I think there is some potential for LLMs in games, in the same way that a game like Façade showed potential for ... being able to create some sort of ... thing. But that would require a little bit of artistic vision and integrity, which obviously AAA studios can't have.
I like the idea of games that are about navigating conversation. But I'm not sure you can ever massage a LLM into being in any way compelling—what I've seen of character·ai is pretty ghastly. Maybe only using it as a parser could work? Might as well just be ELIZA.
Anyway, this quote
“It’s very different,” Mosser said. “But for the first time in my life, I can have a conversation with a character I’ve created. I’ve dreamed of that since I was a kid.”
brings to mind a Nabokov quote I think about a lot.
INTERVIEWER:
E. M. Forster speaks of his major characters sometimes taking over and dictating the course of his novels. Has this ever been a problem for you, or are you in complete command?
NABOKOV:
My knowledge of Mr. Forster’s works is limited to one novel, which I dislike; and anyway, it was not he who fathered that trite little whimsy about characters getting out of hand; it is as old as the quills, although of course one sympathizes with his people if they try to wriggle out of that trip to India or wherever he takes them. My characters are galley slaves.
I think it could work as a minor gimmick, like terminal hacking minigame in fallout. You have to convince the LLM to tell you the password, or you get to talk to a demented robot whose brain was fried by radiation exposure, or the like. Relatively inconsequential stuff like being able to talk your way through or just shoot your way through.
Unfortunately this shit is too slow and too huge to embed a local copy of, into a game. You need a lot of hardware compatibility. And running it in the cloud would cost too much.
Yeah plenty of opportunities to just work it into the story.
I dunno what kind of local models you can use, though. If it is a 3D game then its fine to require a GPU, but you wouldn't want to raise minimum requirements too high. And you wouldn't want to use 12 gigs of vram for a gimmick, either.
I read the source. It was pretty funny, but I'm not installing a massive statistical word regurgitator program just to run this. I don't want to be too mean about an anticapitalist piece of art but I don't think posting an LLM-based game here is going to net you a hugely positive reception.
That's fair. Personally, I think the game would be more fun without the LLM (what makes it good is the writing not the tech) but this was to scratch an itch that started when a highschool friend messaged me to insist LLMs are just one breakthrough from taking our jobs.
The only LLM-Based Experience^tm^ I've had so far (and probably ever) was a brief session of Death by AI I had with friends, and that game boils down to "give the chatbot a prompt and your response, and maybe try to not die horribly".
Pretty much all the fun of that game comes from giving the chatbot manmade horrors beyond its comprehension and seeing it struggle to keep up.
Novelty value is basically the only thing LLMs have going for them, and that isn't changing any time soon.
I saw that one Matrix game thing where they used AI to interact with NPCs. I think if that could be refined, it could create fantastic immersion in games.
But AI art and story writing in general is just horrible.
Animal Crossing would be cool. I think AI is actually good if you're using it to procedurally generate content, such as NPC dialogue in a way so it's more interactive.
I was actually considering using an LLM for a project where someone will make a country in a game and name it, then an external body would assign it an ISO-3166 code in the game. I think an LLM is best suited for a task like that.
one game that could benefit from in it within a world confined framework where they couldnt break character or act like an "ai" would be something like project zomboid.
it would be funny trying to convince them they arent real, and they just flip their shit on you. like "you must have lost your mind, i dont feel safe being in your base anymore. zomboids are one thing to worry about, but dealing with a nut job with a god complex is another risk im not willing to take for me, or my family"
they could literally decide amongst themselves to leave or even kill you in mutiny or something. you could maybe convince them you are a messiah and start an end of the world cult by predicting game conditions, the lights going off, the helicopters, the TVs cutting out on specific day.
or maybe they think you are the devil leading them astray based on their randomized era accurate personality profile.
the game memorizes these moments, what you say, how they react, and creates story arcs based on it. maybe one day a survivor leaves your cult, and finds another group, but wants to save her parents. so they send a death squad over and have a jamestown moment where you can convince them all they are going to paradise if they all drink bleach together.
imagine if you read the article at all instead of posting 6 paragraphs about an impossible game you’re fantasizing about, that LLMs do nothing to enable because they’re stochastic chatbots and don’t understand game systems (just like you!)
i just want more complex AI systems in gaming for NPCs and reactive worlds.
but i understand your point, i just dont view the NPCs and how i imagine how they would function, like chatbots. more like expanded personalities with the ability to react more (or less) like a human would in project zomboids game setting. basically adding "The Walking dead" personality structure to the game. unable to go beyond the confines of the lore of the game or their own character.
like stalkers reactive world, combined with sims or rimworlds personality systems. with text based responses that can change based on the world state or your interaction with them.
for instance, if they had a trust or loyalty meter. and i called them means names, or were cruel to them. they could react to that in their own personal way, depending on their personality profile. same as if i was kind or helpful, and said nice things to them. like in sims. just with more varied texts for them to respond with.
