"The biggest hurdle in the negotiations was likely whether the new means of payment should function exclusively online or also independently of an active internet connection."
How can this even be a question? As long as governments don't give me free internet access and the minimum of required hardware making it online only would be rediculous. Either it's a working system for all citizens not just those who can afford it or it's a conceptional stillbirth.
It is technically impossible to make it function without the internet. It's called the double spending problem and it can only be solved with some sort of global consensus state
They will probably use secure elements (a small, tamper-resistant chip in your phone) and limit transaction amounts when you're offline. As long as the other party has an internet connection, it will be impossible to double spend. There may also be a warning about an increased risk if you attempt an offline transaction. However, if there is no internet access and the fraudster is able to inevitably spoof/emulate/attack a secure element, the security mechanisms would fail and a double spend would be possible. This will be detected as soon as internet access is available again. As it requires a personal presence, the police should be reasonably capable of fighting such crime.
Poorly. The transactions clear when the plane lands, and this is a significant headache for airlines. More modern airlines have satellite internet onboard for this purpose, but it costs a lot to install on an airframe.
Source: worked in payments and asked an airline head pilot.
And the digital euro is not connected to a bank? The digital euro is supposed to be a souvereign EU way of paying independent from 3rd party providers, yet somehow they can't do what they can for 'technical reasons'? Where is the digital euro actually happeneing? In some magical cloud that is totally not just someone elses (...a banks ...) computer? Ffs... ages ago we sorted out the "double spending" problem to pay with just our signature, yet now it's technically impossible without a constant internet connection...
I'll celebrate when I finally can ditch VISA and Mastercard. I already don't use them anymore domestically thanks to Twint, but as soon as I cross the border they are currently my only option (even for getting cash).
Had to google Twint. It's a Swiss payment app, right?
If I got this right, the recent Wero should be its €-equivalent (edit: eurozone, not € per se).
The digital euro on the other hand - again, if I understand it correctly - is digital cash. So to pay with it, you'd have to have a specific digital pocket for it and then exchange Swiss franc for euro/digital euro.
Yup, it's our home grown payment app that is widely accepted, from your local butcher and farm store to Mediamarkt and all major grocery stores.
Most of us have Euro accounts too, so exchanging money to use the digital euro abroad is no real issue. I go shopping for groceries and personal hygiene products in Germany once or twice per week.
The EU are absolutely the bad guys if not kept on a short leash. I'm not very confident Chat Control would be stopped unless for the massive campaigning to educate them. They already want to weaken GDPR. Are we the US yet? No, but we all need to be very wary of the power creep. They are also looking into age-verification laws to protect the kids. Not all things EU are benevolent.
Completely agree. I'm hugely supportive of the EU, the things it has accomplished and the future potential. However, blindly agreeing with everything it does with black and white thinking is how we sleepwalk into our own authoritarian dystopia.
They are also looking into age-verification laws
They should! Call me old fashioned but kids really shouldn't be on Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, etc. It's just turning them into sociopaths manipulated by billionaires.
Sure, I do partially agree with that. But give parents better tools to monitor or restrict what their kids can access. Don't make every citizens online activity trackable. Just look at Texas what "nothing to hide" logic gets you; arrested for seeking abortion.
Oh, they are absolutely the bad guy we are looking for. Constantly working on undermining our privacy rights on behalf of lobbyists from US companies and organisations competing against those US companies now mostly in control of our data, is neither good nor pro EU souvereignity.
I have four accounts that support wero. For each, its baked into the banking app. Each is totally different. While one can even generate qr codes for payment, the other only supports phone numbers from my address book, cant even input a number.
Oh, and it leaks my Iban if I actually pay with it.
There even is an official wero app, but you cannot use it when your bank offers wero in theirs.
In my opinion the whole thing with wero being tied to your checking account is stupid. Most people have one. And dont want to give out the account data to their primary salary to everyone.
