Waiting for Capitalism to collapse, so we can get this over with to reverse the climate change and have nice memes, technology, games and the good ending

484 points · 61 comments · view on lemmy.world

61 Comments

salacious_coaster@infosec.pub · 67 pts · 294d (1 reply)

I also wish all my problems would go away magically

ivanafterall@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 293d

Maybe it'll be the same day my Mrs. Right appears. It's been so long, the universe must really have a romantic surprise up its sleeve for me! Squee!

Bababasti@feddit.org · 40 pts · 294d (14 replies)

Stop the passive waiting, OP

marcos@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 294d (7 replies)

Burning everything will surely help Climate Change!

NotSteve_@piefed.ca · 8 pts · 294d (4 replies)

I mean, in this theoretical situation it would. Ignoring the fact that it's metaphorical, it's sort of like saying we shouldn't build windmills or nuclear power plants because the construction produces co2

blarghly@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 293d (3 replies)

I mean.... maybe burning everything down would mitigate climate change. But the collapse of global supply chains would lead to billions losing access to sufficient food, clean drinking water, internet, electricity/modern heating, medicine, etc. We would see mass migrations, war, famine, disease, and ecological devastation, all on a scale never before seen in the history of humanity. Ie, all the things we are trying to stop climate change in order to avoid.

Like, let's say you murder the CEO of Exxon Mobile and light all their facilities on fire. The company vanishes, and everyone is scared to try to fill their niche (this wouldn't happen, btw, they would just beef up security). Now whatever nation you are in has no oil. Immediately, the entire economy based on ICE vehicles grinds to a halt. Food shortages start within days. So do shortages of critcial medicines. Rural people are forced to decide between scratching a living off the land or abandoning their homes. All production of new plastics stops. Everyone who used to drive a car now spends hours more commuting each day. Everyone involved in oil and gas loses their jobs and start rioting in the streets. Blackouts and brownouts become common as coal and NG plants go offline. People start burning whatever is nearby in order to stay warm. Stressed out moms start murdering each other at the grocery store over rolls of paper towels. Etc.

witten@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 293d (2 replies)
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blarghly@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 293d (1 reply)

I mean, I 100% agree with you that there are other, better options. But those other, better options aren't represented with a molotov.

witten@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 293d
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Bababasti@feddit.org · 4 pts · 294d

I mean.. in a sense it would, no? (Not that I would want that tho)

PrimeMinisterKeyes@leminal.space · 1 pts · 293d

It has to get worse before it can get better.

JasonDJ@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 294d

Oooh using gasoline to fight climate change. Literally fighting fire with fire. I like it.

the_q@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 294d (4 replies)
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Bababasti@feddit.org · 2 pts · 294d (3 replies)

That’s a lot of assuming you’re doing there.

the_q@lemmy.zip · -1 pts · 294d (2 replies)
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AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 293d (1 reply)

If they were, it would be extremely foolish to answer your question honestly.

Even if they did say yes, you wouldn't believe them anyway, so what's the point in asking?

the_q@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 293d
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Hegar@fedia.io · 21 pts · 294d (8 replies)

While i too yearn for the downfall of capitalism, pre-capitalist societies were still responsible for environmental distruction, slavery and genocide.

As long as individuals or a small elite have enough power to enforce their needs over the needs of everyone else, we'll always have capital-b Badnesses.

We have to usher in the collapse of perminant heirarchies, whatever form they take.

JasonDJ@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 294d (4 replies)

We really need the death of money more than we need the death of capitalism. Because you're right, even before rampant capitalism, we still weren't really great to each other.

What's amazing to me is I'm perfectly content to live and let live. My neighbors, friends, family, all of us....ain't got no beef with anybody. Why does this fail so badly when scaled up?

Hegar@fedia.io · 5 pts · 294d (2 replies)

There's a lot of neuroscience showing that social power suppresses empathy in the brain. Status, privilege, wealth, etc. make almost everyone less able to consider the pain of others.

Most of us can be reasonable with people we know. But the socially powerful are making most of the important higher-scale decisions, and they are neurologically the least capable of making good decisions on behalf of others.

Or that's how i see the problem.