its really not too different from most games with NPCs you can talk to. if anything the system would be so simple it would just use similar sentence structures, but swap words out for a different story or outcome in most cases. an example being "arrow to the knee" for one character become "bullet to the thigh" or "mud crab" becomes "daedra" in one story or sentence form another character. so all of them arent regurgitating the same story again and again.
i read it, i am just imaginative enough to think around the issue and find ways to improve upon the error.
and an impossible game?
so there is thing that has existed in games since the first NPC was created, in pong. it is a set list of functions and responses that the NPC can do, known as the NPC AI, or game AI.
what i am suggesting, is that we introduce a limited "generative chat" function that has certain outcomes that have already existed in games since their inception.
we create a profile for the NPC or a personality. and then based on what you say or do to it. like the sims, it has a reaction . however, this version just has world specific responses and actions (like in the already existing game, the sims) however it generates world specific responses with some limited variations without ever breaking character, and would also have limited responses before defaulting to something like "im tired, i dont want to talk anymore" to save on space. similar to how an LLM says you "reached enough tokens for the day" which is also something current NPCs do in game when you reach their limit of content. for example baldurs gate 3, when you talk to someone, and exhaust their dialogue, they give you limited or repeated responses. same as many, many other games. however their reasoning behind why differs in the way of "no more additional content" to "limited by your allowed usage" such as with an LLM
it still would be a simple response system, just more complex than what we currently have. and would adapt to your play style. kind of like the xenomorph in alien isolation, or other horror games that use your play style against you. again, just more complex. its essentially a longer list of "if, and, then" statements for NPCs to follow
there are games that currently exist that have "reactive worlds" this is just another branch of that. which adds further complexity. in a game like zomboid, which is already working on an NPC system, which is a highly moddable game (one of the main reasons people come back to it) and when other moddable games have already added similar features like what i listed, through mods. (bethesda games mainly, skyrim, fallout4, etc) using outsourced AI systems like chatgpt for their generative content. (i am not a fan of this method) however, i can guarantee once NPCs become available. someone will use such a system for their NPC mod if they find the current one limited or unsatisfactory to their playstyle. it is very personal and specific choice. one you would be likely able to switch on and off, like most features in zomboid.
i think creating a game specific AI system that essentially looks at the games content, follows strict character and world driven directives and limitations, and gives responses to your input is not something incredibly "new" its a development of existing systems just slightly more complex and varied.
specifically for a game like project zomboid, having a text window with a max text limit, say maybe 50 or 100 characters would be completely feasible with the right system, and much easier to create than a full chatgpt clone made just for gaming.
it would also allow players to enjoy more in game content without modding in outsourced LLM that wasnt built specifically for that game.
i just want more complex AI systems for replayability and complexity in a game that struggles to find its footing in prolonged end game content.
right now in zomboid you make your base, get set up, fight zombies, and survive for as long as you can. thats the end game. you die, and then do it all again, its play style is meant to be highly tailored to your specific preferences as well, modded or unmodded. with the addition of NPCs in the upcoming update, that changes things. but i can already tell you the devs are working on creating a similar yet perhaps less complex system of thought, memory, action, and reaction for the NPCs they are currently developing, compared to what i have in my minds eye.
generative text in a game is not a new thing.
peoples minds cannot seperate between traditional game AI, and chatgpt AI. and they do not know the difference. i feel like perhaps im not explaining myself well enough for you to understand. and i would like to, because i feel based on my initial comment i was misunderstood, but again this probably isnt the sub to suggest such "devil speak" lol.
i want a reactive text and action based system with simple (yet more complex than expected) systems for the game project zomboid. for replayability and randomization.
and whether you like it or not, gaming in general has always improved and created new ways to implement NPC or gaming AI into their games, and will continue to improve them and their complexity as time passes. Rim world is an excellent example as well, it just doesnt have text responses, just emotes and reactions. as would be the stalker series in the case of a reactive world dictated by the actions of its already existing in game AI systems.
if the writers of the game create a back story, and build the world, the AI system i suggest would just give responses, albeit more randomized and varied, based on that information alone, and player input. in the game project zomboid, it is based in 1994 kentucky. so essentially it would be based on what a super simplified person living in that part of the world at that time may understand, and what you could teach them as the player character. based on the willingness of their personality type. for example, you could maybe teach a NPC how to read or write, do basic math, maybe even teach them a bit about philosophy. the limited number of NPCs in that setting, based on your preference and hardware capabilities could allow for more complex in game relationships and dialogue. you could also turn uo the amount of NPCs make them dumb, or smart, like you can already do with the zomboids in game.
its more complex, sure, but not impossible. im just spitballing some ideas here for a better system. one that if you dont enjoy, you dont have to use. its your playstyle that dictates the version you play.
