While there's LOTS to say about how the Snyderverse played out I will defend to the death the beginning od Batman v Superman. The scene with Bruce Wayne trying to get through Metropolis to save his people as the Superman/Zod fight is destroying the City did a fantastic job establishing Bruce's distruct and fear of Superman.
Then the rest of the movie happened...
I think they could have done great things with the DCEU if they hadn't tried to rush into Justice League so quickly. The first standalone Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and Shazam films all worked and would have worked without Justice League going before. They could have done those along with a more focused Batman v Superman film and had something special.
While Marvel hasn't been on the hot streak it used to have prior to Endgame, they did an awesome job throughout the Infinity saga, and a large part of that was doing a slow burn establishing the characters and universe. They made 5 films (Iron Man, Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, and Captain America) ahead of The Avengers, and it wasn't until Thor 2 they even revealed it what the overarching storyline was.
DCEU was Superman then everything else.
That being said, I'm also enjoying the new DC approach of just jumping in mid-stream with an established world where superheroes exist and are a normal thing, and I'm hoping they still decide to do more with the James Gunn DC after Supergirl faceplanted.
Snyder's Superman, at best, is trying to rediscover his natural instinct to save people after his parents spent two decades instilling self-preservation as his top priority. But even with that generous read, he is filled with fear, anger and resentment for those critical of his actions. And his mother even stokes that resentment in telling him essentially he should be able to do what he wants, because he doesn't owe this world a thing. He's above it all and the world gets what he wants to lower himself to offer them. It's within spitting distance of an Ayn Rand written character.
Gunn's Superman, conversely, is resisting those who are trying to restrain his natural instinct to save people, and his primary fear is that he is actually what it his parents meant him to be. A conqueror above everyone else. But he's filled with love and concern for the world even when it is skeptical of him. And his parents remind him that he is simply a good man above all. Human like everyone else (biology aside). And this parents encourage and are proud of him for dedicating his life to helping others and saving lives.
Offer me Atlas Shrugged Superman or Gunn's Big Blue Boyscout, and it's not even a choice. I'd rather watch Superman save 1000 squirrels every day than ever see Superman be completely apathetic about contributing to millions in Metropolis dying. No contest.
I don’t get it. If anything we see Cavill performing more “firefighter” type rescues, which I take to mean natural disaster type situations with no villains to punch — burning oil rigs, floods, etc. It’s not a focus of either movie, of course.
Snyder's superman is petty and angry. He does have a natural inclination towards helping others, even though his parents spent two decades tamping that and trying to get him to put his own safety over everyone else's. But even when he's doing that, he escalates violence, does petty shit, and takes no accountability (not unlike a cop).
Dump a beer on his head? He impales your truck on a bunch of logs. Take Lois hostage? He'll splatter you through 5 brick walls. Batman steps on your turf? He'll cause him to crash his vehicle into a wall, attempt to intimidate him and issue him a threatening ultimatum.
And that's when he isn't being actively reckless and causing needless deaths and destruction of Smallville and Metropolis. His own attacks, entirely within his control, blow up gas stations, train yards, and skyscrapers. At no point before, during, or after, does he show any concern for or accept accountability for all of these deaths and this destruction. That's literally the plot setup for BvS.
The saving people from the fire on the oil rig as well as pulling the bus full of his peers out of the river are the most Superman-like he is in the entirety of the first two movies. That all happens in the first 7 minutes of the movie after leaving Krypton. The fact that over the 7 minutes after that he his scolded for saving those kids from drowning and then he turns that dude's truck into a tree pin cushion kind of undercut it really quickly though.
Have you ever heard of firefighter brutality? People dying because a firefighter was scared of you? The difference is supposed to be, that you get shot by police when they hear an acorn falling onto their hood and a firefighter will jump into a burning home to carry you out of the flames, topless and sweaty of course.
Ah, okay, so "saves people like a cop" was ironic, and it's just saying Cavill's Superman is like a cop in that he's a cowardly murderer? I was not picking up on that meaning. It's an extreme reading of the films.
A real superman would love being himself, which includes being superman and being Clark Kent, and still have room to struggle for balance between the two. He's meant to be an idealistic icon, a man of steel which implies grit and integrity.
All the Supermen we've had lately were... kind of whiners, tbh. Look at how pouty they are. Calville's suffering from a bad breakup and Corenswet spends the trailer getting hissy with Lane during an interview.
Sure but Superman still has to learn to be Superman.
Since I've been rewatching it recently, let's look at Young Justice Superman. He suddenly has a "son"/clone of himself and he doesn't know how to handle it. It takes Batman to help him figure it out.
