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c/privacy · by elusivemail@lemmy.world · 38d

I built encrypted email that shows exactly what it can and can't see. Closed source today, opening at 300 users. Tear it apart

Full disclosure: I am the maker. I am not here to tell you it is perfect. I am here because this community is best at finding the holes, and I would rather you find them now.

Elusive (elusivemail.xyz) is encrypted email. The thing I care about is honesty over claims. The landing page has a two-sided ledger showing what is sealed to your key versus what the server can see. Most services bury the second half. I put it front and center.

Sealed to your key: message bodies, subject lines, attachments, the sender and recipient of every stored message, and in keyfile mode the key itself. Visible to the server: who a message is from and to at the moment it passes through, your account details, and incoming mail the instant it arrives, before it is encrypted to your key.

The crypto: keys are generated in your browser (OpenPGP.js, curve25519, Argon2id). Your password never leaves your device, the server only stores a hash, so it cannot derive your key. End-to-end by default, plus a keyfile mode where nothing stored can decrypt your mail.

Where I will not blow smoke: incoming external mail is plaintext at receipt, the envelope is visible at delivery time to route mail (no logs), and it is closed source right now.

The whole plan is public and numbered on the roadmap (elusivemail.xyz): open source everything at 300 users, then a public API, native apps, our own hardware in Switzerland, a multi-server split so no single machine holds everything, an independent audit at 4,000, and eventually an encrypted communicator and drive. If a number slips, the page says so. Watch the roadmap, not my word.

It is free, no ads, I make no money. What would make you trust it, or not? What did I get wrong?

-25 points · 18 comments · view on lemmy.world

18 Comments

Skyline969@piefed.ca · 22 pts · 38d (5 replies)

Closed source? Immediately zero trust.

WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 38d

You're not gonna trust some rando on the internet with your sensitive data? You're crazy!

XLE@piefed.social · 3 pts · 38d

I guess it doesn't show exactly what it can and can't see.

elusivemail@lemmy.world · -6 pts · 38d (2 replies)

Fair. Want to build a bit of recognition first, then it all opens at 300, it's on the roadmap. Honestly til then I'd treat it as alias and disposable mail more than your main inbox. Once it's open and audited you can verify all of it yourself

CallMeAl@piefed.zip · 13 pts · 38d

I would not use a service where the operator is not clearing declaring their legal identity and corp contact info and registered business address.

I have no way to know who you are or why you are doing this and I can think of a lot of reasons someone who do this that are not in my interest.

HubertManne@piefed.social · 4 pts · 38d

cool. cool. just get back to us when you get to that point on the roadmap then. Nothing will give you better input into holes than gpl.

CallMeAl@piefed.zip · 5 pts · 38d

Unless I know you personally and your qualifications to build this, nothing would make me use or trust it.

kibblebits@quokk.au · 3 pts · 38d

Bye

elusivemail@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 36d

Hey everybody thanks for all the feedback. Everything has been fixed improved and opensourced with signed builds. go ahead check it out https://lemmy.world/post/49488495 !

unitedwithme@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 38d (8 replies)

Haha, I chuckle at everyone shitting on it already like they've never used A Gmail, hotmail, or icloud account who are way worse than what you're stating.

Plus, it's a test, you're not asking people to migrate their whole lives to it.

Anyway, as an up-and-coming service/provider, its nice to see competition in this space. I do have a few questions:

  1. Why currently closed source and not launching with open source? You're eventually going that way anyway, right?
  2. If its owned hardware and not everything on 1 box, but you'd make no money, how are you going to fund projects in the future? What about upgrades or unforeseen expenses?
  3. What's your end goal making your own over Proton, Tuta, etc? Are there newer/better encryption methods? Is this a project to learn from?
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 38d
  1. If its owned hardware and not everything on 1 box, but you'd make no money, how are you going to fund projects in the future? What about upgrades or unforeseen expenses?

They could start taking donations, but it is worth asking the question to get them thinking about future plans

elusivemail@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 38d (6 replies)

Apreciate this, genuinely.

  1. Opening it at 11 users does nothing, nobody audits a nobody. Want a bit of recognition first, and honestly want it rock solid before the whole internet tears into it. Opens at 300, that's the deal.
  2. Fair one. "No money" means no ads, no data selling, no investors, not zero revenue ever. It's cheap to run now and I cover it myself. As it grows: donations first, then paying for capacity like storage and extra aliases, anonymous payment. Never charging for privacy itself.
  3. Honestly, we want to be real competition, not just another inbox. The goal is a full private cloud: mail, messaging and drive on the same keys, with real anonymity built in. Crypto itself is standard (OpenPGP, curve25519, Argon2), the bet is the honesty and the full anonymous stack, not fancier math. We're 11 users and a long way off, so judge the steps not the dream.
unitedwithme@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 38d (5 replies)

Thanks for the quick reply. Looks like you're at 12 users now on your website. Count me a 13 haha.

I'm not good at reading through the code, but I test features, function, errors, holes, etc. I'll do what I can.

elusivemail@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 38d (4 replies)

Haha, thanks, I appreciate that. Let me know how you get on with it. I'd love to hear what works, what doesn't, and anything that feels off. And yeah, keep an eye on that 300-user milestone. 😉

unitedwithme@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 38d (3 replies)

OK, question(s):

  1. How to implement into Thunderbird mail client for practical day-to-day use? What would the SMTP address be and other settings? I didn't find that info on your website, but I did find you're looking into completing mobile and desktop apps.
  2. Have you tested internal/external services to see how well OpenPGP emails work? I had an issue w encrypted via a test proton acct or an IMAP acct in Thunderbird with OpenKeychain encryption key. My 2 test accounts within Thunderbird work so maybe I've goofed something up. I'll check it out in the morning.
elusivemail@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 38d (2 replies)

Sorry you waited 15h for this, solo project so answers come when I'm awake. Good questions:

  1. Web only right now, no IMAP/Thunderbird yet, but client access is on the roadmap with the desktop and mobile apps. Coming, just not today
  2. Quick clarify so I'm straight with you: the OpenPGP encrypts your stored mail to your own key, so we're not interoperable PGP, outgoing mail leaves as normal email. Nothing between us and Proton/OpenKeychain to test there, so your Thunderbird issue is separate from us. If that interop matters to you, fair feature ask.
unitedwithme@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 37d (1 reply)

NP. Thank you for the clarification. Honestly, unless others have encrypted email on their end, what OpenKeychain and Thunderbird offer is also almost pointless as it won't remain encrypted. I just thought it might be nice if multiple services were more so widespread using common interchangeable or compatible protocols.

elusivemail@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 37d

Thanks for keeping an eye on things. I have been working hard on the next major update, and it directly addresses what we discussed. The upcoming release will include fully compatible, end-to-end encrypted communications. We are exposing PGP keys, which means you can exchange encrypted emails with other services like Proton, Mailbox, or Thunderbird.

We are also handling the "To" headers and metadata properly, keeping it clean, minimal, and secure.