And schools should have economics and personal finances as part of the curriculum.
the problem with this "common sense" approach is that it emphasizes and reinforces personal responsibility in a system that's rigged to take advantage of every human foible.
I call this the "late-fee" fallacy. As in the idea that video store late fees are intended to encourage responsible behavior, not a revenue stream that the business relies on. Overdraft fees are another great example.
Modern millionaires don’t hoard cash, just like ancient millionaires didn’t hoard apples or wheat. Sure, millionaires always had something perishable, but most of the wealth was/is tied in things like land, buildings, companies, ships, cattle, slaves, stocks, bonds, loans etc.
It may bring down the overall numbers, but given the rate of passive growth would still be several times the wealth tax, I see no reason they would disappear or new ones would stop appearing.
Norway as an example has had their wealth tax for over a century. They still have one of the highest rates of billionaires per capita worldwide.
Its called inflation. And billionaires dont hoard money, they hoard assets. Most of the time inflation just makes them richer, as salaries drain out year over year and their stock prices keep going up.
This has actually been tried. It's called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_currency](demurrage currency). Basically, every note decreases in value every week: in 1930s Austria, this was accomplished by requiring people to get regular stamps to keep their money good, but every stamp reduced the value of the note.
This encourages people to spend money instead of hoarding it, but the obvious downside is that it makes saving functionally impossible.
Yes, only already rich should have an ability to use capital. Peons should be stripped of even theoretical possibility to get any capital-tier sum. Only gas and bread money.
As people said you don't want to completely stop savings but it would make sense for social benefits. Take snap. You could limit people to not keeping in excess of one months benefits in savings (the reason you might allow a month is so that they can do something special on a holiday or birhtday or such). So 2x times their benefit would be the maximum allowed holding. Now lets say you limit snap to things grown and processed in the US. Now it acts as an economic stimulus as well as a social safety net and you prevent the hoarding thing. You could convert all argricutural type aid to it and it would likely be better for the industry. Now note you stopped hoarding of the currency but that does not stop hoarding. Some folks if they see they have not used the full benefit will buy some treats like ice cream cake or something. Others however will buy canned goods or rice and beans and hoard that. Granted those folke like hoarded anyway. Similarly if money in general had an expiration date then rich people would buy more single family homes and warehoused and precious metals and such.
Whoa whoa whoa, you think people are saving their food stamps and not spending all of them every month? I'd love to actually see the data on that because I would be incredibly surprised. Because food stamps do not cover the monthly cost of food.
Better solution: world wide wealth caps. WWWC, if you will
Just your normal tax brackets but with one extra one that says that nobody can be worth more than, say, 10 million dollars. Anything over that goes straight not taxes until you're below again.
For companies, make it a billion dollars
This way, nobody can become extraordinary rich and or powerful
Nobody can pressure others or influence large groups with money because nobody can
Companies will require a huge amount of small shareholders so no one single shareholder can influence a single company
Governments will get a huge influx of money which they can use for a huge social network with free healthcare, free education, UBI (Universal Basic Income) and so on.
With that, no more poverty. Everyone can have a standard minimum living where they have a nice little home, all the food and healthcare and education they'd need, and if someone wants a little more, they can work a little more, but nobody can get over 10 mil.
It would eradicate poverty, and much of -or most- crime, as money is the incentive of much of the crime in the world
Governments can make world wide investment foundations that can fund independent press agencies with the single requirements that they always try to be as unbiased and honest as possible
Companies can't have a networth over a billion dollars, so instead of 1-3 giant companies, we'll have thousands, of not millions of smaller ones.
Companies will no longer have incentives to cheat and or fuck over customers or the environment because why would you of you reached the limit and you can't earn more anyway? Focus can go to quality and safety again
I see a huge amount of pro's here with ... Well, I don't even see cons
I know this requires that we implement this world wide, but that would be the only complication. The rules themselves are simple and basic. I know, there are a lot of details that willl emerge that need to be handled but anything is better than the oligarch shit we have now and this to me sounds like a Utopian society, really, or as close as we can get to them
Hoarding is not the correct way to think of billionaires amassing grotesque wealth, hoarding is the old couple putting cash under the bed. For the old couple it is their money and their business. What billionaires do is a significant societal drain on resources and should be dealt with accordingly, akin to war crimes.
