I’m still mad at nabisco for adding soy to the Oreo recipe. And Nilla wafers.
They were my only safe cookies I didn’t have to bake myself and weren’t exorbitantly priced like “organic” brands. Now I have to pay like $8+ for a tiny pack of off brand “sandwich cookies” 😭
Sadly, Oreos appear to no longer be vegan - at least in right now, in Germany. For foods like cookies, instant noodles, and similar foods that are usually made in huge factories with a lot of other products, you'd see a note telling that the product may contain traces of xyz. A couple years back, you'd see that note on a pack of Oreos, ie. "may contain traces of milk" and possibly some nuts or something. These days, it says "may contain milk" which is an important distinction to make. Apparently, the factory gives themselves the leeway to substitute parts of the vegan ingredients with non-vegan ones if it's more financially viable to them. The usual formula might be vegan, but you'd have no way of knowing if this particular batch happens to not have any non-vegan ingredients in them
That being said, I, too, started avoiding Burger King, when their allergy information sheet contained all three versions of this disclaimer. ("May contain", "May contain traces of" and "May be cross contained with")
The usual formula might be vegan, but you'd have no way of knowing if this particular batch happens to not have any non-vegan ingredients in them
[X] Doubt
You're basically saying it's ok to lie about the ingredients if it's financially cheaper than using the ingredients listed, which sounds like weapons grade horseshit.
Ediacarium left out an important word from the article they cited: “All purposefully added ingredients have to be listed under ‘ingredients’”. This does not include accidental cross-contamination.
The reason why produces seem to be moving away from the phrase ‘traces of’ is because it might lead the consumer to get a wrong picture of how much contamination happened. From the article:
“‘May contain traces of…’ can give the impression that allergens are contained inadvertently and only in small amounts, but that may not be the case for chunky contaminants like nuts.”
It's just charcoal filtering (which is a process used in many, many food and drink processes), but one source of industrial quantities of charcoal comes from charred bones (after the proteins are extracted making soup or whatever).
In both EU countries I lived, the cheapest cookies used to be cream-(or rather creme-)filled sandwich cookies. They were completely vegan and cheaper than most bread. There was nothing bad in them at all (excluding palm fat I guess).
There's always a few products like that to be found on the bottom shelves - the cheapest and miraculously also one of the best.
That doesn't make sense. Sugar is cooked to separate the molasses from the sucrose and the resulting clear sugar is what appears white. Bone meal would cause weird crystals nucleation around the powdered bone and sugar crystals would look uneven, like a chalky Sugar In The Raw large grain.
I would love to learn more about how white sugar keeps a uniform shape after bone meal processing. Food science is fascinating. Have a link?
Usually when people talk about sugar they mean beet sugar, your link is about cane sugar.... Who even needs to whiten cane sugar? It's always been yellowish
In Europe we use mostly sugar beets as base for sugar production. As far as I'm aware it's processing is vegan. So it depends where they produce it and source their ingredients.
While I don't know about Oreos, ingredients also vary by region. A number of products have different ingredient lists depending on if you buy them in Canada or the US. So something that iscould be considered vegan/vegetarian in one region, is notdoes not meet the requirements in the other region.
To clarify, ingredients are different on each side of the border. So the same product has vegan ingredients on one side, and non-vegan ingredients on the other
No they said the ingredients might change. And if there is suddenly an ingredient added or changed to one that is not vegan, the whole product is not vegan anymore.
But that does not mean the definition or vegan is changing?
Also exploring ultra-processed food, which I think is against the spirit of veganism. The few vegans I know make everything themselves from stuff that's one step away from being pulled from the ground or a plant.