the game memorizes these moments, what you say, how they react, and creates story arcs based on it
LLMs famously can't be consistent, so your fantasy game would have story arcs that doesn't fit together, brings back characters that are already dead as if nothing happened, and everyone would have a son named Dorian.
not necessarily talking about using current outsourced AI systems like a modded version of skyrim with chatgpt. more like a specifically tailored version. i get your reaction. but it would be more like dwarf fortress, with some text features for NPCs that are more varied, as well as personality profiles and reactions. at least in my head. i highly recommend that game btw. amazing systems.
thats the beauty of project zomboid, you can change virtually all the game world settings to match your play style, so if you didnt like a feature like this. you could turn it off. everybodys happy :D
Most AI usage is hated but I saw a lot of people that were a fan of when Fortnite did it with the Darth Vader NPC a few weeks ago
I thought it was creepy but hearing Vader talk about rizz or aura or the bite of 87 was kinda fun I guess
Because these specific two are growing increasingly irrelevant to the medium and they’re outliers compared to other studios. They’ve both been infamous for years for their exceptionally scummy practice. They’re literally the worst.
if only the industry could be rid of Ubisoft and EA, we could finally play our AAA live service gacha games in peace, without being exploited for money
if only we could go back to the good old days, when the most prominent people in gaming were:
the out and proud fascist who runs Epic
the out and proud fascists who ran id
Todd Howard
fucking Peter Molyneux
it’s ok, a developer who’s existed since the Amiga days has made a good game!
I regret to inform you that the above-mentioned developer has willingly sold their entire studio to EA in exchange for a sack of money and now the sequel is a live service game with gambling mechanics
at least we’ll always have the Wing Commander guy. I wonder what he’s up to?
Huh? I’m not saying the past was better, I’m saying the present is better. Stardew Valley is still #25 on the Steam top seller 100. Balatro, Factorio, Rimworld, Baldur’s Gate 3, Clair Obscur, all proper no ai/nft/blockchain grift products by decent studios in the top 100. The top 2 spots are free-to-plays with various monetization schemes: Counter-Strike 2 & Dota 2. Not my cup of tea, but nevertheless: they’re from Valve. Valve is not exactly known for embracing genAI. It’s simply not gaining traction in the gaming world at the same speed it’s creeping up into Ubisoft & EA.
Valhalla and Shadows are two of the best-selling Assassin's games even though they've been exactly equally as shit and tedious since Origin, so I'd put a [citation needed] on your "increasing irrelevancy".
Also which big game studios don't suck? The list you give below has, the top 10 largest in order,
Sony (I guess defensible, idk),
Tencent (lol), Microsoft (lmao)
Nintendo (legal almost as predatory as Oracle)
NetEase (???)
EA, Epic, Take-Two (sincerely wishing prostate cancer to all three of those CEOs)
their two highest profile failures as of now are Concord, a live service Overwatch clone that was shut down two weeks after launch, and Marathon, an upcoming (or possibly cancelled) Bungie live service Escape from Tarkov clone that doesn’t play well, isn’t anything like the original Marathon games, and infamously has already had several credible accusations of art plagiarism leveled against it. for the latter, I suspect we’ll see a second controversy surface over generative assets; the art that wasn’t plagiarized was starkly ugly and weirdly generic, and I don’t buy that it was that way stylistically.
that shit like this is a normal part of doing business points at a gaming industry that’s rotting at the head, because as unpopular as live service games are, corporations like EA proved they can be very profitable if you tweak the right dopamine receptors to hook enough whales. it’d be nice if EA and Ubisoft were irrelevant now, but unfortunately the industry is still exactly the same exploitative piece of shit they helped make it into. myself and anyone who gives a fuck about quality can keep playing indie games all we want, but these corporations don’t care — they know that a mediocre live service with gambling mechanics will make many times more profit than any indie hit, so they target mediocrity. sometimes they miss and hit rock bottom instead, but who cares? the executives responsible will decimate the studio that developed the game with layoffs or eliminate it entirely, and because capitalism is a death cult that’ll be seen as a win.
My entire experience with Sony is that I loved Patapon on the PSP (I would sell my fucking soul to get it to play on a smartphone god) and I watch The Last of Us and that's it. None of their games exist as far as I'm concerned because I can't play them on PC. What, I'm going to play TLoU 2 without playing 1 or GoW 4 without playing 1-3? Go fuck yourselves.
What, I’m going to play TLoU 2 without playing 1 or GoW 4 without playing 1-3?
Part I and Part II are both on Steam, so you can get the full Last of Us experience without a console, and GoW 2018 is a soft reboot, so playing the original trilogy isn't strictly necessary.
As for GOW 1-3...there's no PC port, so you've got two options: sail the high seas and emulate them via PCSX2 and/or RPCS3, or get the games and a used PS3 off of eBay.
