I think the implied question is how they started behind the advanced capitalist nations and came to rival or better them. Part of the literacy drive in China, for example was to shift from traditional to simplified characters. I'm actually curious as to whether any other (capitalist) country has done or could do anything similar. And whether this could be achieved without exercising state authority.
Stalin’s first five year plan changed that for tens of millions as they suddenly had running water, electricity and public schooling/vocational training.
I applaud you for acknowledging the benefits of socialism even though it sounds like you disagree with it overall.
I'd encourage you, though, to think more about what "authoritarian" actually means. All states claim authority to use violence. The only limits states acknowledge on how much violence they can use are the limits they agree to (and therefore can abandon at their convenience). All states sharply respond to certain types of dissent -- certainly violent dissent, almost always dissent that (the state claims) is associated with a foreign state, and often even peaceful dissent. This applies to any liberal democracy you can name. Look at how many peaceful protesters the U.S. brutalized in 2020, look at the recent U.K. ruling on sentences for peaceful protesters blocking roads, look at how Germany preemptively bans even discussion of Nazism.
So when Cuba arrests dissenters who are backed by an extremely hostile foreign power, is that any different from what the U.S. would do? When the USSR arrested nationalist dissenters who sympathized with Nazis, is that any different than what Germany does? What actually makes these "authoritarian" countries different from the "good" ones, apart from having the audacity to reject capitalism?
Capitalist society has tried to fearmonger about vague "Authoritarianism" as long as it has been around. They were calling socialism "authoritarian" before Mao, before Stalin, before any actual socialist state even existed to use as a case study.
"Good faith" just means being willing to hear us out. Obviously I'd like it if you would change your mind, but as long as you're trying to understand our point of view(even if you don't change yours) you're still welcome here.
My point was that capitalist media of the 1800s was accusing socialism of being "authoritarian" before any socialist nations existed. How could they declare something to be "authoritarian" (or anything for that matter) before it actually existed? Does that not seem like poisoning the well?
And it seems your understanding of these nations comes solely from a western, capitalist country's interpretation of them and their system.
Are their systems "authoritarian" or are they just "different" to the system you live in?
Maybe try and read some primary sources on how they structure their system, and listen to what they say about their own system, then weigh what they say about it with what you already know, compare and contrast, that sort of thing. If the only information you get about a nation comes directly from their biggest enemies, of course you're going to think they're all horrible.
Easiest dunk is to show that the West REFUSES to let communism “fail” by itself. If socialism represented a bumbling oaf of a society, it would inevitably stumble and collapse of its own accord. No need for attacking Grenada, Vietnam, Laos with open warfare. No need to assassinate Allende or the many socialist politicians that were killed. No need to send armed forces to stop the Russian Revolution. If socialism was purely set up to fail, we wouldn’t see the PRC rising to become a major world power, etc. I could go on, but basically if it will fail, let it. Obviously the west doesn’t let it because it’s a shitty argument from the start, I GUARANTEE you that nobody (high ranking at least) in the US gov genuinely believes this. Maybe a few dumbass senators or Reps but Foreign Policy advisers, CIA/FBI, they understand that socialism is not going down on its own
We can debunk it, but that would involve the party making this claim actually having to read, think, and challenge their past assumptions. They may well do that in some contexts, but not when they're arguing in bad faith and parroting stupid lines like this one.
It’s a silly argument because it’s basically unfalsifiable. You could lay out the most rational argument for communism and it wouldn’t matter because it’s all just words on paper. It also just kind of ignores the fact that plenty of communist theory has yet to be written. We have to go through a scientific process of experimentation to figure out how to build it. We can hypothesize about how it could work but none of that is set in stone.
There's nothing to debunk because the claim itself is based on an absurd level of ignorance, they don't even know what they mean by the word communism, and it makes no sense for it to be "tried". The only consistent references that could almost make sense are these
Communism as a theoretical state of being (classless etc society) posed by me Marx (and some others) as the eventual project and outcome of the dictatorship of the proletariat. As such, it has never been "tried", it can't be "tried", it is more of a goal or state of being rather than a strategy you can adopt. Plus, that project requires that the capitalist class be deposed by the working class such that efforts in that direction could be enacted, which unfortunately has been limited by the extreme and violent reactions of imperialists. It's difficult to do that project when you're just trying to survive the sanctions and wars.
Communism as in a country run by a communist party. This has been tried, and to great success, with fantastic improvements in quality of life for those living there. What failures we do identify largely fall into two buckets: (1) targeted for destruction by imperialists and they were forced to succumb or (2) fell apart through the former and internal failures to build a robust political system, e.g. someone like Gorbachev should never have even been near the reins of power. Both can be criticized, but neither can be chalked up to, "oh dang commies can't run countries". Alsi, the largest real economy on the planet is run by a communist party and overcame over a century of colonialism and then industrialization to do it.