The spirit of veganism is excluding consumption of things that result in animal cruelty, exploitation, or death. There is no requirement to avoid ultra-processed foods
Not necessarily, palm oil itself can be vegan since it is plant derived, but the practices to extract it most often are not vegan. There are many things that aren't vegan that many people wouldn't think of unless they're really questioning the production of what they consume. Another good example is that a lot of beers are made with animal byproducts as part of the processing such as fining agents. If you just look at the label you wouldn't know it's not vegan unless you know to ask the manufacturer about their process. The same would apply to palm oil since some is supposedly sourced ethically and sustainably. Personally i avoid it because i think a lot of places green wash their process and it is easier to just avoid it than to verify if the palm oil was really ethically/sustainably sourced or not.
There's many more examples of "gotchas" like this that new vegans with good intentions may not know about. It's a learning curve. When i was early on in my journey there was a lot of things i didn't really understand but i just do my best and continually learn.
Sure, and many vegans do end up eating less ultra processed foods. But my point is that eating healthier isn't what being vegan is about. Vegan isn't a diet like many people think. It's a way of life to reduce and eliminate harm to animals
I was a junk food Vegan for several years and only switched to a cleaner and less processed (but still vegan) diet this year after I saw my (nonvegan) parents suffering from life-threatening food-related diseases.
66 Comments
Broadfern@lemmy.world · 42 pts · 228d
I’m still mad at nabisco for adding soy to the Oreo recipe. And Nilla wafers.
They were my only safe cookies I didn’t have to bake myself and weren’t exorbitantly priced like “organic” brands. Now I have to pay like $8+ for a tiny pack of off brand “sandwich cookies” 😭
DanVctr@sh.itjust.works · 14 pts · 228d
What's the issue with soy? Just an allergy?
Broadfern@lemmy.world · 45 pts · 228d
Yes, I have a soy allergy lol.
I think it’s in the top 7-8 common food allergies in the US, at least.
CallMeAnAI@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 228d
.3% of the general population.
SharkWeek@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 23 pts · 228d
ikon106@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 227d
I think they meant as opposed to a larger ethical issue that affects everyone, but I agree it was a little too nonchalant.
SharkWeek@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 227d
sem@piefed.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 227d
Why? Don't they usually develop young?
SharkWeek@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 227d
sem@piefed.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 227d
Wow, I'm sorry that happened! Today I learned...
Passerby6497@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 228d
There's no "just" about allergies, unfortunately.
One of my partners has FND and allergies/sensitivities to some super common shit that gives them seizure like symptoms.
You have no idea how hard it is to work around a combined yeast/coconut/vinegar restriction....
ikon106@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 227d
I think they meant as opposed to a larger ethical issue that affects everyone, but I agree it was a little too nonchalant.
MML@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 227d
Technically Oreo is the off brand
sem@piefed.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 227d
It started off that way, but now it is very much on brand.
umbra@slrpnk.net · 25 pts · 228d
Two things can make Oreos not vegan:
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 228d
It's called "creme" because there's no cream involved, and regular chocolate is inherently vegan.
v4ld1z@lemmy.zip · 19 pts · 228d
Sadly, Oreos appear to no longer be vegan - at least in right now, in Germany. For foods like cookies, instant noodles, and similar foods that are usually made in huge factories with a lot of other products, you'd see a note telling that the product may contain traces of xyz. A couple years back, you'd see that note on a pack of Oreos, ie. "may contain traces of milk" and possibly some nuts or something. These days, it says "may contain milk" which is an important distinction to make. Apparently, the factory gives themselves the leeway to substitute parts of the vegan ingredients with non-vegan ones if it's more financially viable to them. The usual formula might be vegan, but you'd have no way of knowing if this particular batch happens to not have any non-vegan ingredients in them
Ediacarium@feddit.org · 25 pts · 228d
This isn't a legal loophole, the disclaimer is just unregulated and might not hold up in court. All ingredients have to be listed under ingredients, if they're contained:
https://www.lebensmittelklarheit.de/fragen-antworten/unterschied-kann-spuren-von-und-kann-xy-enthalten
That being said, I, too, started avoiding Burger King, when their allergy information sheet contained all three versions of this disclaimer. ("May contain", "May contain traces of" and "May be cross contained with")
Passerby6497@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 228d
[X] Doubt
You're basically saying it's ok to lie about the ingredients if it's financially cheaper than using the ingredients listed, which sounds like weapons grade horseshit.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 228d
You're saying, in Germany, that the ingredients list is a lie if the package contains an allergy warning?
