Mathematical models can give you rigorous empirical predictions, but you cannot arrive at ontological statements about the nature of reality from mathematical postulates alone.
It is similar to an is/ought dilemma: an argument's conclusions cannot be stronger than its premises. Purely mathematical postulates will only get you to further mathematical conclusions. To say something about the nature of reality, you need an ontological postulate.
An ontological postulate is an assumption about the nature of reality and about how that reality relates to the mathematics. It goes beyond simply stating what the mathematical structure is or what predictions follow from it.
It is sort of like this: if you gave me a body of mathematics, I used it to make empirical predictions, and those predictions turned out to be correct, I would probably turn to you, astonished, and ask: Why are they correct? What does this mathematics mean? What does it represent?
Of course, you can be a pure pragmatist and not care about the answers to those questions at all. But almost no one is. Most people do care about ontological questions, such as "What is real?"
The important point, however, is that ontological postulates are not part of the mathematical framework itself. They are therefore not empirical in the same sense as the predictions generated by the mathematical model, and they cannot necessarily be experimentally proved or falsified.
That does not mean they are arbitrary. They still have to be consistent with the mathematics of the theory, and they still have to be coherent. Even if they cannot be empirically demonstrated, they must still be justified by some other means.
When I talk about "scientism," I am talking specifically about people who conflate ontological postulates with mathematical postulates, treating them as though they were one and the same and as though the former necessarily followed from the latter.
These people then provide no philosophical justification for their ontological postulates because they insist that those postulates have already been proved beyond any reasonable doubt by the mathematics and empirical evidence alone. In fact, if you ask them to justify their ontological assumptions, they will accuse you of being a science denier, a crackpot, or a crank simply for questioning the "scientific community."
Let me give you a simple example: fields.
Mathematically, a field is, roughly speaking, a quantity assigned to every point in some domain, such as 3D physical space. People often assume that these mathematical fields correspond to an ontological field: an invisible substance that permeates space and acts on particles, causing them to behave in particular ways. They therefore speak of fields as entities that exist in the world and have causal effects on particles.
However, it does not automatically follow from the empirical success of the mathematics of fields that we should interpret that mathematics as representing an ontological field, meaning an all-pervading invisible substance.
Suppose you turn on an electromagnet and observe iron filings arranging themselves along the familiar field lines. One interpretation is that the magnetic field acts on the iron filings and causes them to move into that configuration. But another interpretation is that the behavior of the iron filings follows from their own nature. The particles have certain dispositions to behave in certain ways under certain conditions, and the mathematics of fields describes those dispositions.
This is sometimes called a "dispositional" approach in the literature. The "nature" of an object is often described as its "disposition." To talk about the dispositional nature of particles is simply to talk about what those particles do given certain conditions, as a consequence of the laws governing their behavior, without proposing an additional invisible entity "from the outside" that acts upon them and causes them to move.
Notice what I have done here. I have questioned the ontological postulate that the mathematical field corresponds to an ontological field. But I have not questioned the mathematical field itself.
In other words, I am not questioning the efficacy of the mathematical model or its ability to predict what we observe. If I held this view, I would not be denying any empirical predictions made by the model, nor would I be denying any of the scientific evidence supporting those predictions. I would only be questioning what the mathematical model represents about reality.
This is just one example, and a relatively simple one at that. There are much more complicated examples when it comes to the ontological assumptions underlying theories of relativity or quantum mechanics.
Yet questioning an ontological postulate like this will quite often get you flamed, harassed, or attacked by large numbers of people because they equate ontological postulates with mathematical postulates. They then paint you as a "science denier," a "crank," a "flat-earther," or a "crackpot." They may accuse you of being "arrogant" or a "know-it-all" for "daring to question the scientific consensus." A newer insult I've encountered is the claim, made without evidence, that such ideas are the product of "AI psychosis."
If you point out that these personal attacks are unfair and that you'd like a real rebuttal to your argument, they then accuse you of "being upset that we did not automatically believe you without question and actually pushed back," even though their pushback never actually addresses the substance. This is because the person practicing scientism cannot address the substance because they don't know themselves why they believe those ontological postulates. They just take them as a given, without question, so they have no idea how to defend them other than to shut the skeptic down with personal attacks and appeals to popularity without ever actually addressing their argument.
