I mean, what's the alternative here? The Swiss government, which they are subject to, issued a legal warrant. Any email provider you want to use will be subject to warrants. All of them.
They are technically incapable by design of complying with warrants for email data. In this case they were able to provide personally identifying payment data because the person paid for their account with... a credit card. They offer crypto payment options, and would not have been able to usefully comply had the person used that method.
I get the sentiment, but no serious company is going to survive for very long lying to its government when it receives search warrants. This is not a realistic solution.
Tuta never got any payment info outta me, though I do use them for official things tied to my actual id... but only those things, not other things.
???
The alternative is to use an alternative.
They are technically incapable by design of complying with warrants for email data.
Fucking obviously not, this is far from the first time something like this happened.
They could, you know, design the services they offer such that they are actually incapable of complying with warrants, by design.
Payment info is the easiest, most direct way to identify a person, beyond uploading your actual government ID.
Maybe, maybe Proton should stop acting like that is not fucking obviously the case, maybe they should make it more clear that if your threat model includes, I dunno, a terroristic theocratic fascist government, their currently existing marketing is extremely misleading to tech-normies?
If you pay for mailfence with card, they know who you are.
Also, I'm pretty sure that proton do not have unencrypted email contents of their users. That's why they can't offer IMAP like everyone else does (you can't connect your email client directly to proton, you need an extra app).
Also, I think that proton's marketing is pretty in-line with what they actually offer. Protection from e.g. data breaches should be quite good and I think it's reasonable to primarily market to people who are not directly targeted by the US government.
Basically all they did was provide the credit card information because that's the only information they had saved. It's not like they just gave them his email or something like that. It's one of the biggest reasons they let you use crypto to pay for your subscription.
If I were making an email address for a group allegedly connected to "arson, vandalism and doxing", I would've definitely gone with Bitcoin. The fact that all PM were able to do in the face of Swiss authorities acting at the behest of the FBI was connect the email address to the payment source – and that this one piece of information was easily preventable by the activist – is an endorsement to me.
Hahaha, fuck; you caught me. I copy–pasted that directly from the 404 article with no revisions. Funnily enough, Wikipedia's Manual of Style imposes no requirement for usage of serial ("Oxford") commas; it only requires intra-article consistency. However, like you clearly surmised, most experienced editors seem to prefer serial commas.
Bitcoin is not anonymous. If you went with Bitcoin, they could trace all the transactions from the time it was minted. If they can get back to a known address, they can very likely trace it forward to you.
On this list of payment methods, mailed cash is probably the most anonymous. They may theoretically be able to trace it back to your general region, but it would be difficult.
You can launder Bitcoin, and you can use unaffiliated bitcoin wallets.
I have a couple wallets that I've only ever accessed with VPN, and I can buy anonymous coins on one, transfer anonymously to the other, then swap for another type of coin and spend from there.
There are some gas fees and conversion costs, but vs jail I'd happily pay them.
You can launder, but the nature of the block chain is that all transactions are public and permanent. If your laundry service is compromised two years from now, the transaction you conduct today is also compromised.
Between the CEO using the official social account to celebrate Trump's re-election, their hard and unwanted pivot to being all about AI, and now knowing that there's really nothing stopping them from handing over my info to the FBI anyway, I'm not really struggling to find a reason tbh
CEO using the official social account to celebrate Trump's re-election
The tweet, from Dec. 2024, was celebrating that Trump nominated Gail Slater. It wasn't celebrating Trump's reelection, unless you know of some other tweet?
I mean... There's a lot more in that tweet than just celebrating a specific nomination. You seem to be specifically ignoring the majority of the post for whatever reason.
Great pick by @realDonaldTrump. 10 years ago, Republicans were the party of big business and Dems stood for the little guys, but today the tables have completely turned. People forget that the current antitrust actions against Big Tech were started under the first Trump admin.
One of the big issues the tweet specifically mentions is a fucking lie. Neither major party gives a shit about the little guys anymore. And the Trump admin most definitely has not been a supporter of antitrust actions against big tech, unless you consider political attacks as antitrust.
It definitely reads as an attempt to suck Trump's dick as opposed to just agreeing with a decision.
I mean... There's a lot more in that tweet than just celebrating a specific nomination. You seem to be specifically ignoring the majority of the post for whatever reason.
I wasn't sharing my opinion on the CEO's post as a whole, just correcting the misinformation that PP_BOY_ posted.
I provided a link to the CEO's post so anyone (like you) could get the full context.
For me, there's a huge difference between supporting Trump's reelection and supporting the nomination of someone who the CEO believes (even incorrectly) will promote antitrust regulation.
For what it's worth, I agree with you that both parties have in many ways prioritized the interests of big tech over the citizens they're supposed to serve. Moreover, I believe Democrats have been much better champions of things that favor consumers, such as Net Neutrality. Trump's administration gutted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) for heaven's sake.