And, given I've already mentioned emulation:
My entire experience with Sony is that I loved Patapon on the PSP (I would sell my fucking soul to get it to play on a smartphone god)
If you're looking for Patapon on your phone, the only course I know of is to grab PSP emulator PPSSPP and find the ISOs online. If you're fine playing them on your PC, a remaster of the first two games is coming to Steam on June 10th.
pretty much same! I’ve heard good things about some of the games published under Sony, and their umbrella as a publisher still includes excellent studios whose previous games I have very good memories of. but… I just can’t swing the price for a PS5, it really doesn’t feel worth it just for a few games, and I’m not a huge fan of the hardware design. they also seem to have fumbled PSVR2, and I was a big fan of the indie VR scene and how accessible it was on the PSVR1. on top of everything else, I feel like I’ve gotten by far more mileage out of open platforms than I have from any modern console — so for me, just like you, most Sony releases are invisible unless they’re the ones that bomb
What a garbage article. I don't hate AI in games. If I could have smart NPC:s in my games that would be the fucking tits. Not to mention that DLSS is basically standard config these days for better performance.
the one that nvidia’s currently pumping as AI is the frame generation one, I believe. upscaling predates the current bubble and is mostly fine — I usually don’t like it outside of very limited use on my steam deck, but that’s personal preference
Anyway, some language models run on the CPU (the one I used did anyway), and many can run decently with modern hardware. The game Suck Up! is the perfect example save for the part where the developers chose to run it server-side on release, though, probably to protect their IP.
I looked for established reviews of Suck Up, the perfect local LLM game that isn’t local and is barely a game, and I couldn’t find any
all of the hype for this piece of shit that came out in 2023 and made zero impact was from paid influencers and the game’s dev Gabriel spamming reddit on a regular basis
so I guess what I’m trying to say is: fuck off with this shit, we’re not buying
The game Suck Up! is the perfect example save for the part where the developers chose to run it server-side on release
the perfect example. yeah, this is barely a game and they couldn’t even make it run locally. all of this shit is just an awful tech demo for an expensive gimmick. none of it is fun, nobody plays it. why in fuck are you even here pumping it?
It's an observation, and why are you coming for me like that?
the perfect example. yeah, this is barely a game and they couldn’t even make it run locally. all of this shit is just an awful tech demo for an expensive gimmick. none of it is fun, nobody plays it. why in fuck are you even here pumping it?
See, this is the type of shit that really grinds my gears on Lemmy because somehow in your mind me pointing out a perfect combination of low level gameplay with low graphics to pair with an LLM server on a user machine suddenly translates into the perfect game that I'm somehow pedaling instead of it being the example that I'm offering.
And also, the original demo of Suck Up was revealed to have its local LLM running, but like I said, the decision was changed.
I'm not big tech or the champion of LLM gaming, you don't need to offload your angst on me vicariously like that. It's so stupid to assume that anyone who talks about Ai must be a loyal supporter, honestly. So, please, back off and take better care understanding what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. And if you're unsure, ask why. I get you're angry but I'm not your personal punching bag.
Not to mention that DLSS is basically standard config these days for better performance.
Ye and that's a fucking travesty and everyone responsible for UE5 should be hanged. And this is the rational, levelled take from me, most people I know would not put it as mildly.
58 Comments
Amoeba_Girl@awful.systems · 19 pts · 1y
I think there is some potential for LLMs in games, in the same way that a game like Façade showed potential for ... being able to create some sort of ... thing. But that would require a little bit of artistic vision and integrity, which obviously AAA studios can't have. I like the idea of games that are about navigating conversation. But I'm not sure you can ever massage a LLM into being in any way compelling—what I've seen of character·ai is pretty ghastly. Maybe only using it as a parser could work? Might as well just be ELIZA.
Anyway, this quote
brings to mind a Nabokov quote I think about a lot.
diz@awful.systems · 12 pts · 1y
I think it could work as a minor gimmick, like terminal hacking minigame in fallout. You have to convince the LLM to tell you the password, or you get to talk to a demented robot whose brain was fried by radiation exposure, or the like. Relatively inconsequential stuff like being able to talk your way through or just shoot your way through.
Unfortunately this shit is too slow and too huge to embed a local copy of, into a game. You need a lot of hardware compatibility. And running it in the cloud would cost too much.
zbyte64@awful.systems · 8 pts · 1y
Or the game could be about a newly laid off worker that has to trick unconscious LLM bots to give them the things they need to survive.
diz@awful.systems · 4 pts · 1y
Yeah plenty of opportunities to just work it into the story.
