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c/opensource · by xoron@programming.dev · 1y

GNU Taler for payments?

https://www.taler.net/

"privacy friendly online transactions"

I came across this and it's looks interesting it seems to have been out for a while and seems to work well in the demo.

it sounds a bit like Blockchain, but it doesn't seem to be. which i would think makes it more appealing because the setup was easy... but i can't find any examples of it being used in the wild.

i was expecting to see more cases that used it when i saw there is funding for it from https://nlnet.nl/

i think this could be good to add into my app. but i wonder if it might not be a good idea if it hasnt established itself as reliable in the wild.

23 points · 17 comments · view on lemmy.world

17 Comments

poVoq@slrpnk.net · 17 pts · 1y (7 replies)

No, it is a payment system, not a pseudo currency. Think of it as an open-source Paypal.

It has been used as a digital voucher system on some events, and there is afaik a trial with a inofficial regional currency somewhere in Italy.

But mainly people are currently waiting for the first bank to offer an option to charge your Taler wallet with Euros. There is a German coop bank that plans to do so in the comming weeks.

enemenemu@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 1y (4 replies)

Sounds like it'll be superfluous once the digital euro wallet lands

poVoq@slrpnk.net · 7 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Maybe, but the digital Euro has none of the buyer's privacy protection of Taler.

I personally suspect that the digital Euro will not see much every-day uptake because it will be overly bureocratic and a hassle to use, but it might end up as an common way to charge your Taler wallet.

enemenemu@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y

We'll see, it's not far away

moonpiedumplings@programming.dev · 2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

It's very possible that the digital Euro will be a GNU taler system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Taler

n 2020 the project received a grant from NLnet and the European Commission's Horizon 2020 Next

The European Commission is the Executive Arm of the EU.

enemenemu@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y

Commission is not involved in developing the digital euro, afaik. Am I missing something?

xoron@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

thanks for the clarity!

do you have any links to share about it?

poVoq@slrpnk.net · 7 pts · 1y

https://www.gls.de/taler is the page of the German bank.

The forum of the ongoing project has some interesting links, but is sadly not very active: https://ich.taler.net/

unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de · 11 pts · 1y

Its not "out" in any sense. Its an experimental model project. Nobody really accepts it for payment afaik.

https://www.taler.net/en/faq.html

Are there any projects already using Taler?

We are aware of several businesses running exploratory projects or having developed working prototypes. We are also in discussions with several regular banks as well as several central banks about the project. That said, there are currently no products in the market yet, and we believe this would be premature given the state of the project (see also our bugtracker for a list of open issues).

Kissaki@programming.dev · 10 pts · 1y

It's in a process of development and testing in Europe as an official currency/payment technology.

taler.net has a post about that - NGI Taler - too.

We may be seeing much more concrete news and use in and from two years from now.

Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de · 4 pts · 1y (1 reply)

i really wish someone could explain it to me in a way that makes sense, because the concept just seems like complete magic to me

Kissaki@programming.dev · 2 pts · 1y

I looked at Wikipedia; Taler then Blind signature, then looked for docs on GNU Taler where I didn't immediately find any technical overview of how that works. Phind gave me a seemingly reasonable and understandable answer. (Surely sourced from somewhere.)

When we multiply the original message by rere, sign it, and then multiply by r−1r−1, the blinding factors cancel out while preserving the signature.

The success of this process relies on two critical properties:

  • The blinding factor must be relatively prime to N
  • The RSA keypair must satisfy the congruence relation red≡r(modN)red≡r(modN)

The magic is that you can

  1. Apply a mathematical operation on your data
  2. Sign that data
  3. Revert/Invert the mathematical operation

and the signature remains valid.

It does sound like magic. But isn't most of cryptography like that?

There's a python example in there as well, with such a calculation. I didn't go through it though.

drspod@lemmy.ml · -2 pts · 1y (4 replies)

It appears to have all of the downsides of a centralized payment processor (like PayPal, Visa, etc.) and also all of the downsides of a crypto-currency. I would avoid this clusterfuck like the plague.

Taler does not require any Blockchain technology, and is also not based on proof-of-work or any other distributed consensus mechanism.

Your wallet stores digital cash and thus ultimately your computer holds your balance. The Taler Exchange keeps funds matching all unspent digital cash in a settlement account.

Since Taler's digital cash in your wallet is anonymized, the exchange cannot assist you in recovering a lost or stolen wallet. Just like with a physical wallet for cash, you are responsible for keeping it safe.

In case of a compromise of one of your devices, an attacker can spend digital cash from your wallet.

Taler e-money is issued with a validity period. One month before the expiration date, your wallet should automatically exchange any digital cash that is about to expire for new digital cash with an extended validity period. However, if your wallet is offline for an extended period of time, it may be unable to do so. Ensure your wallet is regularly online to avoid losing money due to expiration!

spoonbill@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y

Because it's not a crypto-currency it is a lot more efficient: e.g. no need for wasteful proof-of-work or staking. So it certainly does not have all the downsides of crypto.

FizzyOrange@programming.dev · 0 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Honestly I don't need to know anything about it at all except that it's a payment system designed by GNU to know that it stands zero chance of success.

GNU are uber-geeks that do not comprehend usability at all. They think everyone is happy to go to key exchange parties and run their own servers and so on. There's absolutely no chance this is understandable by normal people.

spoonbill@programming.dev · 2 pts · 1y

Honestly I don’t need to know anything about it at all except that it’s a payment system designed by GNU

Then you seem to know even less then you thought? GNU supports development, but each project is independently designed and developed. Taler's roots are in academia.

rikudou@lemmings.world · 2 pts · 1y

Well, as usual with GNU, there is the chance that someone else will take it and make it useful. They usually have a solid foundation, they're just kinda stuck in the middle ages when it comes to usability.