Star Trek: Discovery S3E12 "There Is A Tide..."
I haven't actually watched the new show or anything (no untagged spoilers in this thread, please), but this is the general vibe that I get from reading comments from people who have.
TFW watching Starfleet Academy
104 Comments
TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 30 pts · 201d
I think people who like Disco will like Starfleet Academy.
The premier had some neat parts, but I think the structure, pacing and writing of the show have moved away from something I easily recognize as Star Trek and at the end, I was left more confused than interested in more.
Shadow@lemmy.ca · 14 pts · 201d
I hated disco, academy is surprisingly ok so far.
trolololol@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 200d
Thx for sharing, I was considering never watching because I can barely watch discovery, and right now I am not subscribed to Paramount.
I guess I'll try a trailer or something torrented.
TheOneAndOnly@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 201d
It took me far longer than I want to admit to understand you meant Discovery, and weren't making a snarky comparison between those that like this show and those that enjoy Disco music.
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 6 pts · 201d
Yeah, I think I'll skip it tbh. Discovery was a chore to watch.
aeiou@piefed.social · 5 pts · 201d
I liked disco for the most part but so far the only parts of Academy I liked were Giamatti's villan and the return of the Doctor.
The rest was just sort of a resounding 'meh'; the plot didn't hold me, the space-high-school melodrama between the cadets was boring and at times cringeworthy, and the big action sequence left me with more questions than answers.
data1701d@startrek.website · 4 pts · 201d
I kind of disliked Giamatti’s character, honestly; just a bargain bin Harry Mudd.
Otherwised enjoyed it.
TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 6 pts · 200d
Paul Giamatti seemed to be in a different show than the rest of the cast. It was like Giamatti was playing a cartoon Joker. It really clanged with me, his jokes and humor didn't work at all and I hope we don't see him again.
data1701d@startrek.website · 1 pts · 200d
I think part of it too is 32nd century Trek has already done a lot of sociopathic, who’s-gonna-stop-me, “because I’m evil”-type villains, and we need someone a little more gray, or at least psychologically compelling; as seen with Gul Dukat and Kai Winn, you can still pull off interesting but pure evil characters.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 200d
How big of a truck of money did they back up to his door for this?
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 21 pts · 201d
I’m very happy with Academy so far, but I’m upvoting due the quality meme.
caseyweederman@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 200d
Same. I have no idea what people are complaining about, or even that they were complaining at all.
MadMadBunny@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 198d
They just have to complain, even if they have nothing to complain about.
minorkeys@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 201d
It's a high school drama in a Starfleet academy. It barely counts as SciFi and every scene is melodrama. There are two star Trek princesses and a street rat main male character whose an idiot but somehow also a genius and of course, extremely hot, and is immediately in a love triangle with princesses. Every position of authority at the academy is held by a woman and the head of the academy spends part every scene showing you how cool and non-conventional she is by being completely unprofessional. This show is a startrek soap opera.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 13 pts · 201d
Ew! Star Trek gots GIRLS in it? Gross!!
chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 201d
There are even gaaaaays!!!! Oh noes!!!
minorkeys@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 201d
It's simply notable that it was a choice by the writers to do so and is very rare if never before seen in any military or naval organization.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 200d
No, you were listing things you didn’t like about the show. Stand by it.
Anyway, you’re wrong. The EMH is in a position of authority at the academy, and Admiral Vance is in a position of authority over the academy. There’s also a man in charge of the war college. So what’s supposed to be unprecedented here? Just women existing in a military?
minorkeys@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 200d
I also don't like it, but wouldn't bring it up if it made sense. The war college isn't the focus of the show, I'm sure male characters are in positions of authority elsewhere in the federation, those also are not in the show. Admiral Vance is the exception, yes, but not running the academy, just there to smile at the captain's quirky behavior.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 200d
What if I were to tell you that Ake is just there to dole out tough love to Caleb? He's the show's protagonist. Others may have their arcs, but they'll ultimately bend around his story.
But Vance is the one who gave Aka the job, and ran the negotiations in the second episode. He's had a more prominent and varied role than any of the women under Ake's command so far. And you're still ignoring the EMH, Ake's CMO and our heavily advertised legacy character. You're not being very honest in your arguments so far.