I dunno what kind of local models you can use, though. If it is a 3D game then its fine to require a GPU, but you wouldn't want to raise minimum requirements too high. And you wouldn't want to use 12 gigs of vram for a gimmick, either.
zbyte64@awful.systems · 1 pts · 1y
Stayed up last night writing it: https://github.com/zbyte64/agent-elysium
Qwen3 with 5 gigs seems to do the trick but it is slow....
bitofhope@awful.systems · 3 pts · 1y
I read the source. It was pretty funny, but I'm not installing a massive statistical word regurgitator program just to run this. I don't want to be too mean about an anticapitalist piece of art but I don't think posting an LLM-based game here is going to net you a hugely positive reception.
zbyte64@awful.systems · 2 pts · 1y
That's fair. Personally, I think the game would be more fun without the LLM (what makes it good is the writing not the tech) but this was to scratch an itch that started when a highschool friend messaged me to insist LLMs are just one breakthrough from taking our jobs.
zbyte64@awful.systems · 1 pts · 1y
For me it would be enough to make a simple concept game in the style of an old dungeon crawl and put it up on GitHub....
BlueMonday1984@awful.systems · 8 pts · 1y
The only LLM-Based Experience^tm^ I've had so far (and probably ever) was a brief session of Death by AI I had with friends, and that game boils down to "give the chatbot a prompt and your response, and maybe try to not die horribly".
Pretty much all the fun of that game comes from giving the chatbot manmade horrors beyond its comprehension and seeing it struggle to keep up.
Novelty value is basically the only thing LLMs have going for them, and that isn't changing any time soon.
simulacra_procession@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1y
IndiBrony@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1y
I saw that one Matrix game thing where they used AI to interact with NPCs. I think if that could be refined, it could create fantastic immersion in games.
But AI art and story writing in general is just horrible.
Flax_vert@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 1y
Animal Crossing would be cool. I think AI is actually good if you're using it to procedurally generate content, such as NPC dialogue in a way so it's more interactive.
I was actually considering using an LLM for a project where someone will make a country in a game and name it, then an external body would assign it an ISO-3166 code in the game. I think an LLM is best suited for a task like that.
Alloi@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 1y
one game that could benefit from in it within a world confined framework where they couldnt break character or act like an "ai" would be something like project zomboid.
it would be funny trying to convince them they arent real, and they just flip their shit on you. like "you must have lost your mind, i dont feel safe being in your base anymore. zomboids are one thing to worry about, but dealing with a nut job with a god complex is another risk im not willing to take for me, or my family"
they could literally decide amongst themselves to leave or even kill you in mutiny or something. you could maybe convince them you are a messiah and start an end of the world cult by predicting game conditions, the lights going off, the helicopters, the TVs cutting out on specific day.
or maybe they think you are the devil leading them astray based on their randomized era accurate personality profile.
the game memorizes these moments, what you say, how they react, and creates story arcs based on it. maybe one day a survivor leaves your cult, and finds another group, but wants to save her parents. so they send a death squad over and have a jamestown moment where you can convince them all they are going to paradise if they all drink bleach together.
the possibilities would be endless.
self@awful.systems · 15 pts · 1y
imagine if you read the article at all instead of posting 6 paragraphs about an impossible game you’re fantasizing about, that LLMs do nothing to enable because they’re stochastic chatbots and don’t understand game systems (just like you!)
swlabr@awful.systems · 12 pts · 1y
“Hey wouldn’t a game where you just talk to chatbots be really fun???” -this fucking guy
Alloi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
i just want more complex AI systems in gaming for NPCs and reactive worlds.
but i understand your point, i just dont view the NPCs and how i imagine how they would function, like chatbots. more like expanded personalities with the ability to react more (or less) like a human would in project zomboids game setting. basically adding "The Walking dead" personality structure to the game. unable to go beyond the confines of the lore of the game or their own character.
like stalkers reactive world, combined with sims or rimworlds personality systems. with text based responses that can change based on the world state or your interaction with them.
for instance, if they had a trust or loyalty meter. and i called them means names, or were cruel to them. they could react to that in their own personal way, depending on their personality profile. same as if i was kind or helpful, and said nice things to them. like in sims. just with more varied texts for them to respond with.
its really not too different from most games with NPCs you can talk to. if anything the system would be so simple it would just use similar sentence structures, but swap words out for a different story or outcome in most cases. an example being "arrow to the knee" for one character become "bullet to the thigh" or "mud crab" becomes "daedra" in one story or sentence form another character. so all of them arent regurgitating the same story again and again.
Alloi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
i read it, i am just imaginative enough to think around the issue and find ways to improve upon the error.
and an impossible game?
so there is thing that has existed in games since the first NPC was created, in pong. it is a set list of functions and responses that the NPC can do, known as the NPC AI, or game AI.
what i am suggesting, is that we introduce a limited "generative chat" function that has certain outcomes that have already existed in games since their inception.
