Leftists oppose the fact that the capitalists control the world. Liberals support the fact that capitalists control the world, and some of them are very loud about how they wish that control was administered more politely.
Of course liberals and leftists fight, for the same reason that leftists fight with more impolite right-wingers. We share a fundamental disagreement, an unbridgeable chasm. It's not contrived. It's a deep theoretical, practical, and moral disagreement, namely on the role of capitalism (or lack thereof) in our shared future.
Any coalition involving both liberals and leftists must eventually pick a side to resolve this divergence in our interests. And frankly, the only way to resolve it is to either become leftist and abandon liberalism, or devolve into yet another liberal capitalist waste of time and air.
Mutual Aid groups? Community defense organizations? ICE watch? Stop Cop City? Back in the day, Dakota Oil Pipeline protests? The anti-Zionist movement? Black Lives Matter? Occupy Wall Street? Obviously not all of these are exclusively leftist, but in all of these, leftists have had huge presence.
When it comes to boots-on-the-ground individuals actually having a physical presence and doing the work of building communities, leftists are often the only ones there. Liberals abandoned that work a long time ago. Part of the reason the left lost the working-class vote has been because having the weight of the "enlightened centrists" around our necks stunted the real work to improve their living conditions. Of course they're going to be resentful when all they get is patronizing words and no results. "But we have to keep the donors happy" the heck we do. Bending the knee to the robber barons and nerfing every effort to benefit workers has violated the trust of everyone who once believed that we could do more together than worship a golden throne. If we're going to earn that trust back, the last thing we need is become more conservative. We need to deliver results, and that's not something a Liberal knows anything about.
Yeah all your civil rights and labor rights just came out of voting and liberal parades. Please ignore the literal battles that have been fought over the subject.
What, am I just supposed to go back to not treating everyone I interact with as an adversary even though I'm in an overwhelmingly leftist space? But that's how Maga winsss!!!!¡
because it is. when someone is trying to kick you out of the party ask yourself if an undercover republican or russian bot would more likely be doing this over someone who legitimately is part of the party.
No, in context its a very real criticism of their stance. Stop trying to jam every thought terminating cliche into every conversation that criticizes your ideology.
I can't believe I've lived long enough to see "thought-terminating cliche" become a thought-terminating cliche.
More seriously, yes it's criticism; it's just (for the reason I gave) not very good criticism. The way the American system works, you don't need to agree with or like the people in a party to run under its name, and under a two-party system there's no reason to self-impose that condition.
If that were true quit trying build one with the DNC.
Again, an important feature of the American system is that you don't have to do that to run under a party's name. Borrowing the label for name recognition is something you can do here and it doesn't mean you're in the same team as the rest of the party.
Yeah I'm an anarchist, I don't care about platforming Democratic """socialists""". Actually, I think the DSA ultimately siphons good people away from fighting oppression into liberal power structures, i.e. they benefit liberalism more than they help advance anti-capitalist worker power. There are definitely good people in the DSA, but IMO they're wasting their time and energy.
I mean you can discount the socialists as a part of the left if you want.
I'm discounting the DSA specifically as a part of the left, with the caveat that this is a minority opinion. While as an anarchist I absolutely disagree with other socialists on a variety of issues, clearly anarchists and non-anarchist socialists are leftists.
Not to be divisive, but...not completely. I would argue that anarchism is more comprehensive in its desire to eliminate hierarchy and authority than socialism. Anarchists are socialists, but most anarchists want to go further than socialism, and we all want to do it in a way that respects means-ends unity, i.e. the means we use to achieve our ends should resemble those ends.
For this reason, even though anarchists and other socialists both want to abolish capitalism and put workers in control of the means of production...we have wildly different visions for what that looks like. We share a common language primarily, and many common values (e.g. egalitarianism, anti-racism, anti-fascism, feminism, anti-LGBTphobia, internationalism, anti-imperialism, anti-capitalism), but the theoretical and practical divide between anarchism and Marxism is fundamental.
That being said, non-anarchist socialists are absolutely leftists. No question. We do share enough commonality to share that label. But we do not have exactly the same goals.