@oats "it leaks my Iban if I actually pay with it"
What did you expect? Simply put, wero is just a convenient way to make a SEPA Instant Credit Transfer. Of course, the bank details will appear in the transaction history afterward. 🤷
You mean inconvenient. At this point, it's a lot less hassle just to use sepa instant.
I want to send you money.
"Hey, does your bank support wero? Great. I need your phone number. No, my bank doesn't support sending to emails. OK, I saved it to my contacts, I can now open my bank app and send you your 5€."
vs
"5€? Sure. opens banking app what's your iban? OK, done"
It's illegal in EU. There is an ongoing complaint against Heise submitted to Data protection authority in North Rhine-Westphalia. Just because the responsible authority has been dragging out the decision for four years, doesn't make it legal.
You had an argument there... and then you mentioned state news. Ones that are just as eager to produce clickbait bullshit and constantly frame everything to either align with one political direction/party -totally coincidently of course- is well-connected with leading positions of those boradcaster or to make even the most rediculous crazy topics a valid opinion in a gigantic shit pile of false balancing. And so your argument sadly fell apart.
Yes, state news as they are right now, are indeed a waste of our tax euros and they don't even come close to doing the job they are supposed to do. They however manage to waste incredible amounts of money on entertainment that is not their job at all, while also only addressing a very narrow spectrum of viewers. That's impressive, but not actually good either...
Puh, the roadmap reads like a 5 year plan. I thought the digital euro was way closer to being introduced. Wasn't there news about it starting in early 2027 a few month back?
55 Comments
Ooops@feddit.org · 16 pts · 75d
How can this even be a question? As long as governments don't give me free internet access and the minimum of required hardware making it online only would be rediculous. Either it's a working system for all citizens not just those who can afford it or it's a conceptional stillbirth.
Mubelotix@jlai.lu · 5 pts · 74d
It is technically impossible to make it function without the internet. It's called the double spending problem and it can only be solved with some sort of global consensus state
Besen@feddit.org · 1 pts · 74d
They will probably use secure elements (a small, tamper-resistant chip in your phone) and limit transaction amounts when you're offline. As long as the other party has an internet connection, it will be impossible to double spend. There may also be a warning about an increased risk if you attempt an offline transaction. However, if there is no internet access and the fraudster is able to inevitably spoof/emulate/attack a secure element, the security mechanisms would fail and a double spend would be possible. This will be detected as soon as internet access is available again. As it requires a personal presence, the police should be reasonably capable of fighting such crime.
Mubelotix@jlai.lu · 2 pts · 74d
This is online not offline
Look if the tech is shitty enough to require installing facial recognition in every single store it will cause enormous amounts of problems
colourlessidea@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 74d
How do payments on planes work?
Mubelotix@jlai.lu · 2 pts · 74d
You can scam the company, but if you do they know who you are and come after you. Which is not compatible with privacy
wizzor@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 74d
Poorly. The transactions clear when the plane lands, and this is a significant headache for airlines. More modern airlines have satellite internet onboard for this purpose, but it costs a lot to install on an airframe.
Source: worked in payments and asked an airline head pilot.
Ooops@feddit.org · 1 pts · 74d
How do banks work then? Transfers in cash? Or does that global consensus state in fact not rely on realtime communication?
Mubelotix@jlai.lu · 2 pts · 74d
Banks form a network. Information is easier to copy than raw materials. Optic fiber is fast you know
Ooops@feddit.org · 2 pts · 74d
And the digital euro is not connected to a bank? The digital euro is supposed to be a souvereign EU way of paying independent from 3rd party providers, yet somehow they can't do what they can for 'technical reasons'? Where is the digital euro actually happeneing? In some magical cloud that is totally not just someone elses (...a banks ...) computer? Ffs... ages ago we sorted out the "double spending" problem to pay with just our signature, yet now it's technically impossible without a constant internet connection...
leagman1@feddit.org · 13 pts · 75d
Looking forward to the digital euro
comrade_twisty@feddit.org · 20 pts · 75d
I'll celebrate when I finally can ditch VISA and Mastercard. I already don't use them anymore domestically thanks to Twint, but as soon as I cross the border they are currently my only option (even for getting cash).
leagman1@feddit.org · 11 pts · 75d
Had to google Twint. It's a Swiss payment app, right?
