It’s almost comical how quickly conversations about gender inequality are derailed by “whataboutism.” Women are talking about the right to bodily autonomy? Someone has to remind them that men also face pressures. Women are speaking out about harassment? Well, men get harassed too.
It’s like watching someone run onto the scene of a house fire, waving a burnt piece of toast, screaming, “See? We all suffer!”
The irony is that many of the struggles men do face — mental health stigma, rigid gender roles, toxic masculinity — are products of the same patriarchal system feminists are trying to dismantle.
But instead of joining the fight against systemic oppression, some men would rather spend their time insisting that misandry is just as bad as misogyny.
At the end of the day, we need to be able to call things what they are. Yes, men experience hardship. Yes, some women say mean things about men. But one of those things is a personal grievance, and the other is a global, institutionalized system that has stripped women of rights, freedoms, and even their lives.
When we pretend these two things are equal, we don’t just miss the point, we actively make it harder to solve the real problem.
28 Comments
Mongostein@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 13d
While I agree with what you’re saying, I will raise the question: where is the place to talk about men’s issues in a healthy way? They seem really hard to find.
It’s a hole that needs to be filled, because currently it’s being filled by Tates and other shitbirds.
Edited to add: I appreciate the insight. I replied to a couple comments but I just worked a 12-hour shift and am bagged and don’t have the energy to discuss further. I hope everyone is having a nice day. :)
velma@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 13d
I know people don't like these answers, but Reddit had some great men's groups that talked about toxic masculinity and feminism rather frequently. MensLib was one subreddit that was really thoughtful and supportive.
There's ways to talk about men's issues even here in the feminism comm. But it can't be in response to women's issues in a way that dismisses and downplays in order to focus men's issues.
The patriarchy hurts all of us, men, women, enbies, and everyone in between.
Men need to start creating these spaces for other men. Women can't do it all.
Mongostein@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 13d
Yeah Reddit can eat my ass.
I agree with the rest, but it doesn’t really answer my question. I personally have a great friend group that can talk about this stuff, but not everyone has that.
…maybe we should start something locally .. 🤔
velma@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 13d
I was thinking more along the lines of modeling a community in the fediverse after those types of men’s groups on Reddit, but I hear ya!
That’s awesome you have a good friend group. That’s where it starts!
flughoernchen@feddit.org · 9 pts · 13d
It's on men to create those spaces and (potentially, if they want to) to invite others in to join the conversation. Feminist spaces might be a help to find or kickstart those communities, but not the place where those conversations are ought to be held.
Wren@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 12d
The men's group here needs more activity !mensliberation@lemmy.ca
Don't let the name fool you, it's a feminist group.
velma@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 12d
Thanks for linking to the comm! I've subscribed with the intent to lurk.
Wren@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 12d
I lurk too. They have some great discussions.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 13d
The answer is men's groups. That's the only place. Men need to take care of each other. White men in particular need to deconstruct their privilege with and among other white men. They have the means, they have the privilege, they have the time and space, they need to work on themselves together, away from the rest of the world so that the rest of the world can work on their things without further catering to the needs of white men.
Mongostein@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 13d
I disagree that all white men have the space, time, means, and privilege.
This is a broad generalization, which is something I think we should try to avoid about all groups. While the world is run by white men, the majority of white men are not the same people.
The ones that do have the time, space, means, and privilege only seem to enjoy fucking everything up for other people, including lower-classed white men, which is depressing.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 12d
Of all the people in the world, white men are the most likely to have the space, time, and means.
But privilege? All white men have privilege. It's structural. It's inescapable. Think of privilege as the shadow cast by oppression: if black people are oppressed in particular ways, white men are privileged in not being oppressed in those specific ways. If women are oppressed in particular ways, white men are privileged in not being oppressed in those specific ways. You can do this for so many oppressed groups, cis het white men have the most privilege on the world.
vrek@programming.dev · 1 pts · 13d
While I agree with you, generally those groups either don't exist or are repugnant. We all know almost all groups for the empowerment of white people are bad. They mostly are built on hatred of other cultures instead of helping their own culture. The same is true for many "men groups", they are built on hatred of women instead of helping other men.
I used to to work at a pretty progressive workplace. They had an official group for the advancement of women, another for the advancement of asains, another for lgbt+, another for Africans, another for Hispanics. As a cis white male I had no group. Because of history making a group for "white people" would be seen basically like making a hate group. Same thing with making a group for men. Everyone assumes white males have all these advantages so they don't need a group.
I encourage women, black people, LGBT people to grow and be the best they can be. I just wish there was a group for white men which wasn't built on hatred and wasn't living under a shadow of believing it was secretly for hatred.
greatwhitebuffalo41@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 12d
What is your identity then? Because being white isn't it. What you're describing as the pride and such are identifying markers. These groups exists because these people have faced hardships and discrimination based on things they can't change about themselves. Finding community and raising each other up and helping each other find opportunities is necessary when you're already starting a few steps behind the average white male.