And you're saying it doesn't make sense for a woman to be in charge of something? Even if there's a prominently featured man both above and below her in the chain of command? And men at the same relative level in other divisions? Do you just not accept Star Trek's premise of an egalitarian future? I'm not seeing how my initial characterization of you was wrong.
minorkeys@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 199d
The doctor is a character joke and Vance is the exception that proves the rule. Current Star Trek is not an egalitarian future, it's a philosophical mess. I'm saying it's doesn't take sense to over represent women in leadership of a naval academy.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 199d
They aren't over-represented, you're gerrymandering - purposefully drawing lines so that women fall inside your tally, and men don't. If we simply do an objective headcount of the recurring Starfleet officers in the show so far, I get 4 women and 3 men. As even a count as you can get without cutting someone in two, or adding a redundant character.
And The Doctor is a goddamn treasure.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 200d
Hey, remember when Star Trek used to be mixed?
teolan@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 200d
The protagonist is a dude...
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 200d
The Next Generation’s cast was less mixed than Starfleet Academy’s. You just didn’t notice because it was weighted more towards man than women.
hakunawazo@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 201d
Thank you, totally agree.
The school drama between the cadet-guys was so forced and the officers acted irresponsible, sometimes even incompetent.
It also felt more like a mix of Hogwarts in space and Xavier's school for gifted youngsters.
Why can't they start their training on earth instead of flying through open space with a minimal crew and lots of kids without any qualification and without any permission on the ship?
SAM is the photonic version of season 1 Disco Tilly.
Lura Thok (number one) reminded me of Lt. Commander Bortus from Orville.
laranis@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 201d
This thread is convincing me to give it a try. I can't stand any show whose entire plot revolves around "adults are idiots and do stupid illogical unrealistic shit but the kids are smart and insightful and smarter than everyone."
"Series of Unfortunate Events" is obviously that to the point it is really satire, and thar's cool enough. But then you've got Harry Potter. Holy shit it hurts. Wednesday was the same thing and turned me off in the second season. Don't even bring up Stranger Things. I give that one kinda a pass because it was meant to recapture the 80s nostalgia of things like The Goonies, which, to its credit at least didn't rely on incompetent adults to advance every story line.
This one got away from me...
SippyCup@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 201d
Could describe the first season of DS9 honestly.
minorkeys@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 201d
Hard disagree.
mannycalavera@feddit.uk · 8 pts · 201d
Rom does have a way with the ladies.... and Moogie.
ummthatguy@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 201d
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 200d
First season of DS9 was incredibly rough, but it got better.
Nothing NuTrek has come out with proves this will get better.
caseyweederman@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 200d
What? Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks are fantastic. I honestly cannot even guess what you could have to complain about.
Well, I could guess, but I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 199d
Strange New Worlds? You mean lame love triangles? Character assassinations? Outright plagerism?
Lower Decks? As in I have to lower my brain capacity to appreciate its humour? Literally "memberberries, the animated series"?
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · -4 pts · 200d
The future is run by pudgy lesbians, we could all see that coming.
negativenull@piefed.world · 16 pts · 201d
I watched the first episode (it's on Youtube). After reading a the shit talked about it online already, I wasn't sure what to expect. I honestly enjoyed it. It is not TNG/DS9/Voyager/etc, but it was well done. The actors, the characters, all have potential. It is no longer tethered to any other show/ship/character, so they have the freedom to do something new. I am encouraged.
daannii@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 201d
I don't like that the premise is the same as micheal from discover.
Gets in trouble. Gets a chance at proving themselves after solving a problem that no one else could.
They really should have come up with something else.
But it's fine.
I was kind of getting a "Harry Potter but scifi" vibe from the second episode.
Shenanigans followed by magic fix (slime). And the little magic holograms that pop up conveniently.
Oh and student teacher rivalry.
Yeah definitely a Hogwarts vibe. Or The magicians. But scifi.
I thought in the first episode the acting was a little rough but hey, watch the first season of tng, it's rough too.
I'm still open to seeing more.
I'm not one of those trekies who hate anything that isn't tos or TNG.
I like all of it except enterprise. And that's mostly cause I really don't like the captain. And I don't know why but I don't. And I can't get over it.
I even mostly liked Picard. Especially the 1st season. Kinda downhill after that.
There's plenty to critique in every series. Plenty of inconsistencies.
But I still enjoy the world building and stories.
docandersonn@literature.cafe · 14 pts · 201d
My biggest complaint is all of the stairs. Why are there so many stairs?
ummthatguy@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 201d
Does seem rather ableist.
daannii@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 201d
As someone who has attended a few colleges and universities- there are stairs flipping everywhere. Even outside.
Like they couldn't level the campus grounds , no ? Stairs.