we create a profile for the NPC or a personality. and then based on what you say or do to it. like the sims, it has a reaction . however, this version just has world specific responses and actions (like in the already existing game, the sims) however it generates world specific responses with some limited variations without ever breaking character, and would also have limited responses before defaulting to something like "im tired, i dont want to talk anymore" to save on space. similar to how an LLM says you "reached enough tokens for the day" which is also something current NPCs do in game when you reach their limit of content. for example baldurs gate 3, when you talk to someone, and exhaust their dialogue, they give you limited or repeated responses. same as many, many other games. however their reasoning behind why differs in the way of "no more additional content" to "limited by your allowed usage" such as with an LLM
it still would be a simple response system, just more complex than what we currently have. and would adapt to your play style. kind of like the xenomorph in alien isolation, or other horror games that use your play style against you. again, just more complex. its essentially a longer list of "if, and, then" statements for NPCs to follow
there are games that currently exist that have "reactive worlds" this is just another branch of that. which adds further complexity. in a game like zomboid, which is already working on an NPC system, which is a highly moddable game (one of the main reasons people come back to it) and when other moddable games have already added similar features like what i listed, through mods. (bethesda games mainly, skyrim, fallout4, etc) using outsourced AI systems like chatgpt for their generative content. (i am not a fan of this method) however, i can guarantee once NPCs become available. someone will use such a system for their NPC mod if they find the current one limited or unsatisfactory to their playstyle. it is very personal and specific choice. one you would be likely able to switch on and off, like most features in zomboid.
i think creating a game specific AI system that essentially looks at the games content, follows strict character and world driven directives and limitations, and gives responses to your input is not something incredibly "new" its a development of existing systems just slightly more complex and varied.
specifically for a game like project zomboid, having a text window with a max text limit, say maybe 50 or 100 characters would be completely feasible with the right system, and much easier to create than a full chatgpt clone made just for gaming.
it would also allow players to enjoy more in game content without modding in outsourced LLM that wasnt built specifically for that game.
i just want more complex AI systems for replayability and complexity in a game that struggles to find its footing in prolonged end game content.
right now in zomboid you make your base, get set up, fight zombies, and survive for as long as you can. thats the end game. you die, and then do it all again, its play style is meant to be highly tailored to your specific preferences as well, modded or unmodded. with the addition of NPCs in the upcoming update, that changes things. but i can already tell you the devs are working on creating a similar yet perhaps less complex system of thought, memory, action, and reaction for the NPCs they are currently developing, compared to what i have in my minds eye.
generative text in a game is not a new thing.
peoples minds cannot seperate between traditional game AI, and chatgpt AI. and they do not know the difference. i feel like perhaps im not explaining myself well enough for you to understand. and i would like to, because i feel based on my initial comment i was misunderstood, but again this probably isnt the sub to suggest such "devil speak" lol.
i want a reactive text and action based system with simple (yet more complex than expected) systems for the game project zomboid. for replayability and randomization.
and whether you like it or not, gaming in general has always improved and created new ways to implement NPC or gaming AI into their games, and will continue to improve them and their complexity as time passes. Rim world is an excellent example as well, it just doesnt have text responses, just emotes and reactions. as would be the stalker series in the case of a reactive world dictated by the actions of its already existing in game AI systems.
if the writers of the game create a back story, and build the world, the AI system i suggest would just give responses, albeit more randomized and varied, based on that information alone, and player input. in the game project zomboid, it is based in 1994 kentucky. so essentially it would be based on what a super simplified person living in that part of the world at that time may understand, and what you could teach them as the player character. based on the willingness of their personality type. for example, you could maybe teach a NPC how to read or write, do basic math, maybe even teach them a bit about philosophy. the limited number of NPCs in that setting, based on your preference and hardware capabilities could allow for more complex in game relationships and dialogue. you could also turn uo the amount of NPCs make them dumb, or smart, like you can already do with the zomboids in game.
its more complex, sure, but not impossible. im just spitballing some ideas here for a better system. one that if you dont enjoy, you dont have to use. its your playstyle that dictates the version you play.
mountainriver@awful.systems · 13 pts · 1y
LLMs famously can't be consistent, so your fantasy game would have story arcs that doesn't fit together, brings back characters that are already dead as if nothing happened, and everyone would have a son named Dorian.
Alloi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
not necessarily talking about using current outsourced AI systems like a modded version of skyrim with chatgpt. more like a specifically tailored version. i get your reaction. but it would be more like dwarf fortress, with some text features for NPCs that are more varied, as well as personality profiles and reactions. at least in my head. i highly recommend that game btw. amazing systems.
swlabr@awful.systems · 5 pts · 1y
No thanks!
Alloi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
thats the beauty of project zomboid, you can change virtually all the game world settings to match your play style, so if you didnt like a feature like this. you could turn it off. everybodys happy :D
Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y
As a Zomboid player, definitely could be cool, we're not there with LLMs yet tho, it's have to be really narrow.
visaVisa@awful.systems · -10 pts · 1y
Most AI usage is hated but I saw a lot of people that were a fan of when Fortnite did it with the Darth Vader NPC a few weeks ago I thought it was creepy but hearing Vader talk about rizz or aura or the bite of 87 was kinda fun I guess
dgerard@awful.systems · 25 pts · 1y
yeah the use case for LLMs is amusing novelty. That's why LLMs peaked with GPT-2, it was just the right amount of broken.