Obviously, I disagree with the CEO's take in his tweet. But that's no reason to allow misinformation to spread. I'd much rather everyone see the tweet and form their own opinions.
Canceling my subscription tonight. All their apps were neat conveniences for me, but I'll live without it. I've fortunately got cold copies of all my files on Drive already, but this is awful to see
I've gone down this rabbit hole, and it's just not possible to host your own email without getting filtered out and having a lot of non-delivered emails from your address. It improves over time if you have a static email and IP, but it will never be zero failure.
When their marketing is based on privacy, they need to be honest that they're not going to be private.
I recall other companies using "canaries" to help their customers know that they had been compromised by the government but were legally not allowed to talk about it.
They’ve never had a true Warrant Canary. They have however always posted an annual Transparency Report on their blog. Where they reference they abide by Swiss Law.
https://proton.me/legal/transparency
42 Comments
zkfcfbzr@lemmy.world · 45 pts · 160d
I mean, what's the alternative here? The Swiss government, which they are subject to, issued a legal warrant. Any email provider you want to use will be subject to warrants. All of them.
They are technically incapable by design of complying with warrants for email data. In this case they were able to provide personally identifying payment data because the person paid for their account with... a credit card. They offer crypto payment options, and would not have been able to usefully comply had the person used that method.
Cevilia@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 9 pts · 160d
zkfcfbzr@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 159d
I get the sentiment, but no serious company is going to survive for very long lying to its government when it receives search warrants. This is not a realistic solution.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 159d
Mailfence has no idea who I am.
Tuta never got any payment info outta me, though I do use them for official things tied to my actual id... but only those things, not other things.
???
The alternative is to use an alternative.
Fucking obviously not, this is far from the first time something like this happened.
They could, you know, design the services they offer such that they are actually incapable of complying with warrants, by design.
Payment info is the easiest, most direct way to identify a person, beyond uploading your actual government ID.
Maybe, maybe Proton should stop acting like that is not fucking obviously the case, maybe they should make it more clear that if your threat model includes, I dunno, a terroristic theocratic fascist government, their currently existing marketing is extremely misleading to tech-normies?
craftrabbit@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 159d
If you pay for mailfence with card, they know who you are.
Also, I'm pretty sure that proton do not have unencrypted email contents of their users. That's why they can't offer IMAP like everyone else does (you can't connect your email client directly to proton, you need an extra app).
Also, I think that proton's marketing is pretty in-line with what they actually offer. Protection from e.g. data breaches should be quite good and I think it's reasonable to primarily market to people who are not directly targeted by the US government.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -2 pts · 159d
Who pays for mailfence?
Why would you?
Then you're either an idiot or are somehow blissfully ignorant of everything related to Peter Thiel and Palantir.
PP_BOY_@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 160d
FFS
TommySoda@lemmy.world · 31 pts · 160d
Basically all they did was provide the credit card information because that's the only information they had saved. It's not like they just gave them his email or something like that. It's one of the biggest reasons they let you use crypto to pay for your subscription.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 160d
For thoroughness' sake, here are all of Proton's payment methods.
They accept:
If I were making an email address for a group allegedly connected to "arson, vandalism and doxing", I would've definitely gone with Bitcoin. The fact that all PM were able to do in the face of Swiss authorities acting at the behest of the FBI was connect the email address to the payment source – and that this one piece of information was easily preventable by the activist – is an endorsement to me.
Zidane@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 160d
Wiki guy doesn't believe in the Oxford comma, you disgust me
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 160d
Hahaha, fuck; you caught me. I copy–pasted that directly from the 404 article with no revisions. Funnily enough, Wikipedia's Manual of Style imposes no requirement for usage of serial ("Oxford") commas; it only requires intra-article consistency. However, like you clearly surmised, most experienced editors seem to prefer serial commas.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 160d
Bitcoin is not anonymous. If you went with Bitcoin, they could trace all the transactions from the time it was minted. If they can get back to a known address, they can very likely trace it forward to you.
On this list of payment methods, mailed cash is probably the most anonymous. They may theoretically be able to trace it back to your general region, but it would be difficult.
exaybachae@startrek.website · 2 pts · 160d
You can launder Bitcoin, and you can use unaffiliated bitcoin wallets.
I have a couple wallets that I've only ever accessed with VPN, and I can buy anonymous coins on one, transfer anonymously to the other, then swap for another type of coin and spend from there.