If I got this right, the recent Wero should be its €-equivalent (edit: eurozone, not € per se).
The digital euro on the other hand - again, if I understand it correctly - is digital cash. So to pay with it, you'd have to have a specific digital pocket for it and then exchange Swiss franc for euro/digital euro.
comrade_twisty@feddit.org · 7 pts · 75d
Yup, it's our home grown payment app that is widely accepted, from your local butcher and farm store to Mediamarkt and all major grocery stores.
Most of us have Euro accounts too, so exchanging money to use the digital euro abroad is no real issue. I go shopping for groceries and personal hygiene products in Germany once or twice per week.
FlowerFan@piefed.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 75d
Found the Basler
comrade_twisty@feddit.org · 2 pts · 75d
Wow no, just no!
I am nowhere near that ugly town.
iammike@programming.dev · 14 pts · 75d
I'm afraid this is just an excuse for mass surveillance. At least, getting rid of American services is definitely a win.
john_t@piefed.ee · 13 pts · 75d
The EU is not the bad guy you are looking for. You are already being mass surveilled by Visa and Mastercard.
HereIAm@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 75d
The EU are absolutely the bad guys if not kept on a short leash. I'm not very confident Chat Control would be stopped unless for the massive campaigning to educate them. They already want to weaken GDPR. Are we the US yet? No, but we all need to be very wary of the power creep. They are also looking into age-verification laws to protect the kids. Not all things EU are benevolent.
Barbarian@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 75d
Completely agree. I'm hugely supportive of the EU, the things it has accomplished and the future potential. However, blindly agreeing with everything it does with black and white thinking is how we sleepwalk into our own authoritarian dystopia.
john_t@piefed.ee · 0 pts · 74d
HereIAm@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 74d
Sure, I do partially agree with that. But give parents better tools to monitor or restrict what their kids can access. Don't make every citizens online activity trackable. Just look at Texas what "nothing to hide" logic gets you; arrested for seeking abortion.
dieTasse@feddit.org · 3 pts · 75d
They are not... Today... I bet Americans said the same years ago.
Ooops@feddit.org · 2 pts · 75d
Oh, they are absolutely the bad guy we are looking for. Constantly working on undermining our privacy rights on behalf of lobbyists from US companies and organisations competing against those US companies now mostly in control of our data, is neither good nor pro EU souvereignity.
leagman1@feddit.org · 1 pts · 75d
Same. But if we somehow manage to make it not go to shit, it'd be just very strong and convenient imo. That's a big if ofc.
HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 75d
Well, the rollout is a bit sketchy but it looks like it could really work
oats@piefed.zip · 2 pts · 75d
Hopefully its not such a shit show like wero is now
leagman1@feddit.org · 1 pts · 74d
Is it a shitshow? Afaik it's "just" super lackluster, missing vital functionality
oats@piefed.zip · 4 pts · 74d
I have four accounts that support wero. For each, its baked into the banking app. Each is totally different. While one can even generate qr codes for payment, the other only supports phone numbers from my address book, cant even input a number.
Oh, and it leaks my Iban if I actually pay with it.
Scrollone@feddit.it · 2 pts · 74d
Yeah I think the biggest problem of Wero is that you need to use your bank app.
Bank apps are usually bloated and shitty, and each one works differently. Just give us a basic and standard Wero app.
oats@piefed.zip · 2 pts · 74d
There even is an official wero app, but you cannot use it when your bank offers wero in theirs.
