymore. I mean in the end it doesn't matter if it was that specific talk or not, because the issues stay the same, only the years change.
they = EPI in this case, but we can also dream that the European Union as a whole could mandate that "critical infrastructure" (to be defined) must be available outside of american app stores.
Sideload from where? Aurora Store works by using a pool of real Google Accounts that google may ban at any time. Third party websites that host android apps typically won't have a license to redistribute proprietary apps, but they also are somewhat tolerated I guess. On top of that the typical end user will have a hard time verifying that apps from third party hosting sites will not be tampered with and re-signed with a different key.
With banking apps it's also like 50:50 if they work on an AOSP phone without google play services, or on aliendalvik on SailfishOS or on waydroid on Ubuntu Touch and other open smartphone OS. Personally on my Ubuntu Touch phone I don't bother with waydroid, running a stripped down android in a container doesn't seem like a good model to me. If Europe actually wants to "standardize" on Android Apps, we should first have a portable android runtime with a well defined set of APIs that apps are restricted to using in order to be portable.
They could have mandated to integrate Wero into Onlinebanking web interfaces, right next to instant SEPA transactions. They could have made Wero an open API like extending the 20+ year old HBCI/FinTS standards. Lock in to proprietary apps exclusively distributed in google's and apple's store is a conscious choice and not one I need to find "better" than anything else.
GNU Taler shows how you can do it right, but of course for really open systems there is no big ad campaign money.
I'm not on Signal because Signal thinks you should only be able to create an account on an android or ios device so I respect their wishes and don't create one.
Europe fears that the disabling of the systems of, for example, Mastercard and Visa can be used to put political pressure on the continent. European banks believe that Wero should become the European alternative to this.
If google and apple remove the european banking apps from their stores, there is no official channel to get to wero anymore. The google play store and apple app store most likely has the ability to uninstall apps without user interaction too.
People who don't like this dependency in the first place will not be using wero anyway.
Am I just living in a different reality to everyone else?
Zink merged support for it a couple months ago: MESA_LOADER_DRIVER_OVERRIDE=zink . But yea godot's mobile Vulkan renderer will likely be a better choice.
Looking at the website, twint is only available on android and ios too. Being cynical about it, they probably will cooperate with wero because the systems keeping people locked into the mobile operating systems of american big tech will need to work together to provide so much value that people won't realistically opt out from running iOS or google play services on their devices.
Das Gute ist: Das funktioniert auch sobald Wero und deine Banking app auf deinem Linux Phone laufen.
Was ist denn gut daran? Paypal kann man seit 20+ Jahren im Browser auf jedem Gerät verwenden, auch auf meinem Ubuntu Touch smartphone.
Bei wero könnte ich jetzt versuchen, rechtlich grau das apk meiner banking app aus dem google play store zu laden (was google eigentlich ohne play store nicht offiziell erlaubt), und ich könnte versuchen, ob es mit waydroid läuft. Darauf habe ich aber keinen Bock, solange es keine standardisierte android runtime gibt, die apps targeten, und zudem die meisten banking apps auch noch aktiv Beschränkungen haben wie dass der user keine root rechte haben darf.
Früher haben Banken noch ein bisschen vorausschauend gehandelt. Da hat man mit HBCI und FinTS komplett offen dokumentierte Protokolle gemacht, die jeder in open source apps implementieren kann. Wero hätte z.B. einfach eine offene Erweiterung von HBCI/FinTS für Echtzeitüberweisungen im Laden sein können, aber nein, sowas macht man heute nicht mehr, alles muss eine proprietäre App sein.
Ich glaube nicht daran, dass in absehbarer Zeit Banking Apps offiziell auf Smartphones ohne Sicherheitstheater laufen. So wie ich das verstanden habe, ist das ganze Problem nämlich, dass für klassische Überweisungen eine "sichere" TAN zwingend vorausgesetzt wird. Dann haben sich die Leute aber gedacht, dass es unpraktisch ist, einen TAN Generator mit sich herumzutragen und bei jedem Bezahlen seine Karte einzustecken, einen Code zu fotografieren und dann die TAN einzugeben, wenn man stattdessen gleich mit der Karte zahlen könnte. Also "musste" man so tun, als ob google und apple attestieren können, dass ein Smartphone "sicher" ist, damit man damit TANs generieren kann. Macht ja nichts, wenn das Smartphone voller nach Hause telefonierender chinesischer crapware ist und seit 8 Jahren keine Sicherheitsupdates mehr bekommen hat, hauptsache Google Play Attestation tut so, als sei das Smartphone sicher. Also klar gibt es einige Banking apps, die auch auf AOSP roms ohne google play laufen, aber ich würde wetten, dass das komplett inoffiziell ist und die Banken nur zu faul sind, die "Sicherheits"features auch richtig zu implementieren.