BlueMonday1984@awful.systems · 10 pts · 1y
They also needed to rapidly rein it in after gamers got it to pull a Tay AI and start spamming slurs.
luciole@beehaw.org · -11 pts · 1y
Ubisoft and EA are terminally rotten corporations. Not really fair to characterize game studios over what those are up to.
dgerard@awful.systems · 12 pts · 1y
I'm not seeing how it's not fair to talk about what gaming studios do in terms of two of the largest.
swlabr@awful.systems · 9 pts · 1y
They targeted game studios. Game studios.
luciole@beehaw.org · -8 pts · 1y
Because these specific two are growing increasingly irrelevant to the medium and they’re outliers compared to other studios. They’ve both been infamous for years for their exceptionally scummy practice. They’re literally the worst.
self@awful.systems · 12 pts · 1y
if only the industry could be rid of Ubisoft and EA, we could finally play our AAA live service gacha games in peace, without being exploited for money
if only we could go back to the good old days, when the most prominent people in gaming were:
dgerard@awful.systems · 7 pts · 1y
look Star Citizen will own
dgerard@awful.systems · 6 pts · 1y
notice how Take Two didn't rate the wild response, and neither of the companies in the Aftermath article were EA or Ubisoft
luciole@beehaw.org · 0 pts · 1y
Huh? I’m not saying the past was better, I’m saying the present is better. Stardew Valley is still #25 on the Steam top seller 100. Balatro, Factorio, Rimworld, Baldur’s Gate 3, Clair Obscur, all proper no ai/nft/blockchain grift products by decent studios in the top 100. The top 2 spots are free-to-plays with various monetization schemes: Counter-Strike 2 & Dota 2. Not my cup of tea, but nevertheless: they’re from Valve. Valve is not exactly known for embracing genAI. It’s simply not gaining traction in the gaming world at the same speed it’s creeping up into Ubisoft & EA.
V0ldek@awful.systems · 8 pts · 1y
Valhalla and Shadows are two of the best-selling Assassin's games even though they've been exactly equally as shit and tedious since Origin, so I'd put a [citation needed] on your "increasing irrelevancy".
Also which big game studios don't suck? The list you give below has, the top 10 largest in order,
self@awful.systems · 7 pts · 1y
their two highest profile failures as of now are Concord, a live service Overwatch clone that was shut down two weeks after launch, and Marathon, an upcoming (or possibly cancelled) Bungie live service Escape from Tarkov clone that doesn’t play well, isn’t anything like the original Marathon games, and infamously has already had several credible accusations of art plagiarism leveled against it. for the latter, I suspect we’ll see a second controversy surface over generative assets; the art that wasn’t plagiarized was starkly ugly and weirdly generic, and I don’t buy that it was that way stylistically.
that shit like this is a normal part of doing business points at a gaming industry that’s rotting at the head, because as unpopular as live service games are, corporations like EA proved they can be very profitable if you tweak the right dopamine receptors to hook enough whales. it’d be nice if EA and Ubisoft were irrelevant now, but unfortunately the industry is still exactly the same exploitative piece of shit they helped make it into. myself and anyone who gives a fuck about quality can keep playing indie games all we want, but these corporations don’t care — they know that a mediocre live service with gambling mechanics will make many times more profit than any indie hit, so they target mediocrity. sometimes they miss and hit rock bottom instead, but who cares? the executives responsible will decimate the studio that developed the game with layoffs or eliminate it entirely, and because capitalism is a death cult that’ll be seen as a win.
V0ldek@awful.systems · 6 pts · 1y
My entire experience with Sony is that I loved Patapon on the PSP (I would sell my fucking soul to get it to play on a smartphone god) and I watch The Last of Us and that's it. None of their games exist as far as I'm concerned because I can't play them on PC. What, I'm going to play TLoU 2 without playing 1 or GoW 4 without playing 1-3? Go fuck yourselves.
BlueMonday1984@awful.systems · 7 pts · 1y
Part I and Part II are both on Steam, so you can get the full Last of Us experience without a console, and GoW 2018 is a soft reboot, so playing the original trilogy isn't strictly necessary.
As for GOW 1-3...there's no PC port, so you've got two options: sail the high seas and emulate them via PCSX2 and/or RPCS3, or get the games and a used PS3 off of eBay.
And, given I've already mentioned emulation:
If you're looking for Patapon on your phone, the only course I know of is to grab PSP emulator PPSSPP and find the ISOs online. If you're fine playing them on your PC, a remaster of the first two games is coming to Steam on June 10th.