Now to address what I think you're actually asking, how do YOU as a white male find a group? Well if it doesn't exist make one. Obviously it's not going to be based on being a white male. But maybe it's based on a hobby or, shared experience. Maybe you're a father and you're looking for other dudes to share parenting and life advice with. Maybe you have a cool hobby you want to discuss. Hell, that's plenty of DnD and boardgames groups if you're into that.
Be the change you want to see. Or rather, create the thing you feel like you need. Maybe that's just a guys group you discuss guy things. That's cool too.
Edit: another thought. These groups exists out of necessity, not out of fun. These marginalized communities have no choice but to come together because we can't do it alone. No one is going to hold your hand and create a community for you. If you need it, you have to put in the work just like we did.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 13d
This is a problem for men to solve. No one else can solve it for them. Non-men can ask others for help in learning from the experience of others in how to create and maintain these groups, but the men must do the work.
White men don't need empowerment. They need healing. Men's groups focused on empowering men are not the men's groups that men need, because men are already empowered.
That's a problem for white people to solve. Non-white people can't build groups to fix this for white people.
A problem for men to solve.
This is a problem for cis white men to solve.
White males DO have all these advantages, and they don't need an empowerment group. If you don't see that, then you may need a men's group.
Can I recommend Punch Up or White Men For Racial Justice?
That shadow will be there until white men organize themselves to address the problems in their community and support each other in the healing process.
vrek@programming.dev · 2 pts · 13d
I agree with everything you are saying except I don't think white men can. I think it will take years to decades of healing to make this possible. Unfortunately we are currently just causing more harm(ice, gop, etc) to ourselves instead of healing.
Yes it's on white men to encourage these groups, I'm not asking for help or asking for some other group to do it. My only point was at current moment if those groups were made they would be assumed to be hate groups and that makes me sad.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 13d
They can. You have to use your own experiences of your own healing to establish the belief you need to do the work with optimism or it will never get done.
It's possible today, it's happening today, but it will take centuries, maybe millennia to repair the harm caused over the last 2k years.
We are not a monolith. The healing and the harming are happening simultaneously.
No. It's on white men to organize, operate, cultivate, and propagate these groups. It's the work that must be done by white men with white men for white men.
You should be.
Good.
And you need groups of white men who can share that sadness and hold space for it so that the healing process can occur.
greatwhitebuffalo41@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 12d
It's almost like being the default race and gender and not having to start in the back like the rest of us has a disadvantage of lack of community. Whereas, starting behind white men has caused the rest of us to have to grow our community and talk to each other and do hard things because otherwise we will never see success.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 12d
Accurate. That's why white men building community are in a position where they need to ask for help from others outside their community. They have to do the work and they have to lead themselves, but they need advice, guidance, support, education, accountability, etc. and in my experience, if the men are doing the work earnestly, there are non-white-men persons out there willing to provide those things, if even only for a short time and in a limited capacity
velma@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 13d
Women, black people, LGBT+ people, and others all had to fight tooth and nail to have these groups, to have the rights we have now. Literally spilled blood for this. We were KILLED during the fight for these rights.
Men have to do the work to create those positive, affirming, and supportive groups for themselves.
vrek@programming.dev · 3 pts · 13d
True. And ultimately most of positive groups for white men are either abandoned or only for octogenarians. For example there was the shriners, rotary club, and free masons(ignoring conspiracy theories) in the 1970s, no one basically joins those these days.
Again I agree it's up to white men to make these groups, it's just difficult to prove your group is not like say the proud boys. Not asking for some other group to take responsibility for making these groups, just lementing that there are not really any left.
velma@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 13d
I totally understand, but this isn't unique to men's groups either. Best to forge ahead and allow the criticisms to fall on deaf ears as long as you're truly creating a positive group.
Mongostein@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 13d
Original asker here.
“White pride” groups are hate groups. Being white is not a culture. There are plenty of white cultures, like Ukrainian, Irish, English, French, etc, that have cultural events and celebrations all the time.
I’m also not a fan of “Asian pride” for the same reason, but would hesitate to call them hate groups. There’s lots of Asian countries with different cultures. Skin tone is nothing to be proud of.
“Black pride” however, is fine because of the whole being-ripped-from-your-homeland-and-all-knowledge-of-it-being-stripped-from-your-ancestors-because-of-slavery thing.
I do agree with you though. Like there’s education grants for every group, but when I went back to school at 35 there was nothing for me but loans. So now I’m in debt, and man… I could use some help too.
vrek@programming.dev · 1 pts · 12d
I agree skin tone is nothing to be proud of but if you split it up by country you shrink your member count so much. Like the asain group, if it was only Japanese group most of the members couldn't join. The option then is to create seperate groups for each country. Depending on how you count "asian" that's what 15 different groups? Similar issue with Europe or Africa.
That's why it's grouped by skin tone.
velma@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 12d
Is it grouped by skin tone or is it grouped by area of origin?
vrek@programming.dev · 2 pts · 12d
I don't really know. I used skin tone because that's what the person before me used
velma@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 12d
Skin tones vary among people of Asian descent.
This whole conversation thread is bordering on some problematic ideas.