JasonDJ@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 294d (1 reply)

Well that makes the problem even more blatantly obvious...the problem is social hierarchy. It's impossible to have equality and hierarchy simultaneously...they are mutually exclusive.

They (the ruling classes) are vastly outnumbered, yet they manage to gain control over the masses below them, such that we must support them or the whole thing crumbles.

They've got the supporting class believing that we need them....but really that couldn't be further from the truth.

The problem is, though, as soon as one ruler is gone, another replaces them, and that one is equally corrupt. And the cycle repeats.

But conversely, I don't see how a non-hierarchal society could function, because that implies there must be some sort of order, mediation, and enforcement, which automatically means that some people will have authority over others, no matter how you slice it.

Hegar@fedia.io · 1 pts · 294d

There are lots of ways to organize people that aren't heirarchical, or that dilute or limit power rather than concentrating it.

Directly voting for laws, appointing officials by sortition - like being picked for jury duty, pushing decisions down to neighbourhood councils, consensus decision making, a culture that always permits insulting the successful and plenty else has been suggested.

It all comes with drawbacks of it's own, of course. And having grown up in a heirarchical society, it can be very hard to imagine anything else, until you read about all the times and places where people have organized themselves differently.

merc@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 293d

Before there was money there was debt. Debt goes back thousands and thousands of years.

My neighbors, friends, family, all of us

That's exactly why. You described a band, a tribe, a group. People not in that group are not in your band / tribe / group. So, you don't really need to share your wealth with people from outside your group. Nobody can know and love 8 billion other people. Humans are still fundamentally apes, and that's just not in our ape nature.

merc@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 293d (2 replies)

We have to usher in the collapse of [permanent hierarchies]

That would be nice, but is it realistic? It's not just that humanity has always had hierarchies. It's that it seems to be a feature of even the animal kingdom. It also seems like when people try to create a system without hierarchies, someone steps into the power vacuum. The end result is that things are even worse for the people at the bottom.

Maybe a better plan is to accept that human animals are going to end up having hierarchies, and instead of trying to completely eliminate them, instead aim to shrink them as much as possible while still maintaining a functional government that at least somewhat answers to the people at the bottom.

Hegar@fedia.io · 1 pts · 293d (1 reply)

I was careful to say perminant heirarchies for that reason. Bao Jingyan said that power originates in the contrast between the weak and the strong, and the cunning and the naive. I'm inclined to agree.

But we can have social institutions that break up and flush out these natural channels of inequality, rather than institutions that metastize them into heirarchies.

Aristotle discussed a then-current idea to redistribute all personal wealth above 5x the poorest citizen. We could tax all inheritance above say 500k at 100%. Eliminate all personal debt every 7 years.

There's a lot we can do to make heirarchies more temporary.

merc@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 293d

Yeah, but nothing is perminant, (or permanent). All hierarchies are temporary because everything is temporary.

Aristotle discussed a then-current idea to redistribute all personal wealth above 5x the poorest citizen

People have come up with ideas since forever. I'm sure the first philosophy on the redistribution of wealth was "Unga bunga, bunga unga bunga!" The problem is putting those ideas into practice. So far, when people try to eliminate hierarchies, the result is that someone comes in and takes advantage of the people who don't think there's a hierarchy.

Humanity itself may be temporary, but it seems like the idea of hierarchies will outlive humanity.

ZkhqrD5o@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 293d (5 replies)

Remember everyone, if your utopia relies on the idea that everyone just peacefully gives up their power, it is doomed to fail.

IMHO: We all should strive to be the change we want to see in the world. But sometimes it's even enough to just be the person that you wish to see in the world more often.

Jankatarch@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 293d (4 replies)

Tbf the chance I want to see in the world is "common sense" tho, so not much I can get better upon to help.

Like people are geniuenly trying to make fascism popular again so what am I supposed to self-improve at, punching?

