True, but kind of hilarious that you're basically explaining why tariffs are used. Like, fuckery? Tariffs are absolutely vital. It's when you have no fucking idea how they work a la MAGA that they get used as a weapon instead of a tool.
You don't want BYD coming in tariff free exactly because it would collapse not just the domestic brands but also the entire economic infrastructure around them.
I'd feel more strongly at protecting national brands if they didn't outsource and import 99% of the car. The only national brand that primarily manufactures everything in the us is Tesla, and it's ran by an anti-union nazi.
It would be fair to tarrif the imports to the extent of the Chinese manufacturing subsidy to level the playing field.
Beyond that, let us allow them in to put some pressure on domestic manufacturers to force production of products that we can actually afford to buy as an alternative to a 50K family wagon that has fewer features and is less efficient.
Our domestic vehicle choices are woefully inadequate to the times we live in and something needs to change. Affordability is not a pipe dream is what China is teaching us - don't let that message pass you by as they build a strong economy around us.
Capitalism does not require universal free trade. That's not viable under any system.
Edit:
capitalism/kăp′ĭ-tl-ĭz″əm/
noun
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
An economic system based on predominantly private (individual or corporate) investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of goods and wealth; contrasted with socialism or especially communism, in which the state has the predominant role in the economy.
Similar: capitalist economy
A socio-economic system based on private property rights, including the private ownership of resources or capital, with economic decisions made largely through the operation of a market unregulated by the state.
Capitalism assumes that everyone can compete and the best and cheapest product wins. Everything else are regulations we invented to keep capitalism in check, since its a pretty self destructive system.
Your own explanation of the word works against you.
A socio-economic system based on private property rights, including the private ownership of resources or capital, with economic decisions made largely through the operation of a market unregulated by the state.
What exactly counts as a market has changed over the last few centuries due to the industrialisation and globalisation, but by now with all the trade agreements and the ease of access, its fair to say that we have a global market.
Tariffs as a form to counter the heavy subsidization that China has within its car market could still be considered pure capitalism, but even then their cars would be 50% cheaper than EU/US models. Everything on top of that is blatant market manipulation done by countries or groups of interest (EU) to keep their domestic market relevant in a system that's fundamentally designed to do the opposite.
Now that doesn't exactly mean that these regulations are a bad thing, I don't think we should give Chinese companies sole control over the global market just cause they have cheap labor. But it does show that capitalism is a failing system that needs increasingly more guardrails the bigger the market gets.
So you agree that capitalism's primary use is not to ensure the supply of everyone's needs with the most effective usage of resources.
But rather: it's about competition on an international level. And the former kingpins (so-called "US" and Europe) try to stop their inevitable decline.
Ekhm.
Do you know exactly how [rear earth] minerals are extracted (and how this industry became dominant in China over the rest of the world)? Other industries (with respective wages and employees' rights)?
Just let's be clear and specific about (methods of) oppression (if you insist on using this term exactly). The word is overused imo to drive specific agenda nowadays, unfortunately.
BYD being a cheap import because it is built where costs are lower is the same thing as US brands offshoring manufacturing. US brands get government favoritism through tax breaks and other benefits.
It would actually be pretty neat if BYD built factories in the US like the Japanese brands did to get around the import part. The costs would be higher of course, but still better than the current overpriced offerings from brands that have no real competition.
Even with a 100% tariff, BYD would still be the best deal. From what my friends who frequently travel in Canada say, the cars themselves are excellent too. With their first solid state battery products releasing in 2027, they're poised to be what people thought Tesla was going to be 10 years ago while Tesla has mired itself in musky politics. The board needs to drop Elon as part of its plans to survive the next decade.
Why is everything the size of a fucking tank? What happened to small cars that can fit into my 1890s drive designed for carriages and horses? (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Ohhh this looks not bad, how is it when it comes to privacy? I was looking at something around the size of Kia Picanto. That fits very nicely (tested with real car), but electric is better.
It is probably a privacy nightmare, like any modern car. Biggest difference is probably in which law sphere you reside and if it has any meaningful data protection legislation.
The Chinese are now putting voice control mics on the outside of some cars, but I'm assuming that's reserved for high end models for now. The idea being you can just say "open frunk" instead of having to press a button, etc.
They also have no reason to be better on privacy than everyone else.
You're not going to get privacy in any car made in the last 10 years or so.
I am just moaning about the ginormous cars I keep seeing on the roads of my little UK town (really it's more like a village) and seeing how they are having so much issues parking. Some keep popping out of their driveways! While I still have a pram, it's a right pain (not to mention disabled people!)
I know the pain. My '07 skoda estate (which is old world speak for "extra long for the boot space") fits in my 1960s garage in a very small window to both allow the roller door to close and for the washing machine door to open.
This same car gets blinded by headlights at head level, and is matched in length by the modern Renault 5.
And yet that's light af compared to the penalties foreign automakers face in China because China doesn't want foreign cars in their country. And that was BEFORE they even knew how to make good car.