This reply was supposed to come sooner but yeah you're right. I was mostly referring to the goal of establish a true Communist society (stateless classless moneyless). Of course the how we get there and what it looks like can be very different depending on the ideology.
Anarchists are socialists, but most anarchists want to go further than socialism
I'd argue that's most socialists. Ideologically I'm an anarcho-communist, if I could snap my fingers and instantly give everyone class consciousness and a stable anarch-communist society, I would. But I can't, so I think in terms of steps to get there. Shifting the perspectives of hundreds of millions of people takes time and effort.
Right now, the next obvious step to me is market socialism. Eventually the market should yield to spontaneous mutual aid, but that will take time. Consequentially, I presently advocate Democratic Socialism. Once we have that, I'll take another step towards anarchy, rinse and repeat.
we all want to do it in a way that respects means-ends unity, i.e. the means we use to achieve our ends should resemble those ends.
I think this perspective underestimates the strength of the forces opposing us. Not just the actual individuals deliberately working against us, but also the alienated and propagandized working class.
49 Comments
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus · 14 pts · 5d
From the previous version:
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -4 pts · 5d
Leftists get a pass. Dont worry they will chip in on the next struggle against oppression.
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus · 14 pts · 5d
...do you think leftists aren't contributing to various struggles against oppression?
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -6 pts · 5d
Not in any impactful way unless you count accelerationism as a humanitarian effort.
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus · 18 pts · 4d
Mutual Aid groups? Community defense organizations? ICE watch? Stop Cop City? Back in the day, Dakota Oil Pipeline protests? The anti-Zionist movement? Black Lives Matter? Occupy Wall Street? Obviously not all of these are exclusively leftist, but in all of these, leftists have had huge presence.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -4 pts · 4d
Hey, Im terse, I know, but mad respect here.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 4d
When it comes to boots-on-the-ground individuals actually having a physical presence and doing the work of building communities, leftists are often the only ones there. Liberals abandoned that work a long time ago. Part of the reason the left lost the working-class vote has been because having the weight of the "enlightened centrists" around our necks stunted the real work to improve their living conditions. Of course they're going to be resentful when all they get is patronizing words and no results. "But we have to keep the donors happy" the heck we do. Bending the knee to the robber barons and nerfing every effort to benefit workers has violated the trust of everyone who once believed that we could do more together than worship a golden throne. If we're going to earn that trust back, the last thing we need is become more conservative. We need to deliver results, and that's not something a Liberal knows anything about.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 4d
Sounds like prejudice and virtue signaling to me.
One sweeping statement you take credit for any amount of good with nothing to back it up other than blind confidence.
Straight maga type rhetorical bs.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 8 pts · 4d
Yeah all your civil rights and labor rights just came out of voting and liberal parades. Please ignore the literal battles that have been fought over the subject.
JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 5d
The fact it has to say "lefty liberal" kinda proves it's not infighting
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -4 pts · 5d
Not in any sense of the word coalition.
2hundredpancakes@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 4d
Guess we'll see if this bait post lasts any longer than the previous one. Don't bother feeding the troll... just report
the_fuckler@nord.pub · 2 pts · 5d
What, am I just supposed to go back to not treating everyone I interact with as an adversary even though I'm in an overwhelmingly leftist space? But that's how Maga winsss!!!!¡
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -2 pts · 5d
Maga won bro. Id still keep you though.
the_fuckler@nord.pub · 4 pts · 4d
🫂
dbtng@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 4d
ZMoney@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
Saw this band in Albuquerque, they were incredible!
dbtng@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 3d
They are on tour with GWAR. I'm gonna catch em again in November.
Diva@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 4d
'lefty liberal infighting'
i'm not infighting with liberals, you're not in the coalition. it's just fighting, cause people like you are the reason we are where we are
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 4d
Are you sure that isnt projection. Im saying its contrived. Manufactured. Not real.
Anyway, sorry bout your broken brain.
Smoogs@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
because it is. when someone is trying to kick you out of the party ask yourself if an undercover republican or russian bot would more likely be doing this over someone who legitimately is part of the party.
be wary of rumours and triple check the source.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 2d
Sad, we watched them do it to the GOP and then are surprised when they came after the DNC.
njm1314@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -8 pts · 5d
Gotta keep the infighting alive! For capital!
