cross-posted from: https://lemmy.bestiver.se/post/1030279
GabeN Is Shitting Yacht Money into Flatpak and You're Still Arguing Init Systems
https://s3kshun8.games/blog/flatpak-won/
https://s3kshun8.games/blog/flatpak-won/
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.bestiver.se/post/1030279
28 Comments
just_another_person@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 126d
Flatpak makes more sense for how Valve will be using it for all their new devices. Simple as that.
They "shit" money into ALL kinds of development that pushed lots of projects forward a decade in maybe a years time, and are doing it again with FEX. Are you taking issue with allmof that, or just this because they have a business use-case?
ikidd@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 126d
A: It's not my blog
B: The author's point was that Flatpak solves a lot of pain points for developers on Linux with distribution that Appimage doesn't, and package managers certainly don't, and that if there's going to be companies like Valve and Redhat that are going all-in on that method, it would benefit the Linux ecosystem that's currently driving away developers in droves with fragmentation to consider that.
Personally I like Appimage for just being able to grab a file and run it, and I integrate Gear Lever updates by building my own repackaging infra to keep projects that use it updating via Gear Lever's Update All button. But I can completely commiserate with the idea that it isn't very useful for most users to have to come up with things like that themselves when Flatpak is easily integrated with Discover and other packagekit software updaters.
Dionysus@leminal.space · 13 pts · 126d
As an old GenX who grew up with BBSs, Fidonet and dialup shell accounts so I'm probably missing something...
Where are the Linux developers being driven in droves to exactly?
We've always had nix fragmentation, that's the nature of FOSS.
Teach this old gramps what he doesn't understand.
ikidd@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 126d
You would figure that most developers would just work on the platform that gives them the tools to do what they do most easily. Yet the amount that won't use Linux and instead seemingly cripple themselves by developing on Mac or Windows frankly astounds me. But I'm also very used to Linux' pain points, having used it since the 90s. If I only every got my software with an .exe or .dmg download, I'd probably shy away as well.
I couldn't imagine working with Docker Desktop or WSL, or depending on Brew to have everything I need, but that's the reality for many, because it's familiar and simple. The underlying operating system is abstracted away so they don't have to deal with it, and sticking their nose in Linux is scary and confusing, especially if you're expected to deal with the panoply of installation methods available to your software. When I dealt with Windows in the long-long ago, you built a MSinstaller package and went on your merry way.
And if you look at new developers today, do you think they'd put up with RBBS for a minute if that's how they got their software out?
sukhmel@programming.dev · 2 pts · 126d
In my experience fragmentation of Linux is not at all why people
just_another_person@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 126d
I don't really get the point of the blog, honestly, because in the first part they are railing against one angle, then reverse and argue FOR it in a sense by saying Flatpak just works. Of course it does. That's it's job.
AppImage also just works, but there is a fundamental difference in the delta of what you get as a payload. AppImage has EVERYTHING the image needs to run. Flatpaks only contain the running code and custom dependencies, then it's manager solves for shared libraries and generics from commonly available layers to download and run to solve for those deps.
Both make sense depending on how you feel you need to tackle the problem.
Where the author kid of goes off the rails is complaining that somehow either camp is somehow responsible for their product being popular enough to survive and be taken up by Valve. In this specific case, Valve is intending to include simple packaging for games and libraries they intend to ship to millions of cross platform devices. Flatpak makes sense from a bandwidth and storage standpoint for end-users.
AppImage does not. No idea why this person is taking issue with that.
SamueruSama@programming.dev · 3 pts · 124d
While flatpaks "share" dependencies, different flatpaks depend on different flatpak runtimes and even different versions of the same runtime, so it is actually the least efficient way to ship software.
https://pkgforge-dev.github.io/Anylinux-AppImages/disk-usage-vs-flatpak.html
just_another_person@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 124d
An example:
Application Payload = 100MB AppImage all inclusive image with deps = 175MB Flatpak App Layer = 101MB Flatpak Deps = 75MB
Now say you're shipping 1000's of similar applications with the same general dependency chains in bulk operations to things like end-user devices.
Flatpak wins. That's the point.
This isn't a discussion about an average Desktop user saving some disk space.
SamueruSama@programming.dev · 2 pts · 124d
If you talking about the infrastructure cost, then yeah it flatpak would be 'better'. since all your users would use the same runtime and you only have to ship the binary.
But this only makes sense for the first time the user downloads the application, because it turns out appimage can do delta updates just like flatpak lol
In practice not even the first point is true btw, a lot of flatpaks often ship bundled in dependencies (due to having compat issues with the flaptak runtime), so the donwload size of the
.flatpakalone is similar or bigger than the one of the appimage.just_another_person@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 124d
🤣
My gawd. The hoops you jump through. Just take the L and walk on, slugger.
SamueruSama@programming.dev · 2 pts · 123d
Didn't know that measuring and comparing means I'm jumping thru hoops.
blackbrook@mander.xyz · 3 pts · 126d
I think their point, in the first part at least before going off on ideology, is that appimage makes things a lot harder for developers. At least I think that's their point, the rantiness makes it hard to distinguish technical points from the idealogical...
who@feddit.org · 2 pts · 126d
I am very skeptical of this. Exactly which developers are being driven away "in droves" because of packaging system differences? If you want to make a case for that assertion, you're going to have to identify them, so they can be counted.
If it turns out that there are many developers who think like this, someone ought to let them know that they don't have to package open-source software for every distro out there in order to reach all the major distros. Just package it for one, or even none, and let package maintainers do their thing.
Or, are you talking about proprietary software? That would be a different discussion.