44 Comments
7uWqKj@lemmy.world · 47 pts · 66d
Please note that Elon Musk doesn’t hoard money in the same way that Scrooge McDuck does
WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 66d
Man, I wish the world's richest man was just a cheap skate instead of a corrupt sociopathic nazi fraud edgelord.
roofuskit@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 66d
That's pretty much always been an apt description of the World's richest person.
RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 66d
Yes but he does hoard wealth and assets.
Iconoclast@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 64d
Please explain.
Iconoclast@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 62d
Still waiting for further explanation.
Iconoclast@feddit.uk · 31 pts · 66d
And schools should have economics and personal finances as part of the curriculum.
Nobody is hoarding money. Scrooge McDuck is a bad caricature of a rich person - that's not how any of it works.
yesman@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 66d
the problem with this "common sense" approach is that it emphasizes and reinforces personal responsibility in a system that's rigged to take advantage of every human foible.
I call this the "late-fee" fallacy. As in the idea that video store late fees are intended to encourage responsible behavior, not a revenue stream that the business relies on. Overdraft fees are another great example.
Financial responsibility would ruin the economy.
TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip · 28 pts · 66d
It does. It’s called inflation.
Modern millionaires don’t hoard cash, just like ancient millionaires didn’t hoard apples or wheat. Sure, millionaires always had something perishable, but most of the wealth was/is tied in things like land, buildings, companies, ships, cattle, slaves, stocks, bonds, loans etc.
RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 66d
Inflation has little impact on the wealthy. I should have said wealth or assets
CannedYeet@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 64d
It makes them invest their money which puts it to good use. That makes credit cheaper for everyone else.
Inequality is an issue, but that's what taxes are for. You don't solve inequality by breaking the economy.
TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 65d
Yeah that’s a good clarification. If land and old paintings had had an expiration date…
justaman123@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 65d
I mean the Mexican government makes it so that land can only be owned for 100 years.
TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 64d
That still means that the rich kids can inherit land from their billionaire parents. Generational wealth can still exist.
justaman123@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 64d
Yeah, also the leases can be renewed and it just ends up being a way to collect taxes.
frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml · 19 pts · 66d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation
schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de · 12 pts · 66d
It already does, it's called inflation.
Also are you talking about physical money, or bank accounts, or what...?
RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 66d
inflation has little effect on the wealthy. I should have said wealth or assets.
bacon_pdp@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 66d
AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 65d
How so? I support the idea of a wealth tax, but I would have expected the billionaires to be getting way above a 1% return on their assets.
bacon_pdp@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 65d
AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 65d
It may bring down the overall numbers, but given the rate of passive growth would still be several times the wealth tax, I see no reason they would disappear or new ones would stop appearing.
Norway as an example has had their wealth tax for over a century. They still have one of the highest rates of billionaires per capita worldwide.
bacon_pdp@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 65d
blockheadjt@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 66d
That would disproportionately affect the poor since the money owned by the wealthy is overwhelmingly tied up in other assets, index funds etc
RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 66d
Your right I should have said wealth or assets
jrs100000@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 64d
Its called inflation. And billionaires dont hoard money, they hoard assets. Most of the time inflation just makes them richer, as salaries drain out year over year and their stock prices keep going up.
Infrapink@thebrainbin.org · 7 pts · 66d
This has actually been tried. It's called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_currency](demurrage currency). Basically, every note decreases in value every week: in 1930s Austria, this was accomplished by requiring people to get regular stamps to keep their money good, but every stamp reduced the value of the note.
This encourages people to spend money instead of hoarding it, but the obvious downside is that it makes saving functionally impossible.
RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 66d
very cool thanks :)
username_1@discuss.tchncs.de · 3 pts · 66d
Yes, only already rich should have an ability to use capital. Peons should be stripped of even theoretical possibility to get any capital-tier sum. Only gas and bread money.
RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 66d
I was thinking more of people having what they can use and not horad wealth and assets.