But really, someone saying this isn't even speaking the same language as us. It's really a conversation between two clueless liberals: one that simplistically craps on "communism" and it "failing" (without pointing to anything concrete) and the other liberal trying to say things like, "well real communism has never been tried".
In both cases, they're in need of a basic education, starting with, "what is a communist?"
Universal economic prosperity does require more than communism, just like an engineer must know more than just geometry. But engineers who deny the law of cosines tend to build shitty bridges
Can a single nation achieve communism without world revolution? AFAIK, that’s still an open question.
That doesn’t mean that even still, the socialist countries we have aren’t better for their citizens given what they have to work with than alternatives.
China doesn't have a communist economy, but to consider them a failed communist experiment, to say they aren't achieving communism, is a far stretch. China has a long-term plan for an eventual transition towards communism, and it is reaching all of the important milestones in time, like zero poverty and zero homelessness, transition towards clean energy, and infrastructure expansion; as communicated in the (current) 14th 5-year-plan and in the 2021 book 2050 China: Becoming a Great Modern Socialist Country.
First of all a quick side note, "authoritarianism" is an ill-defined and sociologically unsound concept, and there is no such thing as an "authoritarian" party or state. Isolated policies may have aspects on a sliding scale between libertarian and authoritarian, but from that you cannot infer anything about the government or the society. For instance, in 1933, selling alcohol was prohibited in the United States while it was legal in Nazi Germany, but not even the most ardent drinker would say that the US was more "authoritarian" than the Nazis based on that.
Also, the Marxist distinction between communism as the final goal of socialist society (lack of state, money, religion etc.) and socialist society itself (scarcity, need for defence against reaction, presence of state etc.) is not what the people who utter the phrase that "Communism only works on paper" typically have in mind when they say it. Their argument usually breaks down to a set of dogmatic conceptions they have about worker ownership of the means of production, economics of central planning, or quality of life under socialism.
To respond to the allegation that "Communism only works on paper" in good faith, as though it were a good-faith argument derived from the speculative nature of post-scarcity communism as opposed to actually existing socialism, is to completely ignore the context in which it is actually used, namely to signal the speaker's disinterest in having an intellectually honest discussion about the merits and demerits of socialism in concrete situations. If you try to discuss it in the terms of Marxist theory, you will quickly discover (as you did way at the top of the comment chain) that already the premise of the argument is vacuous and nonsensical.
Don't the China, Cuba, DPRK, Laos, USSR, and Vietnam count? They didn't achieve communism, but they pursue(d) it. I don't think it's fair to attribute their success to capitalism.
34 Comments
queermunist@lemmy.ml · 39 pts · 3y
Communism works on paper, but in practice it is hunted down and destroyed by the CIA :V
OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml · 29 pts · 3y
Communism always works. Every single time it has been implemented it has been a success; drastically improving the conditions of the vast majority of the lives of the people in those countries, establishing the world’s most proven successful education system, offering the only avenue for nations to escape imperialism, overthrow occupation, and develop up and out of poverty from under conditions of exploitation, eliminating unemployment, progressing science and culture more than ever before in their nation’s timeline of existence, and providing the most value-efficient and successful healthcare systems the world has ever seen.
Continuing to this day, Marxist-Leninist governments remain, in nearly every case, the absolute best government in their respective nation’s entire histories — especially for the poor and minorities — and are deeply missed by the majority of people that lived under communism (and no longer do), who also overwhelmingly regret it’s end.
Communists saved the world from Hitler and fascism, took humans to space; they united and advanced China from a backwards, subservient nation to the position of the next world superpower. Communism made Cuba an international leader in medicine, who recently saved the much richer Italy during COVID-19, developed the DPRK into a cutting edge nuclear power, and liberated more of the planet from the most powerful empires in the world — more often and more successfully — than any other ideology or system, ever before and ever
Capitalism has violently forced its way into nearly every facet of every corner of the world, and socialist states are the only projects that have ever threatened to resist, repel, and overturn that domination, and it is only Marxist-Leninist projects that have ever neared the completion of that objective, thus far, in history.
Communism works, and it works so effectively, all the time, so much so that the only way to get it to stop working is to have the most powerful empires in existence intervene in opposition to it, and even they can only boast mixed success. Communism has always worked, it will always work, and it continues to work right now, even as you continue to deny it.
LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml · 28 pts · 3y
Capitalism doesn't even work on paper or demonstrably in reality.
rjs001@lemmygrad.ml · 4 pts · 3y
rjs001@lemmygrad.ml · 24 pts · 3y
EhList@lemmy.world · -10 pts · 3y
ButtigiegMineralMap@lemmygrad.ml · 9 pts · 3y
Good point but it wouldn’t explain why their literacy rates are higher than even the West who have been industrialized and given every advantage
EhList@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3y
redtea@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
I think the implied question is how they started behind the advanced capitalist nations and came to rival or better them. Part of the literacy drive in China, for example was to shift from traditional to simplified characters. I'm actually curious as to whether any other (capitalist) country has done or could do anything similar. And whether this could be achieved without exercising state authority.