Stairs into buildings. Stairs inside the buildings. Stairs in the parking garages. Stairs outside on the grounds by any buildings.
Stairs stairs and more stairs.
I swear it was intended to wear out the students to keep them from having too much energy on their hands. Or maybe intended to keep students in shape. Idk.
I can only assume the show creators visited universities (especially older campuses) and tried to be authentic.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 200d
Uh....maybe it's because tens of thousands of students have to move between classes?
Taleya@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 200d
I went to a uni that used to be a gd WWII munitions factory and there weren't that many stairs
data1701d@startrek.website · 2 pts · 201d
But maybe they’re magic sci-fi stairs…
ummthatguy@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 201d
Like, not just an escalator, but a levitation ramp or some such? Could be fun.
data1701d@startrek.website · 4 pts · 201d
It would use fields or something to do different things for different people; an escalator for some, a wheelchair life for others, normal stairs for those who choose, but for Miles O’Brien’s transporter clone stuck in the 32nd century, it sets the gravity to 10x and forces him to crawl with all his might to the stairs’ control panel. This happens once a week.
ummthatguy@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 201d
I've been holding out hope that during his tenure at the Academy (into the 25th century), that he'd made headmaster and get trapped/forced into a golum or photonic body. The suffering possibilities are endless.
data1701d@startrek.website · 3 pts · 201d
His consciousness is uploaded after death into a torture simulation by a curious computer with emerging sentience for several hundred years a la I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream; when the computer finally learns its lesson and builds a new body for O’Brien’s backup consciousness, he just gets right back to work, centuries of technological progress be darned.
ummthatguy@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 201d
The series practically writes itself.
SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 200d
They also have elevators
FrChazzz@lemmus.org · 2 pts · 200d
And ubiquitous site to site transporting
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 200d
Why does a starship look like a casino in Reno?
data1701d@startrek.website · 1 pts · 200d
Why does the Enterprise D bridge look like the interior of a 1990s car stretched out?
And being a former Vegas resident, DS9 accurately pictures being in one of the more run-down Vegas casinos.
Also, honestly, I think modern campus architecture has embraced this “casino look” you describe, weirdly enough.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 201d
It's because how dare they risk that good boy to cordry rocks and the other dangers of space?
fox2263@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 201d
I feel there was a targeted campaign against this show before it even came out. So many videos appearing in my algorithm saying how bad it was and how it’s doomed and how it’s failed etc.
I’ve already found it better than Discovery. And it’s not as bad as I was expecting. It’s still fast paced and wish it would slow down a little, and if the camera could stay still for more than 1 second that would be great.
But besides that, is decent.
limelight79@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 201d
There's a targeted campaign against every new Trek series.
T156@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 201d
From the very beginning. People back in the day were complaining that not only was this Patrick Stewart some poncy theatre bloke instead of someone with real television experience, but he was bald, for goodness sakes.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 200d
Except that they were correct at being skeptical, and season 1 TNG was crap. Huge improvement came already in season 2, and people started liking it.
How many series has NuTrek had? How many total seasons? Yeah, it's still complete garbage to this day.
T156@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 200d
Though it wasn't bad because Patrick Stewart was a theatre actor, nor because he was bald. The issues tended to be more with Roddenberry's rules against having interpersonal conflict amongst the crew, or scripts that weren't very good/not written with the TNG crew in mind.
That is a matter of personal opinion, though. People clearly like it enough that we got multiple shows in the current run, rather than it being put away and forgotten about.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 200d
No, it's a matter of standards.
limelight79@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 200d
LOL I didn't mention NuTrek. Enterprise, for example, had a LOT of people screaming about how bad it was. It's when I gave up on the Trek fandom - I was tired of the negativity. Like this.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 200d
Enterprise wasn't good. That's where a lot of problems started. However, in comparison to NuTrek, it's significantly better still.
data1701d@startrek.website · 1 pts · 200d
Really? I think the show’s so gosh darn horny in that disgusting Rick Berman way all the time that I’d take almost anything over it.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 199d
Right, so seeing Klingorc boobs and cringe sibling sex is so much better. Or maybe you're just distracted by all the CGI glitter forcing any semblance of story to take a backseat.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 201d
Those videos really exploded in my feed about a week before it came out, and none of them has seen it yet. I don’t know if it’s coordinated or if it’s just the inevitable response of the algorithm rewarding topical hate mongering, but it’s a painfully obvious grift either way.
fox2263@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 201d
Yeah I went to watch one as its title and thumb seemed definitive like they had watched the previews or something. Started watching and it was clear they had not seen anything besides stills.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 200d
People having standards = grifting. Right.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 200d
People with standards wait to see a show before they judge it.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 199d
Hey, you know science is all about prediction, right? Once a pattern emerges you can create a model for what to expect. Since the showrunners haven't changed expecting something different each time would be... The definition of insanity. And there is plenty to pick up from trailers and preview clips that it's going to be the exact same garbage we'll always expect from these same showrunners.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 199d
How about applied science? You've deduced you wont like a show, now what do you do with that fact? If you maybe spend three or four minutes letting everyone know you wont be fucking with this show and then move on to other things, I totally respect you.