Der Vollständigkeit halber habe ich noch ChatGPT gefragt und das hat mir tatsächlich eine Ausnahme ausgespuckt: Ein Entwickler bei der Triodos Bank (eine sogenannte "ethische Bank") hat sich tatsächlich darum gekümmert, dass deren App auf Graphene OS läuft: https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/issues/133#issuecomment-3087638715. Die gibt es zwar auch in Deutschland, war bei mir aber nicht in der engeren Auswahl, weil Utopia berichtet, dass sie sich aus dem deutschen Markt zurückzieht.
Wie auch sonst?
GNU Taler macht ĂĽbrigens ganz praktisch vor, wie sonst es gehen kann. Zwar empfehlen auch die fĂĽr Ubuntu Touch waydroid, aber ich denke, die firefox extension wird auch funktionieren. Ich bin deshalb auch zu der Bank gewechselt, die Taler unterstĂĽtzen will und jetzt schon finanziell unterstĂĽtzt.
But you understand that when VR headset makers and game developers read your comment, this is all they will take away from it ^.
"oh sweet, people won't leave windows, so we only have to support one operating system and can save the money we would have to spend to support linux", right?
Warum lese ich eigentlich immer, dass Banking Apps "sowieso" installiert sind? Habe grade mein Ubuntu Touch und mein postmarketOS smartphones gecheckt. Nein, es hat sich immer noch keine banking app magisch materialisiert.
und giropay ging auch im browser.
That's a lot of marketing speak for not answering the only question that matters: do banks that currently allow paying with ideal in the browser without an android/ios app continue to support this or will they force everyone into the google/apple ecosystem like all banks so far?
Signal does not care about anyone who does not use android or ios and offers no official way to create an account without them. I wouldn't call that accessible.
That's why Taler has native apps in the google play store, the apple app store, fdroid and a direct apk download. And still it does not prevent me from using it on other devices like Wero does.
Are you both arguing that we don't need banking on anything but iOS and Android because people won't switch, and that people won't switch because banking only works on iOS and Android?
Btw: Banking works of course on my non-Android/non-iOS Smartphones. Somehow the banks have zero trust issues in letting me use their Onlinebanking Website from these devices. With my hardware QR Tan generator I can easily make instant SEPA transfers using these devices. But if I see a Wero QR code, I have no means to send money to the receiver.
I can use the Taler firefox addon literally today on my Shift 6mq with postmarketOS with no compatibility layers.
Yea the UI isn't great, but it already today is usable everywhere where firefox is usable, and unlike Wero, the client source code is available and the UX can be improved independently.
I saw people say this a couple of times and still don't quite know what that means.
I mean I will respect EPI's wishes for only Android and iOS users to use Wero, and not use it, but can't say I understand what "Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good." in this context is supposed to tell me.
Feel free to ignore my rants btw, I know they are inconsequential. It's just that you can only read so many threads about mobile operating systems that aren't US controlled where someone immediately goes "But will my banking app work on this?" "I can't use this if my banking app doesn't work on it" "I need my banking app to work to use this" "banking app" "banking app" "banking app". Personally I've never used one of those banking apps and don't plan to, as long as they are platform locked and have no open documented interfaces, but they are obviously just one of the many pieces of software that prevent people from using something other than an US controlled mobile OS.
I don't quite remember if it was https://archive.fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/eu_app_stores/ but it have been. I had still "pirated" my public transport app from the google play store for an android phone without play services at this time and briefly talked with the speaker about it. I think that was the time that really convinced me to just not support any exclusive apps anymore. I mean in the end it doesn't matter if it was that specific talk or not, because the issues stay the same, only the years change.
and why don't they do that now?
they = EPI in this case, but we can also dream that the European Union as a whole could mandate that "critical infrastructure" (to be defined) must be available outside of american app stores.
Sideload from where? Aurora Store works by using a pool of real Google Accounts that google may ban at any time. Third party websites that host android apps typically won't have a license to redistribute proprietary apps, but they also are somewhat tolerated I guess. On top of that the typical end user will have a hard time verifying that apps from third party hosting sites will not be tampered with and re-signed with a different key.
With banking apps it's also like 50:50 if they work on an AOSP phone without google play services, or on aliendalvik on SailfishOS or on waydroid on Ubuntu Touch and other open smartphone OS. Personally on my Ubuntu Touch phone I don't bother with waydroid, running a stripped down android in a container doesn't seem like a good model to me. If Europe actually wants to "standardize" on Android Apps, we should first have a portable android runtime with a well defined set of APIs that apps are restricted to using in order to be portable.