RevolverSly@fedinsfw.app · 2 pts · 64d
Pro hoarders never hoard money
ReverendIrreverence@piefed.social · 2 pts · 65d
For Billionaires+ only
osanna@lemmy.vg · 2 pts · 64d
It’s fucking sad you even need the +. Billionaires should not exist, even less so trillionaires.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 65d
You mean gift cards?
aritzg@tardigram.com · 1 pts · 66d
Absolutely not
TheDankMemegician36@thelemmy.club · 1 pts · 64d
What is this, a CBDC ad?
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 66d
Do you mean cash, money, or wealth?
RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 66d
Sorry I should have said wealth or assets.
HubertManne@piefed.social · 1 pts · 65d
As people said you don't want to completely stop savings but it would make sense for social benefits. Take snap. You could limit people to not keeping in excess of one months benefits in savings (the reason you might allow a month is so that they can do something special on a holiday or birhtday or such). So 2x times their benefit would be the maximum allowed holding. Now lets say you limit snap to things grown and processed in the US. Now it acts as an economic stimulus as well as a social safety net and you prevent the hoarding thing. You could convert all argricutural type aid to it and it would likely be better for the industry. Now note you stopped hoarding of the currency but that does not stop hoarding. Some folks if they see they have not used the full benefit will buy some treats like ice cream cake or something. Others however will buy canned goods or rice and beans and hoard that. Granted those folke like hoarded anyway. Similarly if money in general had an expiration date then rich people would buy more single family homes and warehoused and precious metals and such.
justaman123@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 65d
Whoa whoa whoa, you think people are saving their food stamps and not spending all of them every month? I'd love to actually see the data on that because I would be incredibly surprised. Because food stamps do not cover the monthly cost of food.
HubertManne@piefed.social · 1 pts · 65d
Sorry I often propose universal snap and forgot I had not put that in this particular comment.
phoenixz@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 66d
Better solution: world wide wealth caps. WWWC, if you will
Just your normal tax brackets but with one extra one that says that nobody can be worth more than, say, 10 million dollars. Anything over that goes straight not taxes until you're below again.
For companies, make it a billion dollars
This way, nobody can become extraordinary rich and or powerful
Nobody can pressure others or influence large groups with money because nobody can
Companies will require a huge amount of small shareholders so no one single shareholder can influence a single company
Governments will get a huge influx of money which they can use for a huge social network with free healthcare, free education, UBI (Universal Basic Income) and so on.
With that, no more poverty. Everyone can have a standard minimum living where they have a nice little home, all the food and healthcare and education they'd need, and if someone wants a little more, they can work a little more, but nobody can get over 10 mil.
It would eradicate poverty, and much of -or most- crime, as money is the incentive of much of the crime in the world
Governments can make world wide investment foundations that can fund independent press agencies with the single requirements that they always try to be as unbiased and honest as possible
Companies can't have a networth over a billion dollars, so instead of 1-3 giant companies, we'll have thousands, of not millions of smaller ones.
Companies will no longer have incentives to cheat and or fuck over customers or the environment because why would you of you reached the limit and you can't earn more anyway? Focus can go to quality and safety again
I see a huge amount of pro's here with ... Well, I don't even see cons
I know this requires that we implement this world wide, but that would be the only complication. The rules themselves are simple and basic. I know, there are a lot of details that willl emerge that need to be handled but anything is better than the oligarch shit we have now and this to me sounds like a Utopian society, really, or as close as we can get to them
Miller@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 66d
Hoarding is not illegal, maybe it should be, certainly at scale but currently it is not so measures to stop it are not lawful at this time.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 66d
Lol. The way you make something illegal is by passing laws. It's not unlawful to pass laws
Miller@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 66d
Hoarding is not the correct way to think of billionaires amassing grotesque wealth, hoarding is the old couple putting cash under the bed. For the old couple it is their money and their business. What billionaires do is a significant societal drain on resources and should be dealt with accordingly, akin to war crimes.
alsimoneau@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 66d
Yeah, I feel like we want constant deflation instead of inflation.
DomeGuy@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 66d
Deflation makes dollars MORE valuable, and thus discourages commerce.