Corenswet Superman is annoyed with Lois because he knows he's right and she knows he's right but she's still pretending that he isn't. We could argue that it's more complicated than that and that's exactly what the Justice Gang do when they refuse to help but ultimately... Superman was right and they show up to help when he can't. He inspired action from inaction.
Corenswet Superman does love being Superman, but that doesn't mean he doesn't struggle with the responsibility.
I started watching Supergirl last night and stopped about halfway through. I'll probably finish it, but the story didn't really compel me.
imho, Kara Zor-El should angry all the time. In the comics she's recruited into rage powered Red Lanterns. She knew Krypton before it was destroyed, and has to live with being one of the last members of her race.
The question is: Should Superman feel conflicted about being a god?
It's a valid, but not mandatory, theme for a Superman story. So is Superman having angst about his heritage. It's a matter of execution. People spend way too much time asking "is this what Superman is 'supposed' to be" and not enough time asking whether a story succeeds on its own terms or not.
You make a really good point whilst not invalidating my opinion and I appreciate that.
In line with what you're saying. I think the attempt to make a brighter Superman that was more palatable to wider audiences succeeded. The conflict was more cleanly, comic book "good vs evil" which diverges from gaudy postmodernist nuance. In fact, when Lois Lane tries to bring nuance she is pretty much disregarded in the movie.
27 Comments
FartMaster69@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 69 pts · 6d
Cavill deserved a better movie.
Zorque@lemmy.world · 29 pts · 5d
*movie(s).
FartMaster69@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 5d
I mean if at least one of them was good I’d count it.
Alloi@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 5d
i hope the 40k project goes well for him.
TaterTot@piefed.social · 37 pts · 5d
Fucking loved Gunn's Superman. I could see him growing into the Superman of the comics.
Wish Cavill got the chance to play him, instead of the "Post-Batman Begins DC Superheros have to be edgy as fuck" version.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 4d
While there's LOTS to say about how the Snyderverse played out I will defend to the death the beginning od Batman v Superman. The scene with Bruce Wayne trying to get through Metropolis to save his people as the Superman/Zod fight is destroying the City did a fantastic job establishing Bruce's distruct and fear of Superman.
Then the rest of the movie happened...
I think they could have done great things with the DCEU if they hadn't tried to rush into Justice League so quickly. The first standalone Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and Shazam films all worked and would have worked without Justice League going before. They could have done those along with a more focused Batman v Superman film and had something special.
While Marvel hasn't been on the hot streak it used to have prior to Endgame, they did an awesome job throughout the Infinity saga, and a large part of that was doing a slow burn establishing the characters and universe. They made 5 films (Iron Man, Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, and Captain America) ahead of The Avengers, and it wasn't until Thor 2 they even revealed it what the overarching storyline was.
DCEU was Superman then everything else.
That being said, I'm also enjoying the new DC approach of just jumping in mid-stream with an established world where superheroes exist and are a normal thing, and I'm hoping they still decide to do more with the James Gunn DC after Supergirl faceplanted.
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 5d
Snyder's Superman, at best, is trying to rediscover his natural instinct to save people after his parents spent two decades instilling self-preservation as his top priority. But even with that generous read, he is filled with fear, anger and resentment for those critical of his actions. And his mother even stokes that resentment in telling him essentially he should be able to do what he wants, because he doesn't owe this world a thing. He's above it all and the world gets what he wants to lower himself to offer them. It's within spitting distance of an Ayn Rand written character.
Gunn's Superman, conversely, is resisting those who are trying to restrain his natural instinct to save people, and his primary fear is that he is actually what it his parents meant him to be. A conqueror above everyone else. But he's filled with love and concern for the world even when it is skeptical of him. And his parents remind him that he is simply a good man above all. Human like everyone else (biology aside). And this parents encourage and are proud of him for dedicating his life to helping others and saving lives.
Offer me Atlas Shrugged Superman or Gunn's Big Blue Boyscout, and it's not even a choice. I'd rather watch Superman save 1000 squirrels every day than ever see Superman be completely apathetic about contributing to millions in Metropolis dying. No contest.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 5d
I don’t get it. If anything we see Cavill performing more “firefighter” type rescues, which I take to mean natural disaster type situations with no villains to punch — burning oil rigs, floods, etc. It’s not a focus of either movie, of course.
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 5d
Snyder's superman is petty and angry. He does have a natural inclination towards helping others, even though his parents spent two decades tamping that and trying to get him to put his own safety over everyone else's. But even when he's doing that, he escalates violence, does petty shit, and takes no accountability (not unlike a cop).
Dump a beer on his head? He impales your truck on a bunch of logs. Take Lois hostage? He'll splatter you through 5 brick walls. Batman steps on your turf? He'll cause him to crash his vehicle into a wall, attempt to intimidate him and issue him a threatening ultimatum.