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz · 5 pts · 228d
Ediacarium left out an important word from the article they cited: “All purposefully added ingredients have to be listed under ‘ingredients’”. This does not include accidental cross-contamination.
The reason why produces seem to be moving away from the phrase ‘traces of’ is because it might lead the consumer to get a wrong picture of how much contamination happened. From the article:
“‘May contain traces of…’ can give the impression that allergens are contained inadvertently and only in small amounts, but that may not be the case for chunky contaminants like nuts.”
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org · 6 pts · 228d
Never heard of that loophole before, got a source for me to read more?
pir8t0x@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 228d
Oh, really? They taste like chemicals though
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 7 pts · 228d
They are just a shit version of Bourbon biscuits.
BanMe@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 228d
The trans-fats used to cover the taste of chemicals, now that they're removed it's just naked.
Good reminder that preservatives and sugar are vegan I guess.
scutiger@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 227d
In the US, a lot of sugar is processed with bone char, which makes it non-vegan.
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org · 1 pts · 227d
What The fuck?
exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 227d
It's just charcoal filtering (which is a process used in many, many food and drink processes), but one source of industrial quantities of charcoal comes from charred bones (after the proteins are extracted making soup or whatever).
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org · 11 pts · 228d
To be a little pedantic: That's just plant-based...ism? Veganism isn't inherently about food (although that is a big part of it ofc :3 )
A_norny_mousse@feddit.org · 8 pts · 228d
In both EU countries I lived, the cheapest cookies used to be cream-(or rather creme-)filled sandwich cookies. They were completely vegan and cheaper than most bread. There was nothing bad in them at all (excluding palm fat I guess).
There's always a few products like that to be found on the bottom shelves - the cheapest and miraculously also one of the best.
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 228d
As long as you think sugar is okay?
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz · 9 pts · 228d
Yeah, why would anyone want their dessert to be sweet? For me a glass of water is enough because I’m better than everybody else.
A_norny_mousse@feddit.org · 6 pts · 228d
I'm not suggesting you eat those instead of bread.
nefurious_krankstar@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 228d
What did plants ever do to you?!?!
quoll@lemmy.sdf.org · 7 pts · 228d
oreos are shit biscuits.
nocturne@slrpnk.net · 4 pts · 228d
Fairly certain Oreos are made with non vegan sugar.
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 228d
I didn't know sugar could be non-vegan.
nocturne@slrpnk.net · 13 pts · 228d
White cane sugar is processed through
bonemealbone char to make it white.ChicoSuave@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 228d
That doesn't make sense. Sugar is cooked to separate the molasses from the sucrose and the resulting clear sugar is what appears white. Bone meal would cause weird crystals nucleation around the powdered bone and sugar crystals would look uneven, like a chalky Sugar In The Raw large grain.
I would love to learn more about how white sugar keeps a uniform shape after bone meal processing. Food science is fascinating. Have a link?
nocturne@slrpnk.net · 12 pts · 228d
Sorry, it is bone char that is used, not bone meal.
https://explainthat.org/is-white-sugar-vegan-the-truth-about-bone-char/
drzoidberg@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 228d
Twinsies, almost.
ChicoSuave@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 227d
Super cool. Didn't realize that sugar was basically cane sugar for AMPAC and beet sugar for Europe. Thanks!