There are some gas fees and conversion costs, but vs jail I'd happily pay them.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 159d
You can launder, but the nature of the block chain is that all transactions are public and permanent. If your laundry service is compromised two years from now, the transaction you conduct today is also compromised.
originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com · 2 pts · 160d
no, must raise the pitchforks cuz reasons!
its like people are just out to find a reason to hate proton
PP_BOY_@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 160d
Between the CEO using the official social account to celebrate Trump's re-election, their hard and unwanted pivot to being all about AI, and now knowing that there's really nothing stopping them from handing over my info to the FBI anyway, I'm not really struggling to find a reason tbh
oktux@lemmy.sdf.org · 6 pts · 160d
The tweet, from Dec. 2024, was celebrating that Trump nominated Gail Slater. It wasn't celebrating Trump's reelection, unless you know of some other tweet?
https://x.com/andyyen/status/1864436449942110660
halcyoncmdr@piefed.social · 12 pts · 160d
I mean... There's a lot more in that tweet than just celebrating a specific nomination. You seem to be specifically ignoring the majority of the post for whatever reason.
One of the big issues the tweet specifically mentions is a fucking lie. Neither major party gives a shit about the little guys anymore. And the Trump admin most definitely has not been a supporter of antitrust actions against big tech, unless you consider political attacks as antitrust.
It definitely reads as an attempt to suck Trump's dick as opposed to just agreeing with a decision.
oktux@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 160d
I wasn't sharing my opinion on the CEO's post as a whole, just correcting the misinformation that PP_BOY_ posted.
I provided a link to the CEO's post so anyone (like you) could get the full context.
For me, there's a huge difference between supporting Trump's reelection and supporting the nomination of someone who the CEO believes (even incorrectly) will promote antitrust regulation.
For what it's worth, I agree with you that both parties have in many ways prioritized the interests of big tech over the citizens they're supposed to serve. Moreover, I believe Democrats have been much better champions of things that favor consumers, such as Net Neutrality. Trump's administration gutted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) for heaven's sake.
Obviously, I disagree with the CEO's take in his tweet. But that's no reason to allow misinformation to spread. I'd much rather everyone see the tweet and form their own opinions.
ThePyroPython@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 160d
As a proton customer, I share this sentiment.... (Exasperated Siiiiiigggghhhh)
PP_BOY_@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 160d
Canceling my subscription tonight. All their apps were neat conveniences for me, but I'll live without it. I've fortunately got cold copies of all my files on Drive already, but this is awful to see
ThePyroPython@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 160d
Yeah I don't have the time to do that right now, but it's mullvad and time to learn self-hosting for me.
PP_BOY_@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 160d
I've been using Mullvad even with Proton VPN the whole time, anyway. It's a great provider. Also need to learn how to self host
obious@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 160d
I've gone down this rabbit hole, and it's just not possible to host your own email without getting filtered out and having a lot of non-delivered emails from your address. It improves over time if you have a static email and IP, but it will never be zero failure.
cloudskater@piefed.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 160d
I use Posteo. They're green and pretty solid from everything I'm aware of.
jonesy@aussie.zone · 19 pts · 160d
The moral of this story is to not pay for proton for email usage.
Mac@mander.xyz · 18 pts · 160d
helped FBIadhered to Swiss legal requirementsAre you guys expecting companies to break the laws of their own countries on your behalf?
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 159d
Nah, just expecting honest, straightforward marketing.
Here's an example:
Hey we do E2EE and shit, but if you pay us for it, and the US government gets mad at you, we'll fuck you.
There, see?
Honest, simple.
Mac@mander.xyz · 0 pts · 159d
So, from your perspective, all companies should include, in their marketing campaigns, that they wont break the law for you? lol
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 159d
When their marketing is based on privacy, they need to be honest that they're not going to be private.
I recall other companies using "canaries" to help their customers know that they had been compromised by the government but were legally not allowed to talk about it.
73rdnemesio@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 159d
They’ve never had a true Warrant Canary. They have however always posted an annual Transparency Report on their blog. Where they reference they abide by Swiss Law. https://proton.me/legal/transparency
kilgore_trout@feddit.it · 1 pts · 159d
*abide
Retail4068@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 160d
Oh, proton caved to government warrant? ./mild shock
Idiots expect them to pay salaries while ignoring government suppeona 🤦♂️. I was screeched at on a banned account.
traxex@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 9 pts · 160d
Cancelled this shit over a year ago at this point. Very glad I left. Fuck Proton.
Innerworld@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 159d
Proton's response
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 160d
Not surprising given Proton Mail is owned by a far right Trump supporter.
JoMiran@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 160d
Stop spreading lies and misinformation. We get enough of that shit from the fascists.
ChicoSuave@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 160d
Andy Yen supports Trump.
maus@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 159d
Post proof then.
ChicoSuave@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 158d
https://x.com/andyyen/status/1864436449942110660
maus@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 157d
I'm confused, nothing there is an endorsement of a candidate and nothing in that tweet isn't factual...
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 160d
It is truth.
acantharea@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 160d
Boooooooo