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c/europe · by schizoidman@lemmy.zip · 14d

Elections now would 'destroy Ukraine,' Zelensky says, revealing new details on disagreements with Fedorov

https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-rejects-fedorovs-wartime-election-call-says-vote-now-would-destroy-ukraine/

73 points · 28 comments · view on lemmy.world

28 Comments

kingofras@lemmy.world · 31 pts · 13d (5 replies)

This is a difficult tossup. Volodymyr knows we’re in a world where autocrats fabricate whatever narratives to cling on to power, like Benji, Donny, Vladdy, Modi, Xi, so you can understand some people see that he benefits from sustaining the war so he too can hold onto power.

On the other side of that argument is that even if he were to organise elections, that would be like opening a honey jar right next to a wasp nest. Given what St Petersburg has been able to poll off with Maga and Brexit, the time for elections may be over. I had a different opinion a few years ago, but in times of war (and ecocidal collapse) humans are so preoccupied with survival that they historically tend to just trust a strongman. They don’t tend to be fantastic or great, but in the case of Zelenskyy, I would still place him in the good category.

groet@feddit.org · 7 pts · 13d (4 replies)

On big problem is also this: many of the strongman started by being "good" before turning "evil".

They often bring actually change in a rigid and locked down situation. And often people have tangible benefits as a result. That's why the autocrats often have broad support in the population. They actually helped them 20 years ago. People remember the good things of the past and ignore the terrible things of the present.

I really don't want to be in his position and I don't know how to defend an election against Russian propaganda without severely limiting freedom of speech/press.

omgboom@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 12d (3 replies)

Name one autocrat that was a good person before taking power, just because I'm curious

groet@feddit.org · 2 pts · 12d

I very deliberately put good in quotes.

His tenure consisted of economic recovery from the economic crisis of 2001, the start of EU membership negotiations, and the reduction of military influence on politics. In late 2012, his government began peace negotiations with the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) to end the Kurdish–Turkish conflict, negotiations which ended three years later. [...] Erdoğan's presidency has been marked by democratic backsliding and a shift towards authoritarianism.

Mugabe's administration expanded healthcare and education. [...] Pursuing decolonisation, Mugabe emphasised the redistribution of land controlled by white farmers to landless blacks; [...] He was praised as a revolutionary hero of the African liberation struggle who helped free Zimbabwe from British colonialism, imperialism, and white minority rule. Critics accused Mugabe of being a dictator responsible for economic mismanagement and widespread corruption and human rights abuses, including anti-white racism, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

Often "good" just means "ended the (civil) war (by killing lot of the opposing side), thus bringing economic stability and growth while rebuilding infrastructure and (propagandised) education."

GraniteM@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 11d (1 reply)

"Good person" might be a stretch, but plenty of autocrats come to power in situations where people's real needs are not being met, and they are able to present a plausible-enough case that they ought to be given extraordinary powers in order to provide for them. Whether it's a good person looking to sweep away a corrupt old system or a prospective dictator looking for a way to exploit vulnerability, the pathway can be much the same.

omgboom@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 11d

Yeah you're right, Caesar did nothing wrong

deft@lemmy.wtf · 19 pts · 13d (1 reply)

As per Ukraine's constitution, elections are suspended under martial law, which has remained in force since Russia launched its full-scale invasion in February 2022.

Fedorov's proposal also drew criticism from some of the soldiers and protesters who had spent weeks demanding his reinstatement as defense minister

Desperate to stay relevant. Fedorov just needs to fuck off

Cypher@aussie.zone · 14 pts · 13d

He shouldn’t have been sidelined to start with but now that he’s out… he needs to stay out.

I suspect he’ll have a good career in politics post-war if he plays things right.

jenesaisquoi@feddit.org · 14 pts · 13d (19 replies)

Elections are unlawful in times of war.

Also, the kremlins influence campaigns would have a field day with this.

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · -18 pts · 13d (18 replies)

Elections are unlawful in times of war.

If that was true, the article and Zelensky surely would have said so.

AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip · 16 pts · 13d (7 replies)

Are you just mouthing off about what is and isn't in the article without even checking? Because the article does in fact say so.

As per Ukraine's constitution, elections are suspended under martial law, which has remained in force since Russia launched its full-scale invasion in February 2022.