They could have mandated to integrate Wero into Onlinebanking web interfaces, right next to instant SEPA transactions. They could have made Wero an open API like extending the 20+ year old HBCI/FinTS standards. Lock in to proprietary apps exclusively distributed in google's and apple's store is a conscious choice and not one I need to find "better" than anything else.
GNU Taler shows how you can do it right, but of course for really open systems there is no big ad campaign money.
I'm not on Signal because Signal thinks you should only be able to create an account on an android or ios device so I respect their wishes and don't create one.
If google and apple remove the european banking apps from their stores, there is no official channel to get to wero anymore. The google play store and apple app store most likely has the ability to uninstall apps without user interaction too.
People who don't like this dependency in the first place will not be using wero anyway.
Am I just living in a different reality to everyone else?
Zink merged support for it a couple months ago:
MESA_LOADER_DRIVER_OVERRIDE=zink. But yea godot'smobileVulkan renderer will likely be a better choice.Looking at the website, twint is only available on android and ios too. Being cynical about it, they probably will cooperate with wero because the systems keeping people locked into the mobile operating systems of american big tech will need to work together to provide so much value that people won't realistically opt out from running iOS or google play services on their devices.
Was ist denn gut daran? Paypal kann man seit 20+ Jahren im Browser auf jedem Gerät verwenden, auch auf meinem Ubuntu Touch smartphone.
Bei wero könnte ich jetzt versuchen, rechtlich grau das apk meiner banking app aus dem google play store zu laden (was google eigentlich ohne play store nicht offiziell erlaubt), und ich könnte versuchen, ob es mit waydroid läuft. Darauf habe ich aber keinen Bock, solange es keine standardisierte android runtime gibt, die apps targeten, und zudem die meisten banking apps auch noch aktiv Beschränkungen haben wie dass der user keine root rechte haben darf.
Früher haben Banken noch ein bisschen vorausschauend gehandelt. Da hat man mit HBCI und FinTS komplett offen dokumentierte Protokolle gemacht, die jeder in open source apps implementieren kann. Wero hätte z.B. einfach eine offene Erweiterung von HBCI/FinTS für Echtzeitüberweisungen im Laden sein können, aber nein, sowas macht man heute nicht mehr, alles muss eine proprietäre App sein.
Ich glaube nicht daran, dass in absehbarer Zeit Banking Apps offiziell auf Smartphones ohne Sicherheitstheater laufen. So wie ich das verstanden habe, ist das ganze Problem nämlich, dass für klassische Überweisungen eine "sichere" TAN zwingend vorausgesetzt wird. Dann haben sich die Leute aber gedacht, dass es unpraktisch ist, einen TAN Generator mit sich herumzutragen und bei jedem Bezahlen seine Karte einzustecken, einen Code zu fotografieren und dann die TAN einzugeben, wenn man stattdessen gleich mit der Karte zahlen könnte. Also "musste" man so tun, als ob google und apple attestieren können, dass ein Smartphone "sicher" ist, damit man damit TANs generieren kann. Macht ja nichts, wenn das Smartphone voller nach Hause telefonierender chinesischer crapware ist und seit 8 Jahren keine Sicherheitsupdates mehr bekommen hat, hauptsache Google Play Attestation tut so, als sei das Smartphone sicher. Also klar gibt es einige Banking apps, die auch auf AOSP roms ohne google play laufen, aber ich würde wetten, dass das komplett inoffiziell ist und die Banken nur zu faul sind, die "Sicherheits"features auch richtig zu implementieren.
Der Vollständigkeit halber habe ich noch ChatGPT gefragt und das hat mir tatsächlich eine Ausnahme ausgespuckt: Ein Entwickler bei der Triodos Bank (eine sogenannte "ethische Bank") hat sich tatsächlich darum gekümmert, dass deren App auf Graphene OS läuft: https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/issues/133#issuecomment-3087638715. Die gibt es zwar auch in Deutschland, war bei mir aber nicht in der engeren Auswahl, weil Utopia berichtet, dass sie sich aus dem deutschen Markt zurückzieht.
GNU Taler macht ĂĽbrigens ganz praktisch vor, wie sonst es gehen kann. Zwar empfehlen auch die fĂĽr Ubuntu Touch waydroid, aber ich denke, die firefox extension wird auch funktionieren. Ich bin deshalb auch zu der Bank gewechselt, die Taler unterstĂĽtzen will und jetzt schon finanziell unterstĂĽtzt.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/Anorak/monado/-/compare/main...master?from_project_id=2685 Pretty old code...
But you understand that when VR headset makers and game developers read your comment, this is all they will take away from it ^.
"oh sweet, people won't leave windows, so we only have to support one operating system and can save the money we would have to spend to support linux", right?