EhList@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3y
EhList@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 3y
MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml · 7 pts · 3y
So it worked
EhList@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3y
MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml · 7 pts · 3y
I applaud you for acknowledging the benefits of socialism even though it sounds like you disagree with it overall.
I'd encourage you, though, to think more about what "authoritarian" actually means. All states claim authority to use violence. The only limits states acknowledge on how much violence they can use are the limits they agree to (and therefore can abandon at their convenience). All states sharply respond to certain types of dissent -- certainly violent dissent, almost always dissent that (the state claims) is associated with a foreign state, and often even peaceful dissent. This applies to any liberal democracy you can name. Look at how many peaceful protesters the U.S. brutalized in 2020, look at the recent U.K. ruling on sentences for peaceful protesters blocking roads, look at how Germany preemptively bans even discussion of Nazism.
So when Cuba arrests dissenters who are backed by an extremely hostile foreign power, is that any different from what the U.S. would do? When the USSR arrested nationalist dissenters who sympathized with Nazis, is that any different than what Germany does? What actually makes these "authoritarian" countries different from the "good" ones, apart from having the audacity to reject capitalism?
EhList@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 3y
DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml · 5 pts · 3y
If you're here in good faith, I would recommend reading "On Authority." It isn't too long, more of a pamphlet than anything else.
https://redsails.org/on-authority/
Capitalist society has tried to fearmonger about vague "Authoritarianism" as long as it has been around. They were calling socialism "authoritarian" before Mao, before Stalin, before any actual socialist state even existed to use as a case study.
EhList@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 3y
DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml · 1 pts · 3y
"Good faith" just means being willing to hear us out. Obviously I'd like it if you would change your mind, but as long as you're trying to understand our point of view(even if you don't change yours) you're still welcome here.
My point was that capitalist media of the 1800s was accusing socialism of being "authoritarian" before any socialist nations existed. How could they declare something to be "authoritarian" (or anything for that matter) before it actually existed? Does that not seem like poisoning the well?
And it seems your understanding of these nations comes solely from a western, capitalist country's interpretation of them and their system. Are their systems "authoritarian" or are they just "different" to the system you live in? Maybe try and read some primary sources on how they structure their system, and listen to what they say about their own system, then weigh what they say about it with what you already know, compare and contrast, that sort of thing. If the only information you get about a nation comes directly from their biggest enemies, of course you're going to think they're all horrible.
EhList@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 3y
m532@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
There is no magical literacy equilibrium.
EhList@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 3y
ButtigiegMineralMap@lemmygrad.ml · 24 pts · 3y
Easiest dunk is to show that the West REFUSES to let communism “fail” by itself. If socialism represented a bumbling oaf of a society, it would inevitably stumble and collapse of its own accord. No need for attacking Grenada, Vietnam, Laos with open warfare. No need to assassinate Allende or the many socialist politicians that were killed. No need to send armed forces to stop the Russian Revolution. If socialism was purely set up to fail, we wouldn’t see the PRC rising to become a major world power, etc. I could go on, but basically if it will fail, let it. Obviously the west doesn’t let it because it’s a shitty argument from the start, I GUARANTEE you that nobody (high ranking at least) in the US gov genuinely believes this. Maybe a few dumbass senators or Reps but Foreign Policy advisers, CIA/FBI, they understand that socialism is not going down on its own
knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml · 21 pts · 3y
We can debunk it, but that would involve the party making this claim actually having to read, think, and challenge their past assumptions. They may well do that in some contexts, but not when they're arguing in bad faith and parroting stupid lines like this one.
SleepyCat@lemmygrad.ml · 16 pts · 3y
DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml · 5 pts · 3y
Exactly. It's a thought terminating cliche. For a few other common examples, look at the lib responses in this very thread!
MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
How is this not a U2 cover band somewhere?
ProbablyKaffe@lemmygrad.ml · 14 pts · 3y
Tell them to explain their logic. They will either shut up or double down on more specific, easily debunkable logic.
bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml · 14 pts · 3y
honestly i don't bother talking with people that come with childish bad faith arguments like that, it's akin to talking to a lizard.
id try approaching it by asking what exactly do they mean by "works", like works in what sense?
fire86743@lemmygrad.ml · 14 pts · 3y
"Well it's a good thing I live in paper!" /s
Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml · 5 pts · 3y
To be fair, China literally invented paper :P
EhList@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 3y
Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
Papyrus or parchment doesn’t count
EhList@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3y
cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml · 13 pts · 3y
It’s a silly argument because it’s basically unfalsifiable. You could lay out the most rational argument for communism and it wouldn’t matter because it’s all just words on paper. It also just kind of ignores the fact that plenty of communist theory has yet to be written. We have to go through a scientific process of experimentation to figure out how to build it. We can hypothesize about how it could work but none of that is set in stone.
bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml · 6 pts · 3y
Also ignores the fact that the person parroting that quote is not educated on the subject at all.
CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml · 9 pts · 3y
There's nothing to debunk because the claim itself is based on an absurd level of ignorance, they don't even know what they mean by the word communism, and it makes no sense for it to be "tried". The only consistent references that could almost make sense are these
Communism as a theoretical state of being (classless etc society) posed by
meMarx (and some others) as the eventual project and outcome of the dictatorship of the proletariat. As such, it has never been "tried", it can't be "tried", it is more of a goal or state of being rather than a strategy you can adopt. Plus, that project requires that the capitalist class be deposed by the working class such that efforts in that direction could be enacted, which unfortunately has been limited by the extreme and violent reactions of imperialists. It's difficult to do that project when you're just trying to survive the sanctions and wars.Communism as in a country run by a communist party. This has been tried, and to great success, with fantastic improvements in quality of life for those living there. What failures we do identify largely fall into two buckets: (1) targeted for destruction by imperialists and they were forced to succumb or (2) fell apart through the former and internal failures to build a robust political system, e.g. someone like Gorbachev should never have even been near the reins of power. Both can be criticized, but neither can be chalked up to, "oh dang commies can't run countries". Alsi, the largest real economy on the planet is run by a communist party and overcame over a century of colonialism and then industrialization to do it.
But really, someone saying this isn't even speaking the same language as us. It's really a conversation between two clueless liberals: one that simplistically craps on "communism" and it "failing" (without pointing to anything concrete) and the other liberal trying to say things like, "well real communism has never been tried".
In both cases, they're in need of a basic education, starting with, "what is a communist?"
HaSch@lemmygrad.ml · 4 pts · 3y
Universal economic prosperity does require more than communism, just like an engineer must know more than just geometry. But engineers who deny the law of cosines tend to build shitty bridges
SaakoPaahtaa@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3y
Lmao it doesnt work even on paper let alone reality. If it did, it probably wouldve
TokenBoomer@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3y
Cuba.
EhList@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 3y
m532@lemmygrad.ml · 8 pts · 3y
When you don't know shit, don't make assumptions
EhList@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3y
Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml · 6 pts · 3y
Can a single nation achieve communism without world revolution? AFAIK, that’s still an open question.
That doesn’t mean that even still, the socialist countries we have aren’t better for their citizens given what they have to work with than alternatives.
EhList@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3y
HaSch@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
China doesn't have a communist economy, but to consider them a failed communist experiment, to say they aren't achieving communism, is a far stretch. China has a long-term plan for an eventual transition towards communism, and it is reaching all of the important milestones in time, like zero poverty and zero homelessness, transition towards clean energy, and infrastructure expansion; as communicated in the (current) 14th 5-year-plan and in the 2021 book 2050 China: Becoming a Great Modern Socialist Country.
EhList@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 3y
HaSch@lemmygrad.ml · 2 pts · 3y
First of all a quick side note, "authoritarianism" is an ill-defined and sociologically unsound concept, and there is no such thing as an "authoritarian" party or state. Isolated policies may have aspects on a sliding scale between libertarian and authoritarian, but from that you cannot infer anything about the government or the society. For instance, in 1933, selling alcohol was prohibited in the United States while it was legal in Nazi Germany, but not even the most ardent drinker would say that the US was more "authoritarian" than the Nazis based on that.
Also, the Marxist distinction between communism as the final goal of socialist society (lack of state, money, religion etc.) and socialist society itself (scarcity, need for defence against reaction, presence of state etc.) is not what the people who utter the phrase that "Communism only works on paper" typically have in mind when they say it. Their argument usually breaks down to a set of dogmatic conceptions they have about worker ownership of the means of production, economics of central planning, or quality of life under socialism.
To respond to the allegation that "Communism only works on paper" in good faith, as though it were a good-faith argument derived from the speculative nature of post-scarcity communism as opposed to actually existing socialism, is to completely ignore the context in which it is actually used, namely to signal the speaker's disinterest in having an intellectually honest discussion about the merits and demerits of socialism in concrete situations. If you try to discuss it in the terms of Marxist theory, you will quickly discover (as you did way at the top of the comment chain) that already the premise of the argument is vacuous and nonsensical.
EhList@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 3y
redtea@lemmygrad.ml · 3 pts · 3y
Don't the China, Cuba, DPRK, Laos, USSR, and Vietnam count? They didn't achieve communism, but they pursue(d) it. I don't think it's fair to attribute their success to capitalism.
EhList@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 3y