word

https://ludosphere.fr/@PotDeFleur/116852935337741362

661 points · 30 comments · view on lemmy.world

30 Comments

FireRetardant@lemmy.world · 45 pts · 37d (9 replies)

To counterpoint the human nature point. Many have said violence is in human nature. Now weither thats true or not is certainly up for debate but it has been said for far longer than 100 years. A similar point could be made for people cheating on their spouses, many say thats part of human nature. Those are just the 2 that come to mind.

skulblaka@sh.itjust.works · 33 pts · 37d (3 replies)

Violence is inherent to our entire evolutionary tree, nature kills to eat. I think it's fair to say that violence is a part of human nature. It's a part of the nature of every predatory animal on Earth, and some plants, and I think you could probably successfully argue that even herbivores are inflicting violence on plants because they're destroying and consuming an organism.

subverted_per@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 22 pts · 37d

I'll add to this an anecdote. My neighborhood is near a nature preserve. We get all kinds of animals theough here, but mostly racoon, possums and armadillo. Oh and feral cats. For a while we would occasionally have critters fighting in our yard. You'd hear it at night especially during summer. Not so much lately.

See a few years ago we got a feral kitten fixed as part of our local colony management group. Cat decided to stay, and we've been looking after her. Friendly, but stand-offish. We make sure shes fed, but let her do her own thing. Hasn't shown much interest in the inside.

We noticed that in the evenings raccoons would show up to steal her food. We chased em away, but theyd just come back later. The thing was that cat would sit there and watch the raccoons. She even moved out of the way once she was done, and let the raccoons have their share. Its been a few years now, and our yard cat manages things between other cats, the raccoons and the possums, and sometimes armadillos and nobody fights about it. Heck sometimes we find a small crowd waiting for our cat to summon the food for them.

The point being, violence may be an inherent part of nature, and the wilderness. However even animals when they dont have to work so hard to survive will cooperate when its to everyone's advantage. Which means that anyone who tells you that violence is the only law of nature is full of shit, and is really just telling on themselves. In my opinion.

OwOarchist@pawb.social · 16 pts · 37d

you could probably successfully argue that even herbivores are inflicting violence on plants because they’re destroying and consuming an organism.

Don't need to stretch that far.

Lots of herbivores use violence, either in defense against predators or in competition with their own species for territory, resources, or mates. I'd even go as far as to say that the majority of them do, at least for the first of those two purposes -- it's rare to find an herbivore so passive that it wouldn't use 'violence' to protect itself against a predator attack if necessary.

shroomato@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 36d

There's a difference when violence results from instinct and/or having no other choice, and actively choosing violence. But this distinction is even more damning, as we see many smarter animals become capable of cruelty/spite/malice. Like that tiger who stalked and killed a man in revenge, or dolphins/orcas inventing elaborate methods of toying with their prey, or chimps being outright genocidal psychos.

LongLive@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 37d

to counteract your point this generation trusts strangers on the internet more than any other /s

LePoisson@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 37d

I don't think you get to be the apex predator on an entire planet without some level of violence in your nature. We got so good at murder it's just casually in the background courtesy of the vast ag-industry slaughtering tens of thousands of animals daily around the world.

Also, see: humans killing each other since forever and ever.

explodicle@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 36d (1 reply)

In case anyone else was curious, 23% of men and 19% of women have cheated.

I thought it was normal too! Both my spouse and I have cheated on past significant others when we were young, I guess we deserve each other.

FireRetardant@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 36d

In my experience, these numbers seem very low. Ive never cheated but I've been cheated on in nearly every relationship ive been in and many of my friends have as well or have been the cheater. I'd believe these numbers as the percentage caught cheating. If it was self reported, which is probably the only way to collect that data, I'd assume some people lied.

M137@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 37d

People who cheat is not the norm though, it's very much not human nature. A part of humanity (or any species) doing bad stuff doesn't make it the nature of that species. Pedophilia has also been going on for as long as humans have existed but it's not human nature, it's some individuals being sociopaths and have a mental issue that makes them attracted to something over 99% of everyone aren't.

Jankatarch@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 37d (1 reply)

Every single middle-eastern bigot I seen says "these are sexual perversion invented and pushed by the west to corrupt your generation" meanwhile studying middle-eastern history always goes something like

"Despite objections from the religious class, the sultans traditionally kept a harem of young men that would be dressed in feminine clothes and made to dance, homoerotic paintings of even earlier homoerotic poems became more and more popular over certain eras, and also gay bathouses regularly showed up in tax docments, until late 19th century when westernization..."

::: spoiler Tap for example wikipedia articles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_Iran

Many of the famous love stories celebrated by these poets were between kings and their male servants or slaves. Sometimes, the beloved was the possession of a more powerful individual. Outside of royal courts, homosexuality and homoerotic expressions were accepted in various public settings, including monasteries, seminaries, taverns, military camps, bathhouses, and coffee houses. During the early Safavid era, male houses of prostitution were legally recognized and even paid taxes.