For a real-life example of what I would consider scientism, consider Chad Orzel's TED-Ed talk on Schrödinger's cat. Schrödinger did not believe that the mathematical representation of a quantum superposition of states literally, ontologically, represents a system in multiple states at the same time. Orzel then presents Schrödinger's position as though rejecting this ontological interpretation of quantum superposition amounts to rejecting the science itself.
But Schrödinger obviously was not denying the empirical evidence or the mathematics. He was one of the people who developed the mathematics underlying quantum mechanics. His objection was to the interpretation of what that mathematics says about physical reality.
It is therefore disingenuous to frame disagreement over the ontology of quantum superposition as a rejection of science. Believing that a cat can literally be dead and alive at the same time in ontological reality is not a necessary condition for applying the mathematics of quantum mechanics or for building technologies based upon it.
When I refer to "scientism," then, I am referring to the failure to recognize that the mathematical postulates of scientific models are not, by themselves, sufficient to draw conclusions about the ontology of the world, the "truth" of the world.
To make ontological claims, you also need to put forward and defend ontological postulates. Those postulates are not themselves empirical observations, and they do not automatically follow from the mathematics.
The belief that ontological conclusions flow directly and necessarily from the mathematics is what causes people to become so dogmatic about them. A successful physical theory can effectively be elevated into a kind of religious faith: everyone repeats the associated ontological claims, those who question them are ostracized, and alternative possibilities are dismissed.
Yet when you ask for a philosophical defense of those ontological claims, there may be very little offered because the claims are simply assumed to have been empirically proven, despite the fact that the claims are non-empirical and cannot ever be empirically proven.
The irony is that none of this requires rejecting the science. You can accept the mathematics, accept the empirical evidence, accept the predictive success of the theory, and still ask a fundamentally different question: What, exactly, does this mathematical structure tell us about what reality is?
11 Comments
FRYD@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 11d
I’ve long held the belief that some people treat common science as a pseudo religion. They believe it to be absolute and unquestionable despite not accepting the limits of scientific observation. Whenever I talk about it online, people will come out of the woodwork to blast me for the perceived blasphemy.
Maybe it’s just human nature to cling to an explanation of things rather than accept that “knowing” anything is actually an extremely difficult thing to do.
To me, those people aren’t worth having a discussion with anyway, just like any similarly zealous religious person.
Objection@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 11d
Yeah, the perspective you're describing is similar to Aristotelianism, and it's unfortunately common. Purely focusing on evidence is not scientific as it's refusing to acknowledge the philosophical framework underpinning an idea, which is just a base assertion of your own implicit framework.
For those who don't know, Aristotle was all about evidence and observation, and mideval scholars were all about him, during the time commonly known as "The Dark Ages." The Copernican Revolution changed that by focusing not just on evidence, but also on theory and frameworks. You can make a geocentric model of the solar system that fits all the evidence (and people did), the problem is that it winds up being extremely convoluted with a ton of arbitrary rules. It is only through a synthesis of theory and evidence that we can start talking about "scientists" as opposed to "scholars."
It is for this reason that we cautiously talk about "interpretations" of QM, because when multiple frameworks are consistent with the evidence, then there's a degree of just considering which one makes "intuitive sense," or which one's assumptions are easiest to accept. And that's more of a philosophical question which is hard to answer objectively and definitively.
But it's not limited to QM. There's a certain kind of person that sees science as always delivering a clear black-and-white answer to everything, with no intellectual flexibility or respect for critical thought, as though being scientifically-minded means denouncing anyone who questions and thinks critically about things. This is product of living in a time when there is so much anti-intellectualism, so many grifters and bullshit peddlers, that there is a somewhat understandable knee-jerk reaction against any questioning of any mainstream ideas. It is one of the ways that far-right ideas indirectly influence the way people think, even among people who reject them.
Much as I hate to "dumb down" the conversation with a nerdy pop culture reference, it reminds me a lot of Warhammer lore. Originally, the Imperium was secularist, but advanced its specific ideological framework through force. The holes in that framework led to a group that questioned and rejected it, but they just started worshipping demons instead. This resulted in the Imperium digging in, demanding worship of the Emperor and hunting down anyone who questioned his authority as "heretics." In a sense, the Chaos-worshippers won in spite of being defeated, because they made the Imperium abandon its ideals for superstition.