And that's when he isn't being actively reckless and causing needless deaths and destruction of Smallville and Metropolis. His own attacks, entirely within his control, blow up gas stations, train yards, and skyscrapers. At no point before, during, or after, does he show any concern for or accept accountability for all of these deaths and this destruction. That's literally the plot setup for BvS.
The saving people from the fire on the oil rig as well as pulling the bus full of his peers out of the river are the most Superman-like he is in the entirety of the first two movies. That all happens in the first 7 minutes of the movie after leaving Krypton. The fact that over the 7 minutes after that he his scolded for saving those kids from drowning and then he turns that dude's truck into a tree pin cushion kind of undercut it really quickly though.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 4d
And yet, in the end, he does willingly die to save people from billionaire’s runaway death machine. An imperfect person, but better than a cop.
But I get the distinction being made now, thanks.
Magnum@infosec.pub · 2 pts · 5d
Its not about natural disaster lol, its about being a hero and getting shot
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 5d
Definitely still not getting it. They both put themselves in harm's way, right? Cavill's supes dies, even.
Magnum@infosec.pub · 4 pts · 5d
Have you ever heard of firefighter brutality? People dying because a firefighter was scared of you? The difference is supposed to be, that you get shot by police when they hear an acorn falling onto their hood and a firefighter will jump into a burning home to carry you out of the flames, topless and sweaty of course.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 5d
Ah, okay, so "saves people like a cop" was ironic, and it's just saying Cavill's Superman is like a cop in that he's a cowardly murderer? I was not picking up on that meaning. It's an extreme reading of the films.
FluidBeef@quokk.au · 1 pts · 5d
I feel like this needs an extra level of quote posts explaining the simile.
Beacon@fedia.io · 1 pts · 5d
CCMan1701A@startrek.website · 1 pts · 5d
Yes, but where does Dean Cain sit?
njm1314@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 4d
In hell hopefully.
Beacon@fedia.io · 0 pts · 5d
In these screenshots they both look like a crooked cop
FiniteBanjo@feddit.online · -3 pts · 5d
Adequately sums up my dislike for both films.
A real superman would love being himself, which includes being superman and being Clark Kent, and still have room to struggle for balance between the two. He's meant to be an idealistic icon, a man of steel which implies grit and integrity.
All the Supermen we've had lately were... kind of whiners, tbh. Look at how pouty they are. Calville's suffering from a bad breakup and Corenswet spends the trailer getting hissy with Lane during an interview.
MimicJar@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 5d
Sure but Superman still has to learn to be Superman.
Since I've been rewatching it recently, let's look at Young Justice Superman. He suddenly has a "son"/clone of himself and he doesn't know how to handle it. It takes Batman to help him figure it out.
Corenswet Superman is annoyed with Lois because he knows he's right and she knows he's right but she's still pretending that he isn't. We could argue that it's more complicated than that and that's exactly what the Justice Gang do when they refuse to help but ultimately... Superman was right and they show up to help when he can't. He inspired action from inaction.
Corenswet Superman does love being Superman, but that doesn't mean he doesn't struggle with the responsibility.
DagwoodIII@piefed.social · 7 pts · 5d
I started watching Supergirl last night and stopped about halfway through. I'll probably finish it, but the story didn't really compel me.
imho, Kara Zor-El should angry all the time. In the comics she's recruited into rage powered Red Lanterns. She knew Krypton before it was destroyed, and has to live with being one of the last members of her race.
Lonewanderer@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 5d
Gunn's Superman laying on his chair watching videos of his parents like a baby in a cradle took the edge off of Superman for me. It felt more Marvel.
The question is: Should Superman feel conflicted about being a god?
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 5d
It's a valid, but not mandatory, theme for a Superman story. So is Superman having angst about his heritage. It's a matter of execution. People spend way too much time asking "is this what Superman is 'supposed' to be" and not enough time asking whether a story succeeds on its own terms or not.
Lonewanderer@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 5d
You make a really good point whilst not invalidating my opinion and I appreciate that.
In line with what you're saying. I think the attempt to make a brighter Superman that was more palatable to wider audiences succeeded. The conflict was more cleanly, comic book "good vs evil" which diverges from gaudy postmodernist nuance. In fact, when Lois Lane tries to bring nuance she is pretty much disregarded in the movie.
TaterTot@piefed.social · 6 pts · 5d
No.
blartcap_@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 4d
Most versions of Superman don't have an edge. He's called the Big Blue Boy Scout for a reason.
Zorque@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 5d
Depends on whether or not he spends sixty years not using his godly powers to help people and instead curates a museum.