Damage@feddit.it · 1 pts · 228d
Usually when people talk about sugar they mean beet sugar, your link is about cane sugar.... Who even needs to whiten cane sugar? It's always been yellowish
SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de · 4 pts · 228d
They whiten it to get... white sugar
In the Americas you basically only get cane sugar. The other way around in Europe, where it's basically all beet sugar
Damage@feddit.it · 1 pts · 228d
Interesting.
affenlehrer@feddit.org · 8 pts · 228d
BTW that's only for sugar from cane sugar. In Europe we mostly use sugar beets and the processing is a little different
drzoidberg@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 228d
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sugar-vegan-bone-char-yikes_n_6391496
affenlehrer@feddit.org · 11 pts · 228d
In Europe we use mostly sugar beets as base for sugar production. As far as I'm aware it's processing is vegan. So it depends where they produce it and source their ingredients.
three@lemmy.zip · -15 pts · 228d
Wrong, imperialists are non-vegan by default.
three@lemmy.zip · -1 pts · 228d
The sugar is harvested from exotic cat shit.
jaybone@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 228d
What makes the cat shit exotic?
I happen to have a bunch. Should I take it into Antiques Roadshow?
three@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 228d
It was a joke for people that know things ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_luwak
otter@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 228d
While I don't know about Oreos, ingredients also vary by region. A number of products have different ingredient lists depending on if you buy them in Canada or the US. So something that
iscould be considered vegan/vegetarian in one region,is notdoes not meet the requirements in the other region.SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 228d
I don't think the definition of "vegan" changes across borders
Edit: proof that a vegan diet causes the sense of humor to atrophy
otter@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 228d
To clarify, ingredients are different on each side of the border. So the same product has vegan ingredients on one side, and non-vegan ingredients on the other
I also edited my original comment to be clearer
tja@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 228d
And that is not what the otter said
jaybone@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 228d
That’s pretty much exactly what they said.
tja@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 228d
No they said the ingredients might change. And if there is suddenly an ingredient added or changed to one that is not vegan, the whole product is not vegan anymore.
But that does not mean the definition or vegan is changing?
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 228d
It's the sugar that makes them shit, even if you take exception to nothing else.
Jhuskindle@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 228d
Its also gluten free
Drusas@fedia.io · 2 pts · 223d
It never occurred to me that people think the white stuff in Oreos is cream.
Drusas@fedia.io · 0 pts · 223d
This is just wrong all around.
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 228d
Also exploring ultra-processed food, which I think is against the spirit of veganism. The few vegans I know make everything themselves from stuff that's one step away from being pulled from the ground or a plant.
umbra@slrpnk.net · 19 pts · 228d
The spirit of veganism is excluding consumption of things that result in animal cruelty, exploitation, or death. There is no requirement to avoid ultra-processed foods
https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
uienia@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 227d
So palm oil is definitely something that makes a product non-vegan, right?
umbra@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 227d
Not necessarily, palm oil itself can be vegan since it is plant derived, but the practices to extract it most often are not vegan. There are many things that aren't vegan that many people wouldn't think of unless they're really questioning the production of what they consume. Another good example is that a lot of beers are made with animal byproducts as part of the processing such as fining agents. If you just look at the label you wouldn't know it's not vegan unless you know to ask the manufacturer about their process. The same would apply to palm oil since some is supposedly sourced ethically and sustainably. Personally i avoid it because i think a lot of places green wash their process and it is easier to just avoid it than to verify if the palm oil was really ethically/sustainably sourced or not.
There's many more examples of "gotchas" like this that new vegans with good intentions may not know about. It's a learning curve. When i was early on in my journey there was a lot of things i didn't really understand but i just do my best and continually learn.
umbrella@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 227d
umbra@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 227d
Sure, and many vegans do end up eating less ultra processed foods. But my point is that eating healthier isn't what being vegan is about. Vegan isn't a diet like many people think. It's a way of life to reduce and eliminate harm to animals
aBundleOfFerrets@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 227d
No? Nothing forces food processing to be unethical.
umbrella@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 227d
adminofoz@lemmy.cafe · 5 pts · 228d
I was a junk food Vegan for several years and only switched to a cleaner and less processed (but still vegan) diet this year after I saw my (nonvegan) parents suffering from life-threatening food-related diseases.