ZkhqrD5o@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 293d

IMO: punching would be useful in keeping fascists out of a community, if nothing else helps.

vga@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 293d (2 replies)

Unfortunately it seems to me that the nazis are being way better at self-improving their punching. At least here in northern europe, they frequently hold training camps with pretty rough sparring.

boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 293d (1 reply)

Ugh. Sons of Odin or whatever still a thing, or some new groups?

vga@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 292d
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HasturInYellow@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 294d (1 reply)

My sweet summer child... We missed our chance. The revolution isn't coming. Or maybe it will happen and then we will die anyways. The climate is fucked. There is no unfucking it. We can fuck it a little less than we currently are every year, but that isn't going to save us.

The effects of this will rival the Permian extinction in the near term and in the long term, barring a miraculous turnaround through geological processes after a few thousand years, it will certainly be worse.

For reference, the Permian extinction wiped out 90% of ALL LIFE. Like 75% of land based life and 95% of all sea life (of which there was considerably more) at the time died out. It was caused by a sudden and severe increase in atmospheric greenhouse gasses over the course of several thousand years. We are outpacing that by orders of magnitude. So we could quite conceivably reach the levels seen during that time and we could do it much faster, giving all life even less time to adapt to the worst catastrophy in the history of life.

We're boned, my dude.

Eq0@literature.cafe · 1 pts · 293d

We haven’t crossed the point of no return. We are accelerating because we keep press on the acceleration. If we stopped (as we did temporarily during Covid), stuff would get back on track. We have to act now

merc@sh.itjust.works · 15 pts · 293d (2 replies)

If capitalism collapses, we're most likely going back to feudalism, not ten-forward to Star Trek.

Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org · 6 pts · 293d

I wish to highlight that between the Bell Riots and the Phoenix, ST predicted that there would be both the Eugenics Wars and WW3, which leave the world so badly broken that the only "nations" that remain are the Western Alliance and the Eastern Coalition. Alameda, CA gets completely blown off the map; and it's not the only such place.

It's not a pretty picture, when you look at the history they gloss over.

krooklochurm@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 293d

For a while. Maybe the rest of our lives. We'd come out of it eventually.

Maybe in 1000 years democracy will have a resurgence and we'll have a global democratic government.

Until people get complacent and it stops working and the whole thing collapses in on itself resulting in a return to feudalism.

Doctorbllk@slrpnk.net · 14 pts · 293d (1 reply)

The industrial mechanisms that promote climate change would not die with capitalism.

witten@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 293d
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DmMacniel@feddit.org · 10 pts · 294d (5 replies)

But what about the meme economy?

abbadon420@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 294d (1 reply)

I'm willing to sacrifice the value of your meme collection in order to save the planet

DmMacniel@feddit.org · 4 pts · 294d

My Meme Collection?

No comrade, our meme collection will wave the planet!

MacNCheezus@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 294d (2 replies)

That’s the only economy in which communism works

ChilledPeppers@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 294d (1 reply)

Everyone can have memes, there is no scarcity of it. Happy cake day!

MacNCheezus@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 294d

Thank you!

Formfiller@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 294d (1 reply)

We’re a lot more likely to Balkanize and divide

ivanafterall@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 294d

I think we might see some form of separation.

lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com · 9 pts · 294d

Central planning economies have ruined the planet disproportionately compared to their liberal, market economy counterparts. Consider the USSR: compared to the US, a better environmental record might be expected due to their command economy. To the contrary

Total emissions in the USSR in 1988 were about 79% of the US total. Considering that the Soviet GNP was only some 54% of that of the USA, this means that the Soviet Union generated 1.5 times more pollution than the USA per unit of GNP.

Their planners considered pollution control

unnecessary hindrance to economic development and industrialization

and

By the 1990s, 40% of Russia's territory began demonstrating symptoms of significant ecological stress, largely due to a diverse number of environmental issues, including deforestation, energy irresponsibility, pollution, and nuclear waste.

And this generously glosses over the extent of water contamination, hazardous dumping of toxic & nuclear waste into oceans, etc.

Humans are the problem, and the planet is better off without them.

YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 293d

Woody Allen, as flawed as he is, had a good quip about enjoying whatever brings you pleasure without feeling guilty.

The world isn't going to get better. Evolution created a system where those bereft of morals make the rules. It's literally in our nature to lie cheat and steal. Current humans are a statistical anomaly, aside from the tastier class.

altphoto@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 293d (2 replies)

Covid 2.0 could definitely do us all in.

altphoto@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 293d

Because lard ass orange pile of shit is not preparing the world for a new pandemic and instead is destroying green energy and allowing AI to waste and pollute the environment.