But if you put out multiple forty minute videos of you pouring over every frame of each two minute trailer so you can froth at the mouth about someone wearing glasses or a Jem’Hadar having tits, you're just eating up bandwidth that could be spent on something meaningful.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 199d
Just like I don't have to spend time watching NuTrek, you don't have to spend time watching any videos breaking down all its problems.
usernamefactory@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 199d
Deal - and we can both make the occasional post on lemmy about how shitty our respective objects of ridicule are. I wouldn't have it any other way.
caseyweederman@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 200d
It's fun and the chancellor is sweary Miss Frizzle with Elastigirl's voice.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 200d
STD isn't exactly a high bar. I've seen terrible series that were better than STD, so essentially what you're telling me, this is still a terrible series.
ABetterTomorrow@sh.itjust.works · 13 pts · 200d
I just don’t trust the new owners of paramount.
FlatFootFox@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 200d
It’s been pretty enjoyable so far. Caleb, Jay-Den, Sam, and Genesis all have good chemistry as a main cast. Not every show needs to be TNG: Season 8. There’s some nits one could pick, but I’m looking forward to see where it goes once it’s out of character introduction and exposition mode.
qualia@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 200d
My faves so far are the photonics (Sam and the Doctor) and Number One (half jem-hadar/half klingon). I don't understand the hate. They even brought back the old Klingon design!
RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 200d
Agreed. But it also has Holly Hunter as Barefoot Casual Spacemom.
So I'm probably going to watch it.
anakin78z@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 200d
I like it 🤷.
The characters are pretty likeable. There is some intentional silliness, and I'm totally OK with that.
RabbitBBQ@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 201d
Star Trek needs some time off. I enjoyed these two episodes but after the Section 31 "movie", and the quality of it all the past few years... It just needs to go away and find a new creative team.
Taleya@aussie.zone · 6 pts · 200d
Yeah but so was VOY. It got there .
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 200d
I'm not giving NuTrek any more chances. They already tried with 5 series and 1 movie. It's never going to "get there".
Taleya@aussie.zone · 19 pts · 200d
You say that in the presence of Lower Decks?? you peasant
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -9 pts · 200d
I don't like Lower Decks one bit. Cheap low brow humour and it still gets plenty wrong about Star Trek, just for the sake of a gag or the creation of drama.
The closest we got to something aligning properly with Star Trek is Prodigy, of all things.
jj4211@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 200d
I'll agree to disagree, but surprised as I thought strange new worlds was pretty consistent with a traditional Star Trek...
Taleya@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 200d
Nah. S1 of snw was pretty tight. Then they started just being fucking idiots with it and it's lost more and more wheels. The last season was garbage.
data1701d@startrek.website · 1 pts · 200d
You only watched season 1 of LD didn’t you?
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 199d
data1701d@startrek.website · 1 pts · 199d
I will admit Lower Deck is always a bit crass and that element never goes away, but the characters develop really well and it’s impressive how attached they get you to them in a total runtime shorter than TNG season 1, and the show gets surprisingly emotionally sincere as it goes on.
And I’d say seasons 3, 4, and maybe 5 have what I’d call legitimate contenders for some of the franchise’s best episodes. Honestly, if it’s really hard for you to watch season 2, just skip to Wej Duj and watch from there.
But honestly, if you can’t get past the crasser elements, I get that.
phoenixz@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 200d
I don't watch star trek anymore. Havent watched SNW, haven't watched this either, and won't ever.
I hope one day I can go back and watch TNG or DS9 again without feeling the cringe from ST Picard.
I watched 5 episodes of STD and dumped it, it was awful CGI slop. I regretfully watched the nu trek movies and they're literally much worse remakes of earlier star Trek movies.