In the same way, "scientism" rejects the very ideals and foundations of scientific thought, of critical thinking and questioning and reexamining beliefs, in a reaction against those who use that opportunistically and in bad faith to advance "my opinion is just as valid as your facts." The sort of, "Smoking has been shown to cause lung cancer with 99% confidence" "So you're saying you're not completely sure. Excuse me for a moment while I take this check from the tobacco lobby. Now, as I was saying, I'm just critically examining the mainstream consensus." It is understandable that there is a reaction to that, but its still an overreaction to dismiss all criticism just because some people are criticizing in bad faith. Blind faith in scientific institutions, blanket dismissal of questions and criticisms, is not consistent with scientific ideals.
What is happening in the world right now is not so much a debate as a war. War turns people in to soldiers, and soldiers don't think. Carrying the flame of truth through these dark times is becoming more and more difficult.
jh29a@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 11d
As you seem to allude, the ontology of something like magnetism is an unknowable thing in the details of how it works, like whether the magnetic field exists and influences and is influenced by magnetic things, or whether magnetic things can (or "have the disposition to") react to the presence of other magnetic things in their environment, somehow directly; I imagine this as a relation that magnetic things have with each other that influences their movement and electric current.
I agree that disagreement about which one it is is not heresy as you describe. But only when you can name what your ontological view does better than a different one will I start to care about it.
Every "ontological view" seems to only have value for explaining how to understand the empirical science being done. This might sound weird to people who really want to have a belief about how things actually are, but I think it only makes sense to say how things are when it has been verified, and everything below that gets designed by theoretical physicists to make the calculations easier, or by you or other philosophers to try imagining how much sense it would make. When brought to reflect about it, I will always say that I don't hold any absolute beliefs about how things are, I just entertain them when they are consistent and useful to me. I think this makes me a pragmatist.
bunchberry@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 10d
No, I agree, you should justify your ontological view (if you put forward one at all). But the point is it not empirical. So neither my, nor your, justification can be something settled by evidence. That doesn't mean all explanations are equal, or that explanations cannot be scrutinized. A justification for them should still be provided.
For example, if you think my ontology is unnecessarily excessive in a particular case, you can justify yours over mine by invoking Occam's razor. People do that all the time. That's a philosophical justification that ultimately isn't an empirical one, but it's still an argument. We shouldn't just throw all our ideas out there as if they are all equal and shouldn't be discussed. If one wants to convince others at all, they should still try to convince them with some sort of justification or argument that may not itself be empirical but could still be convincing.
The kind of thing I am talking about here is impossible to verify. The ontological claim of field substantivalism (the idea that the mathematics of fields represents an invisible substance in the world that acts on particles) and the ontological claim of field dispositionalism (the idea that the mathematics of fields represents a description of the dispositions of particles) are both empirically and mathematically equivalent so they lie beyond the possibility of any sort of empirical verification.
Instead, you'd want to give some sort of justification to prefer one approach over another that is not itself empirical. I just prefer field dispositionalism because I find it to be deflationary and generally am not a fan of people proposing invisible substances that cannot ever be observed but are said to act, like the hand of God, from the outside to guide things around and explain what we do observe. Field substantivalism introduces two substances: particles+fields, but field dispositionalism subtracts the fields as a substance of the world (although it doesn't subtract the mathematics of fields), and so you just have particles, and that's what makes it deflationary.
The thing is, because the points of view are mathematically equivalent, then it doesn't contradict with the physicists' desire to make calculations easier.
jh29a@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 9d
Thanks for clarifying so much that I now agree
reallykindasorta@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 11d
I’m constantly surprised by how uncurious scientists are about what their models let us claim about the world. After doing all that work it seems like waxing poetic about what it can and can’t definitively tell us about the world would be the fun part!
Cognitive archeologist Karenleigh Overmann has a fascinating theory about (sapien) brain evolution and its close relationship with numeracy and literacy that I think might contribute to our frequent conflation between the various techniques we use to quantify/analyze/give meaning to the stuff we encounter and the stuff itself.
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 11d
Funnily enough, the flat-earther "movement" supposedly started as a tongue-in-cheek criticism of scientism.
Faith in science, as a method, is virtuous. Blind faith in the current scientific consensus is problematic.
davel@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 11d
Neil deGrasse Tyson sucks for a few reasons; claiming that science has obviated philosophy is one of them. He’s no Carl Sagan.
bunchberry@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 11d
davel@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 11d
I wonder where the mute downvoters (counter-)arguments are…
pineapple@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 11d
I agree.
spacegoat@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 11d
This is also how I feel about the field of economics. What a pity and a waste.