Ooops@feddit.org · 1 pts · 125d
Even if maintainers wouldn't just package stuff themselves. How many formats do you need to cover 95% of the eco system? More than 3?
mrbigmouth502@piefed.zip · 7 pts · 126d
What's the TL;DR version of this?
Kirk@startrek.website · 7 pts · 125d
I read it twice and it still doesn't make sense
HelloRoot@lemy.lol · 6 pts · 125d
tldr:
flatpak - good
linux people arguing over other ways to package and distribute - bad
mrbigmouth502@piefed.zip · 2 pts · 125d
I see. I'm generally a fan of Flatpak even though I still think it has some drawbacks. I think it's good to have alternatives though, because I don't want to be stuck in its ecosystem if the people behind it decide to take it in a stupid direction.
LiveLM@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 125d
TL;DR: Tribalism bad. I'm sure you've heard it before but it really needs repeating.
It's pretty hard to disagree with this guy after seeing the massive shitstorm over Age verification and Systemd's purported """willingness to participate""" these past few days.
I feel like we are days always from someone asking what distro to get and some huge comment section fight breaking out over OpenRC and Antix versus Systemd and Cachy or something along these lines.
Now imagine you as a newcomer with no Linux knowledge being on the receiving end of this mess. Yeah I get the point he's making.
And then you flip this to the "experts" view and:
Like holy shit. Why the hell are people out there yelling at software maintainers about packaging decisions???
And I've seen people do this for Flatpak too.
"Why is this only available via Flatpak weh weh Red Hat is the devil!"
I understand not wanting to "cater to the normies". I understand wanting to have your own corner where you do things your way and don't give a shit about the needs of the regular Joe. I totally get it.
But people at large really need to stop yelling at other people not catering to them.
Want software packaged in X way? Do it yourself!
Lately DankPods (Aussie YouTuber) has been taking about his escape to Linux.
He talks about how he moved most of his needs (bar video editing and other minutiae) to Linux as it's the only platform he feels he "owns" / sees a future in.
Yet even him, said he'd almost rather not talk about it publicly because of the mountains of people in his comments yelling at him for choosing Bazzite over something else. Or accusing him of making Linux "Look bad" because of Nvidia issues despite him using the right Bazzite Edition for Nvidia. Or the people yelling "Why you still edit on Mac? Just Davinci on Linux bro" despite there being a billion quirks to it.
How on Earth has the community at large not moved on from Distro wars? Holy shit.
This is basically what the blog author is grasping at here. How many people have been driven away from Linux because of all this infighting? How many more will be?
ikidd@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 125d
Finally, someone that actually RTFA.
The systemd fiasco really tore the heart out of my respect for the Linux community, especially the one right here. One asshole out there pretty much doxxing an opensource developer for putting a field in the same PII area as address and phone number, and the rest of the assholes were looking to crucify the guy instead of shaming the doxxer for it. And nobody (well, few people) saw what was wrong with that.
And then, yes, the init wars, and shitting on devs for their choices about packaging, and shitting on them for not liking how they run their project, for using AI, and and and.
The downvotes on this comment garnered tells me it hit a nerve, and that's why I posted it. I don't expect anyone to actually take it to heart and change, but when I was pushing back here against the pitchfork mob over the age verification thing, I hoped for a better response. Typical, as the linux community likes to shoot the messenger.
In the end, driving people away from desktop Linux works in our favor, because it puts off the day that Linux enshittifies. So I can't be too upset.
Elting@piefed.social · 3 pts · 124d
I’m still new here and to Linux and the whole age verification thing read to me as over-reactionary internet behavior you find all over reddit. No real underlying reason to make such a fuss other than to virtue signal to other linux users how security minded you are. Just makes the whole community look ridiculous.
ikidd@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 124d
Yah, you'll want a thick skin around this group and don't get herded into groupthink, but you seem to have that covered already.
There are places to look for help if you need it (I'm happy to take DMs) but unfortunately I'd have to recommend reddit/r/linuxquestions as probably the most welcoming. While the ArchWiki is a great source of information, stay far away from the Arch forums unless you're wearing blast armor. Format a question the wrong way and you'll get fragged. I'd say the Debian forums are probably the easiest to get along with, it seems populated with adults.
flamingos@feddit.uk · 5 pts · 125d
I don't think I've ever read an opinion I agree with expressed this disagreeably before. The title is also weird given Valve doesn't officially support the Steam flatpak and AFAIK hasn't given any money to the flatpak devs.
ikidd@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 125d
I thought it was quite eloquent. The downvotes tell me it hit a nerve, and as another commenter says, the recent "field added in systemd so let's hang someone" fiasco lines up.
flamingos@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 125d
Most people downvoting almost certainly only read the title. I do agree with what's being said, I just don't like the style, but that's just a taste thing. The title is bad though, it's not relevant to the article and is factually wrong, unless I've missed an announcement of Valve have given Flatpak/Flathub guys money.
misk@piefed.social · 2 pts · 126d
How much money exactly? Last time I checked it was just salary for a couple of devs. That’s least they can do while taking 30% cut of nearly all PC game sales. That’s the kind of money that goes into significantly subsidising console hardware for comparison. They benefit so much from the work of others that went into Linux, Wine and the ecosystem already that they should be giving way more in return.
HelloRoot@lemy.lol · 1 pts · 125d
no, no, no
least would be 0. Capitalists can always do 0.
cschreib@programming.dev · 1 pts · 124d
Confusing read. Also using "moms" as a shortcut to imply "non tech savvy people" is not a great choice. Way to antagonize and diminish women for the sake of a punchline.