A shift in the view of same-sex relation emerged during the nineteenth century. European

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender_minorities_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

Nev'îzâde Atâyî's manuscript Hamse, which contains several accounts of moral tales with the final chapter detailing a tale of same-sex male lovers.
Concepts such as gay, lesbian or transgender did not exist in the Ottoman era. Homosexuality was de jure governed by a blend of Qanun (sultanic law) and Islamic religious laws, which translated to negative legalistic perspectives, but also lenient-to-nonexistent enforcement. Therefore, negative perspectives often did not lead to legal sanctions, with rare exceptions. Public norms exhibited fluid gender expressions (particularly for younger males), and attitudes toward same-sex relationships were diverse, often categorized by age and expected roles.
Literature and art flourished as significant mediums for discussing gender and sexuality, with Ottoman poets openly exploring same-sex love in the arts until the 19th century, when westernization led to the stigmazitation of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_Egypt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_Tunisia

:::

architectonas@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 37d

I can recommend reading Foucault's The History Of Sexuality. He explains how gender categories serve the exercise of power upon humans. This is particularly interesting given how important self-definition is in queer community.

plantfanatic@sh.itjust.works · 26 pts · 37d (6 replies)

Shouldn’t human nature evolve too though?

At one point it was “natural” to live in a cave, not so much nowadays.

Kwdg@discuss.tchncs.de · 34 pts · 37d (1 reply)

Yes, that is why it is a social construction of the last 100 years. The post is saying that all (or at least many things) we consider human nature are not older than 100 years, at any time in human history

Lodespawn@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 37d
[ removed ]
Cytobit@piefed.social · 28 pts · 37d (1 reply)

The caveman is a stock character representative of primitive humans in the Paleolithic. The popularization of the type dates to the early 20th century, when Neanderthals were influentially described as "simian" or "ape-like" by Marcellin Boule and Arthur Keith.

So yeah, about 100 years for the caveman meme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveman

OwOarchist@pawb.social · 19 pts · 37d

Also, the vast majority of people in this time period did not live in caves. It's just that caves are much better at preserving traces, so much of the evidence for these early peoples that still exists is found in caves.

To think that they were 'cave men' and mostly lived in caves is like, well, seeing dinosaur footprints preserved in mud and therefore thinking that dinosaurs spent most of their time stomping around in mud.

SarahValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 13 pts · 37d

You're describing too specific a behavior, not nature. Nature is more like:

"It is in man's nature to seek shelter from the elements", and this suffices to describe men who dwell in caves, houses, or anything else.

HogginAnDoggin@thelemmy.club · 6 pts · 37d

Well no. It's natural for humans to seek shelter, caves are very dangerous particularly when we still had mega fauna around, and what is you home but not a fancy safe cave.

Leviathan@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 37d

Traditions are rarely more than a century or two old. Your ancestors didn't give a fuck about what your grandparents care about.

Religion also becomes insanely silly when you see it sprout up, badly recycling stuff from the previous religion.

snooggums@piefed.world · -4 pts · 37d (10 replies)

Ah yes, the ancient Egyptian complaint about 'this generation' spending too much time on their phones.

Timeless!

Edit: I love that that this one keeps getting down voted and my explanation comment keeps getting upvoted. Never change fediverse.

wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 39 pts · 37d (4 replies)

You joke, but one of the big Greek philosophers (Socrates maybe? I dunno) had a big rant about how relying on written texts instead of memorizing everything would make people stupid.

The specifics have changed, but "those damn kids" type complaints are truly timeless.

Eq0@literature.cafe · 23 pts · 37d (1 reply)

And Seneca (I think) complained of “these kids going partying until the early morning lights” and dressing “inappropriately”

“Those damn kids!”

Einskjaldi@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 37d

Children today are tyrants!

snooggums@piefed.world · 9 pts · 37d (1 reply)

The joke was taking it literally instead of acknowledging the changing reason for the youth spending too much time doing something (music/books/movie/tv/games/phones).

protist@retrofed.com · 2 pts · 37d

Kids using the written word and polyphonics really get my goat

finalarbiter@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 11 pts · 37d (2 replies)

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and chatter in the place of exercise."

- Socrates Kenneth John Freeman, for his Cambridge dissertation published in 1907, summarizing complaints directed against young people in ancient times.

andros_rex@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 37d (1 reply)

Not a real Socrates quote. It’s very popular to make up this genre of quote.

finalarbiter@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 37d

Oh damn, TIL.

It was crafted by a student, Kenneth John Freeman, for his Cambridge dissertation published in 1907. Freeman did not claim that the passage under analysis was a direct quotation of anyone; instead, he was presenting his own summary of the complaints directed against young people in ancient times.

From Quote investigator

tabarnaski@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 37d (1 reply)

See also: Pliny the young complaining about how chariots getting bigger and bigger made the streets unsafe for Roman pedestrians.

BreakerSwitch@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d

Knowing Pliny's disdain for chariot races, I actually looked for this one, going "no way, no way." I wanted it to be real so bad.