Then came ST: Picard, which has managed to ruin even TNG for me for a long, long time. I knew it would be terrible but everyone and their mother was repeating the aggressive marketing campaign that it would be absolutely awesome and ooooohhh god it was bad. They fucking ruined Q... That pissed me off.
Want to watch the true successor to star trek, in heart and mind? Wat h the Orville. Seasons 1 &2 are awesome, 3 kinda went into the same shit direction like star trek with longer episodes, weaker stories and much, MUCH more CGI to make up for it and hope we wouldn't notice. Season 3 is still not AS bad as nu trek, but it's close. 1&2, though, best trek since DS9, they even have their TBOBW moment!
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 200d
Needs more body positive female characters and badasses with a heart of gold.
They released the first episode on YouTube and no one watched it, the comment section is hilarious and spot on. Paramount but a red shirt on and killed Star Trek, it's dead Jim.
caseyweederman@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 200d
Interesting. Could you expand on why you feel that body positivity, specifically female body positivity, is bad? I'd like to test a theory.
quediuspayu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 201d
Yesterday I watched a few minutes of the first episode. I was very confused, I guess I missed a few shows.
Is this show centred around a single character again?
TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 13 pts · 201d
No, it seems like it will follow a gaggle of students, but the premier starts with setting up the dark backstory of one of them in an over the top way and it takes forever. Eventually they get to Starfleet Academy.
::: Spoilers for the first 15 minutes: I found the setup for this baffling. The 3 minute military tribunal that determined that Caleb Mir should be ripped away from his mother felt very unlike anything I've come to expect from the Federation. Then it's tonal whiplash with the person who took a child away from their mother trying to play surrogate mom and get the kid to go to school? :::
No worries if you found it confusing. Every few seconds there's a baffling decision displayed, so it kinda short circuits the brain and makes it hard to pay attention.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 201d
I shut it off the first time I tried to watch it. Seems like the first half of the premier could have been a flashback in season 2.
data1701d@startrek.website · 2 pts · 200d
I agree with my sister that it should have been a flashback later in the season; they didn’t need to tell us so directly in the first episode.
Then again, DS9 did the intro text thing explaining Wolf 359, so…
BrilliantantTurd4361@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 199d
When she was curled up in the captains chair lookin cozy af i knew it was gonna be a good time.
peteypete420@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 200d
Havent really watched it, but I it had on in the background while doing some chores this weekend. (Its in rotation on the pluto Trek channel) Seemed alright, if maybe taking itself a little to seriously.
That being said one woman on the show had a voice that I swore was some pre pubescent alien character, when I walked by and saw it was an old woman I started laughing. So that was enjoyable.
EtAl@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 200d
I gave NuTrek all the chances in the world. But I gave up on it when SNW had a holodeck episode and a bog standard one at that. I'm done.
phoenixz@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 200d
Ahhh FFS. That sort of crap is too why I stopped watching star trek, completely. Star Trek used to be made by people who loved the show, now it's a cash cow being milked to death and they hope with adding know actors and loads of CGI that we won't notice. Hell, when the producers said they don't really care much about Star Trek, that should have set off some alarm bells but nope, all good.
I watched 5 episodes of STD and dumped it, it was awful CGI slop. I regretfully watched the nu trek movies and they're literally much worse remakes of earlier star Trek movies.
Then came ST: Picard, which has managed to ruin even TNG for me for a long, long time. I knew it would be terrible but everyone and their mother was repeating the aggressive marketing campaign that it would be absolutely awesome and ooooohhh god it was bad. They fucking ruined Q... That pissed me off.
Want to watch the true successor to star trek, in heart and mind? Wat h the Orville. Seasons 1 &2 are awesome, 3 kinda went into the same shit direction like star trek with longer episodes, weaker stories and much, MUCH more CGI to make up for it and hope we wouldn't notice. Season 3 is still not AS bad as nu trek, but it's close. 1&2, though, best trek since DS9, they even have their TBOBW moment!
FlatFootFox@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 200d
I’m sorry you fell off the series. Everyone’s got their own tastes. Ironically enough Strange New World’s holodeck episode was a huge love letter and homage to classic Star Trek.
oyenyaaow@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 200d
The last episode of SNW left a bitter taste. not the writing or the cast - the scenes background of either generated images or something shot without even looking at a script - 'mooks lingering around' probably. there was no synergy at all between plot and whatever was behind them.
i was expecting to rewatch the entire season after that; now it soured me for new star trek.
Digit@lemmy.wtf · 1 pts · 199d
shiny shit
Tattorack@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 200d
Like a fresh turd covered in glitter.