Az_1@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 293d
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plyth@feddit.org · 5 pts · 293d (2 replies)

Why should Capitalism collapse? The rich already own almost everything. Some will go broke but the system can continue forever. If nature collapses and food becomes scarce, it will just become more expensive.

PrimeMinisterKeyes@leminal.space · 4 pts · 293d (1 reply)

Look at election results all over the world. Capitalism is already collapsing... into fascism.
If history is any indication, this means being not productive enough might not only get you fired, but also imprisoned or disappeared. Gotta kickstart a whole trillionaire class soon.

Az_1@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 293d
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IhaveCrabs111@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 294d
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Rhyfel@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 294d

Why wait? Fucking help it collapse

umbrella@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 293d
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Eyekaytee@aussie.zone · 3 pts · 294d (4 replies)

i think you’re going to be waiting a while?

the last countries that were communist have turned capitalist or at least mixed market

have any countries actually become communist in the last 50 years?

random_character_a@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 294d (2 replies)

Capitalism turning shit does not mean instant communism. Bit too US mindset.

Az_1@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 293d (1 reply)
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random_character_a@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 293d

Partly agree. Capitalism has some self-balancing elements that makes it so functional that communist systems totally ignored and fell in a black hole of inefficiency. Problem is by it's nature capitalism generates inequality. Everything falls almost magically on the same graph. Distribution of wealth will always remain the same. If you throw more wealth in the system, the graph will just grow bigger but retain it's shape. There will still be a mass of piss poor people and small elite that controls most of the wealth. Things like tickle down is a gruel joke.

If there will ever be system of equality it has to be well designed and tightly controlled, monitored and swift to react, without any chaotic elements.

...and then there is the greed and corruption you mentioned.

marcos@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 294d

You mean those fascist neo-feudal states that existed mostly in North Asia?

Communist countries are something that can't exist on the real world.

random_character_a@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 294d (2 replies)

Before it goes it will be proceeded be decades of massive corruption, general enshittification of everything, corporate rule and oppression.

When you are running away from corporate sentry drones, because you were outsite after curfew in hunger games type society, it's better time to start waiting.

Dragonstaff@leminal.space · 2 pts · 294d

We've already had decades of massive corruption and general enshittification. Nothing stopping us from making things better.

Formfiller@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 294d

So more of the same then

Jankatarch@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 293d

You speak as if you are dissatisfied with having a system that fucking implodes by concepts of "automation" and "technology" in the "automation and technology" era.

AreaKode@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 294d

If history tells us anything...

Aneb@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 293d

Capitalism will burn itself out but that literally comes with the burn out of humanity. The only way to reverse capitalism is to revolt and impose our own socialist agenda. I know its not what you want to hear but its the only solution to not ending our lives in horrible desperation. Our new policies for climate change will ensure mitigation of greenhouse gasses but the button has been pressed on our future and we will see climate disasters and a global warming that we will need to endure. Endurance and ensurance are the only outcomes possible with the impotence our society is achieving. We are so stuck in this capitalist hellscape and incapable of fighting the systems that rob resources and leeches on the world. We only have this planet and we are sucking it dry quite literally.

mavu@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 293d

Waiting is usually not the best option. like, you can wait until the trash goes away on it's own, but it might take longer than you expect, with consequences you might not.

Just saying..

fakir@piefed.social · 1 pts · 293d

I'm a time traveler, I came back from the future just to tell you guys that we will naturally evolve from capitalism to democratic socialism, aka market socialism. It's still capitalism, but better. You still have free markets, but cooperatives will beat corporations on account of simply being more competitive - you see, in a level playing field, cooperatives don't need to squeeze their customers, employees, & vendors to maintain a profit margin for their investors, unlike every investor led corporation in the world. You can even ask the incoming mayor of New York about it. Wait a minute, is he a time traveler too?

vivalapivo@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 293d

Let climate change solve itself, woah

WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 293d

Seems robo-factories in China are going to take over the world. Hope they have some mercy, because no one can compete with China now.