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · -5 pts · 13d (6 replies)

Thanks, I did read over that. But it's still quite different from "unlawful". It's loaded language to preempt any discussion about democratic leadership. Clearly I'm not the only one thinking so, since at least Fedorov and quite a few protesters think so to.

Elections are unlawful in times of war.

per Ukraine’s constitution, elections are suspended under martial law

jenesaisquoi@feddit.org · 7 pts · 12d (1 reply)

Constitution says no elections during war. So holding elections is not in accordance with the constitution. In other words, unlawful.

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 12d

Ukraine’s Constitutional Order in Wartime, it's laws from 2015/2019, the constitution apparently speaks only of martial law / state of emergency.

So it's not unlawful to lift martial law and hold elections, just practically impossible.

AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 13d (3 replies)

Is it really that different? Either way, the government is forbidden to run and hold an election. You could get pedantic about the difference between at war and under martial law, but given this is a defensive war in which they're under active invasion, they're functionally identical because of course the country under invasion enacted martial law.

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 13d (2 replies)

I mean Fedorov thinks so, I imagine you would have to suspend martial law. Zelensky didn't say it's unlawful just that it would "destroy Ukraine".

I imagine it would quickly devolve into the question on whether "Ukraine should continue fighting until it wins the war" (24% in 2024) or "Ukraine should seek to negotiate an ending to the war as soon as possible" (69% in 2024). Obviously opinion could have changed quite a bit since then. And Fedorov doesn't seem to be the peace negotiation type either.

Should Ukrainians get a vote on that or not? If democracy is not for deciding such monumental questions, what is democracy for? Just saying "oh that's unlawful for Ukrainians to vote" is I think a bit... different.

Not that I think the terms Russia might dangle for a peace agreement would make for a good election platform lol. They want Ukraine to be neutral, reduce it's army, and want to keep the territory they conquered. And would probably also not agree to a ceasefire because they believe it would give Ukraine the opportunity to regroup.

But again impossible doesn't mean unlawful.

AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 12d (1 reply)

Except not even Federov thinks so because if you click through to the source on his call for elections, he's saying they basically need a way to hold elections, not that they have a way and aren't using it.

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 12d

I'm honestly not sure if this is just a power play which would be pretty insane, or something else. Someone mentioned this was about the strategy of using drones or how to use them or something. It's probably impossible to know right now since both sides heavily obscure the reality of the situation.

MousePotatoDoesStuff@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 12d (8 replies)

Does the article explicitly state that Kyiv is the capital of Ukraine? Some things don't have to be stated every time.

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 12d (7 replies)

Except it's not true.

Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 12d (6 replies)

If you can follow common sense and think a bit further, that is on you

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · -2 pts · 12d (5 replies)

It's explicitly not true that it's "unlawful" since they could suspend martial law and hold elections, or do some other kind of referendum. Personally I think it's "common sense" that the Ukrainian people should get a voice in how to fight or end this war. See my other comment for further thoughts.

Siegfried@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 12d (4 replies)

I think your common sense is broken.

AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 11d

Fedorov said Ukraine needs a "safe and realistic mechanism" to hold elections during wartime that protects the voting rights of soldiers, Ukrainians abroad, and people in front-line regions.

You@feddit.org · 2 pts · 13d

It's not so easy when Russia's spreading disinformation and Donald's regurgitating it.

But smart people write about Ukraine’s Constitutional Order in Wartime: Elections, Continuity, and Legitimacy

The article's conclusion:

Wartime elections are neither a legal obligation nor a democratic necessity when they cannot be free, fair, or secure. Historical precedents confirm that elections are only feasible when security conditions allow, which is not the case in Ukraine’s current war. Meanwhile, the absence of elections does not mean the absence of legitimacy. Ukraine’s constitutional provisions, democratic consensus, and international recognition ensure that its government remains constitutionally legitimate, functional, and committed to democratic principles.

Once martial law ends, Ukrainian authorities should fulfil their constitutional duty to hold elections, ensuring a seamless transition back to full democratic governance. This transition presents other unique challenges, from logistics to structuring the post-war electoral process – whether holding all elections simultaneously or sequencing presidential and parliamentary votes to uphold democratic principles. But until then, Ukraine’s leadership remains fully legitimate under both constitutional law and international recognition. Calls to question this legitimacy ignore Ukraine’s constitutional safeguards, historical precedent, and the security necessity of stable wartime governance.