In my opinion the whole thing with wero being tied to your checking account is stupid. Most people have one. And dont want to give out the account data to their primary salary to everyone.
calavera@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 71d
That's bad. In Portugal we have a "local wero" and you can choose to use the standalone app(which is much faster) or the bank app.
leagman1@feddit.org · 1 pts · 74d
lol
marcomedia@mastodon.green · 0 pts · 73d
@oats "it leaks my Iban if I actually pay with it"
What did you expect? Simply put, wero is just a convenient way to make a SEPA Instant Credit Transfer. Of course, the bank details will appear in the transaction history afterward. 🤷
oats@piefed.zip · 0 pts · 73d
You mean inconvenient. At this point, it's a lot less hassle just to use sepa instant.
I want to send you money.
"Hey, does your bank support wero? Great. I need your phone number. No, my bank doesn't support sending to emails. OK, I saved it to my contacts, I can now open my bank app and send you your 5€."
vs
"5€? Sure. opens banking app what's your iban? OK, done"
calavera@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 71d
Having to use a 34 character number does not seem better though
oats@piefed.zip · 1 pts · 71d
15 for a phone number, so only twice as bad.
And then not, as Iban has a checksum so you'll directly see errors, as opposed to a phone which will just reach the wrong person
northalpha@infosec.exchange · 1 pts · 69d
@leagman1 @oats wero is just IBAN to QRcode sadly
KurtVonnegut@mander.xyz · 12 pts · 75d
There is no "reject all" option for the cookies on this website?
oats@piefed.zip · 12 pts · 75d
In Germany its legal to demand payment for reject all, that's what you're seeing at heise 🤡
dubak@feddit.org · 29 pts · 75d
It's illegal in EU. There is an ongoing complaint against Heise submitted to Data protection authority in North Rhine-Westphalia. Just because the responsible authority has been dragging out the decision for four years, doesn't make it legal.
oats@piefed.zip · 13 pts · 75d
Thought heise already won in lower courts. Tbh I dont care too much, I trust ublock way more than any reject button anyways
ironblossom@feddit.org · -5 pts · 75d
thesdev@feddit.org · 19 pts · 75d
No, it's immoral for them to sell my data. They can advertise without the tracking bullshit too.
oats@piefed.zip · 1 pts · 75d
No, yes, probably, that's absurd
Ooops@feddit.org · -2 pts · 75d
You had an argument there... and then you mentioned state news. Ones that are just as eager to produce clickbait bullshit and constantly frame everything to either align with one political direction/party -totally coincidently of course- is well-connected with leading positions of those boradcaster or to make even the most rediculous crazy topics a valid opinion in a gigantic shit pile of false balancing. And so your argument sadly fell apart.
Yes, state news as they are right now, are indeed a waste of our tax euros and they don't even come close to doing the job they are supposed to do. They however manage to waste incredible amounts of money on entertainment that is not their job at all, while also only addressing a very narrow spectrum of viewers. That's impressive, but not actually good either...
pleb_maximus@piefed.zip · 1 pts · 75d
Except that is their job, too.
dubak@feddit.org · 6 pts · 75d
Heise.de is a crap source. Just downvote it. Barrier-free sources will be posted throughout weekend as they become available.
Scrollone@feddit.it · 1 pts · 74d
The real trick is using Firefox (not Chrome-based browsers) + uBlock Origin and enable the annoyances > cookie banners filter.
Enjoy a better internet!
HumbleExaggeration@feddit.org · 7 pts · 75d
Puh, the roadmap reads like a 5 year plan. I thought the digital euro was way closer to being introduced. Wasn't there news about it starting in early 2027 a few month back?
EatingOnions@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 75d
As far as I know it was always meant to be launched in 2029
HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 75d
That would be Wero, a private alternative of some sort
Scrollone@feddit.it · 1 pts · 74d
Too bad Wero decided to make you use your bank app. That's the most stupid decision ever.
FiskFisk33@startrek.website · 3 pts · 75d
Lol I can't get past the german cookie-wall