(I am deep in the weeds on this shit, I'll admit)
V0ldek@awful.systems · 4 pts · 1y
Oh my god this is the best news I've heard this year
self@awful.systems · 5 pts · 1y
pretty much same! I’ve heard good things about some of the games published under Sony, and their umbrella as a publisher still includes excellent studios whose previous games I have very good memories of. but… I just can’t swing the price for a PS5, it really doesn’t feel worth it just for a few games, and I’m not a huge fan of the hardware design. they also seem to have fumbled PSVR2, and I was a big fan of the indie VR scene and how accessible it was on the PSVR1. on top of everything else, I feel like I’ve gotten by far more mileage out of open platforms than I have from any modern console — so for me, just like you, most Sony releases are invisible unless they’re the ones that bomb
FredFig@awful.systems · 8 pts · 1y
Being the worst and the biggest studios aren't unrelated concepts, they're the biggest because they're the worst.
dgerard@awful.systems · 9 pts · 1y
reminded of the guy who said i could get rid of my problems with SPF/DMARC/DKIM by just not accepting mail from Gmail
this was his advice for a business with ordinary customers btw
luciole@beehaw.org · -2 pts · 1y
I assure you it’s much easier gaming all day without touching EA or Ubi than it is rejecting gmail on a storefront.
dgerard@awful.systems · 7 pts · 1y
i really don't care, you fuckin weirdo
luciole@beehaw.org · -1 pts · 1y
EA is 6th, Ubi is 22th
Murvel@lemm.ee · -19 pts · 1y
What a garbage article. I don't hate AI in games. If I could have smart NPC:s in my games that would be the fucking tits. Not to mention that DLSS is basically standard config these days for better performance.
self@awful.systems · 11 pts · 1y
oh wow, the one Gamer who doesn’t hate frame generation for looking like shit has joined the chat
bye bye Gamer
dgerard@awful.systems · 11 pts · 1y
lol people fuckin hate DLSS
Amoeba_Girl@awful.systems · 6 pts · 1y
Are we talking upscaling DLSS or specifically the frame generation thing that I didn't know existed? The upscaling's alright I think.
self@awful.systems · 6 pts · 1y
the one that nvidia’s currently pumping as AI is the frame generation one, I believe. upscaling predates the current bubble and is mostly fine — I usually don’t like it outside of very limited use on my steam deck, but that’s personal preference
self@awful.systems · 9 pts · 1y
also:
it’s fascism except when the exact same backend is used to make the NPCs in my garbage generative games say fash shit, then there’s no harm done
what the fuck even are you
Lemminary@lemmy.world · -6 pts · 1y
Why can't a game run its own tiny local server to manage the NPCs? I think it's been done.
self@awful.systems · 6 pts · 1y
for an LLM? it’s a heavy GPU-bound workload that’ll tank performance for anything else using the GPU
Lemminary@lemmy.world · -7 pts · 1y
Weird that you're downvoting me already. Lol
Anyway, some language models run on the CPU (the one I used did anyway), and many can run decently with modern hardware. The game Suck Up! is the perfect example save for the part where the developers chose to run it server-side on release, though, probably to protect their IP.
Other games have also been published with local LLMs like Origins and Ouija Online since last year.
self@awful.systems · 8 pts · 1y
you know it’s weird
I looked for established reviews of Suck Up, the perfect local LLM game that isn’t local and is barely a game, and I couldn’t find any
all of the hype for this piece of shit that came out in 2023 and made zero impact was from paid influencers and the game’s dev Gabriel spamming reddit on a regular basis
so I guess what I’m trying to say is: fuck off with this shit, we’re not buying
Lemminary@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
Oh, you seem to take things personally for some reason as if I'm the one in charge. Well, I'm not.
My point still is: it's possible and it has been done whether you want to or care to know.
And no, I'm not a threw blind supporter of LLMs, I'm simply pointing out that it's possible and it has been done.
Have the day you deserve either way.
self@awful.systems · 6 pts · 1y
weird that you’re complaining
the perfect example. yeah, this is barely a game and they couldn’t even make it run locally. all of this shit is just an awful tech demo for an expensive gimmick. none of it is fun, nobody plays it. why in fuck are you even here pumping it?
Lemminary@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
It's an observation, and why are you coming for me like that?
See, this is the type of shit that really grinds my gears on Lemmy because somehow in your mind me pointing out a perfect combination of low level gameplay with low graphics to pair with an LLM server on a user machine suddenly translates into the perfect game that I'm somehow pedaling instead of it being the example that I'm offering.
And also, the original demo of Suck Up was revealed to have its local LLM running, but like I said, the decision was changed.
I'm not big tech or the champion of LLM gaming, you don't need to offload your angst on me vicariously like that. It's so stupid to assume that anyone who talks about Ai must be a loyal supporter, honestly. So, please, back off and take better care understanding what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. And if you're unsure, ask why. I get you're angry but I'm not your personal punching bag.
V0ldek@awful.systems · 6 pts · 1y
Ye and that's a fucking travesty and everyone responsible for UE5 should be hanged. And this is the rational, levelled take from me, most people I know would not put it as mildly.
swlabr@awful.systems · 5 pts · 1y
Ah yes, the sole decider of what is good and fun in a game, industry standards.