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus · 12 pts · 5d
It's not infighting if we're not within the same organization or coalition. It's just fighting.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -6 pts · 5d
Then quit running DSA candidates under the DNC.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 7 pts · 4d
I wish they'd do that too, but also real "but you participate in society, curious" energy there given that America is under a two party system.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -5 pts · 4d
No, in context its a very real criticism of their stance. Stop trying to jam every thought terminating cliche into every conversation that criticizes your ideology.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 7 pts · 4d
I can't believe I've lived long enough to see "thought-terminating cliche" become a thought-terminating cliche.
More seriously, yes it's criticism; it's just (for the reason I gave) not very good criticism. The way the American system works, you don't need to agree with or like the people in a party to run under its name, and under a two-party system there's no reason to self-impose that condition.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -4 pts · 4d
Again youre missing the context.
Op was saying there is no coalition. If that were true quit trying build one with the DNC. Otherwise, if the DSA can stand on its own, it would have.
Thats why he went straight to gatekeeping because he knows its true that leftys side with liberals in the usa.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 5 pts · 4d
I'm not it's literally right there.
Again, an important feature of the American system is that you don't have to do that to run under a party's name. Borrowing the label for name recognition is something you can do here and it doesn't mean you're in the same team as the rest of the party.
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus · 2 pts · 5d
Yeah I'm an anarchist, I don't care about platforming Democratic """socialists""". Actually, I think the DSA ultimately siphons good people away from fighting oppression into liberal power structures, i.e. they benefit liberalism more than they help advance anti-capitalist worker power. There are definitely good people in the DSA, but IMO they're wasting their time and energy.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -5 pts · 5d
I mean you can discount the socialists as a part of the left if you want. Im just saying titles have lost their usefulness at that level of scrutiny.
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus · 6 pts · 4d
I'm discounting the DSA specifically as a part of the left, with the caveat that this is a minority opinion. While as an anarchist I absolutely disagree with other socialists on a variety of issues, clearly anarchists and non-anarchist socialists are leftists.
JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 4d
At least anarchists and socialists have the same end goal in mind
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus · 6 pts · 4d
Not to be divisive, but...not completely. I would argue that anarchism is more comprehensive in its desire to eliminate hierarchy and authority than socialism. Anarchists are socialists, but most anarchists want to go further than socialism, and we all want to do it in a way that respects means-ends unity, i.e. the means we use to achieve our ends should resemble those ends.
For this reason, even though anarchists and other socialists both want to abolish capitalism and put workers in control of the means of production...we have wildly different visions for what that looks like. We share a common language primarily, and many common values (e.g. egalitarianism, anti-racism, anti-fascism, feminism, anti-LGBTphobia, internationalism, anti-imperialism, anti-capitalism), but the theoretical and practical divide between anarchism and Marxism is fundamental.
That being said, non-anarchist socialists are absolutely leftists. No question. We do share enough commonality to share that label. But we do not have exactly the same goals.
JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 1d
This reply was supposed to come sooner but yeah you're right. I was mostly referring to the goal of establish a true Communist society (stateless classless moneyless). Of course the how we get there and what it looks like can be very different depending on the ideology.
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 4d
I'd argue that's most socialists. Ideologically I'm an anarcho-communist, if I could snap my fingers and instantly give everyone class consciousness and a stable anarch-communist society, I would. But I can't, so I think in terms of steps to get there. Shifting the perspectives of hundreds of millions of people takes time and effort.
Right now, the next obvious step to me is market socialism. Eventually the market should yield to spontaneous mutual aid, but that will take time. Consequentially, I presently advocate Democratic Socialism. Once we have that, I'll take another step towards anarchy, rinse and repeat.
I think this perspective underestimates the strength of the forces opposing us. Not just the actual individuals deliberately working against us, but also the alienated and propagandized working class.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -2 pts · 4d
Until you lock them both in a room together with no one else.
JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 4d
Really living up to your username