China's mission now is to be the only country whose manufacturers you can buy cars from eventually. When that happens, don't expect them to stay subsidised.
Was it waymo that got around the China tariffs by essential buying separate parts? Like buying vehicles with no motors and then buying the motors separately.
it is super cute! If I didn't have teenage kids I would have gotten something like that (or the renault 5). In the end I got the Atto3 evo and I've been happy with it.
70 Comments
CMDR_Horn@lemmy.world · 61 pts · 3d
If BYD were available in the USA to consumers without tarrif fuckery, all domestic brands would ho belly up in a year
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 3d
True, but kind of hilarious that you're basically explaining why tariffs are used. Like, fuckery? Tariffs are absolutely vital. It's when you have no fucking idea how they work a la MAGA that they get used as a weapon instead of a tool.
You don't want BYD coming in tariff free exactly because it would collapse not just the domestic brands but also the entire economic infrastructure around them.
cogman@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 3d
I'd feel more strongly at protecting national brands if they didn't outsource and import 99% of the car. The only national brand that primarily manufactures everything in the us is Tesla, and it's ran by an anti-union nazi.
CMDR_Horn@lemmy.world · 28 pts · 3d
You assume i dont want it to burn
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 3d
I kind of expected that reply lol
nullspace@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 3d
Can't really feel bad for companies who shipped away all their jobs only to get beat by the competition they trained.
rouxdoo@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 3d
It would be fair to tarrif the imports to the extent of the Chinese manufacturing subsidy to level the playing field.
Beyond that, let us allow them in to put some pressure on domestic manufacturers to force production of products that we can actually afford to buy as an alternative to a 50K family wagon that has fewer features and is less efficient.
Our domestic vehicle choices are woefully inadequate to the times we live in and something needs to change. Affordability is not a pipe dream is what China is teaching us - don't let that message pass you by as they build a strong economy around us.
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 3d
Agreed, that's the best option
hanrahan@slrpnk.net · 13 pts · 3d
so, not capitalism, because it can't compete?
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · -5 pts · 3d
That's not how that works.
Capitalism does not require universal free trade. That's not viable under any system.
Edit:
capitalism/kăp′ĭ-tl-ĭz″əm/
noun
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
An economic system based on predominantly private (individual or corporate) investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of goods and wealth; contrasted with socialism or especially communism, in which the state has the predominant role in the economy. Similar: capitalist economy
A socio-economic system based on private property rights, including the private ownership of resources or capital, with economic decisions made largely through the operation of a market unregulated by the state.
Jako302@feddit.org · 7 pts · 3d
Capitalism assumes that everyone can compete and the best and cheapest product wins. Everything else are regulations we invented to keep capitalism in check, since its a pretty self destructive system.
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 2d
Within borders it does. Internationally, no.
People can downvote with their emotions all they want. Doesn't make you right.
Jako302@feddit.org · 1 pts · 2d
Your own explanation of the word works against you.
What exactly counts as a market has changed over the last few centuries due to the industrialisation and globalisation, but by now with all the trade agreements and the ease of access, its fair to say that we have a global market.
Tariffs as a form to counter the heavy subsidization that China has within its car market could still be considered pure capitalism, but even then their cars would be 50% cheaper than EU/US models. Everything on top of that is blatant market manipulation done by countries or groups of interest (EU) to keep their domestic market relevant in a system that's fundamentally designed to do the opposite.
Now that doesn't exactly mean that these regulations are a bad thing, I don't think we should give Chinese companies sole control over the global market just cause they have cheap labor. But it does show that capitalism is a failing system that needs increasingly more guardrails the bigger the market gets.
Prunebutt@slrpnk.net · 7 pts · 3d
So you agree that capitalism's primary use is not to ensure the supply of everyone's needs with the most effective usage of resources.
But rather: it's about competition on an international level. And the former kingpins (so-called "US" and Europe) try to stop their inevitable decline.
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
No, it is not about competition on an international level. It's an economic system for a state, not an economic strategy
Prunebutt@slrpnk.net · 0 pts · 2d
Umm, we're in international economy. There's no capitalist state that doesn't do international trade.
And the states are in competition with one another. That's why tarifs exist.
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2d
That's correct. Not sure what your point is?
Prunebutt@slrpnk.net · 0 pts · 2d
International economy means that there is a competition going on between the nations.
If Chinese companies sell more EVs, Germany's economy suffers.
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1d
True or false: A capitalist nation can trade with a communist nation.
the_q@piefed.social · 5 pts · 3d
This system of oppression needs to collapse.
nimisnimi@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1d
Ekhm. Do you know exactly how [rear earth] minerals are extracted (and how this industry became dominant in China over the rest of the world)? Other industries (with respective wages and employees' rights)?
Just let's be clear and specific about (methods of) oppression (if you insist on using this term exactly). The word is overused imo to drive specific agenda nowadays, unfortunately.
snooggums@piefed.world · 1 pts · 2d
BYD being a cheap import because it is built where costs are lower is the same thing as US brands offshoring manufacturing. US brands get government favoritism through tax breaks and other benefits.
It would actually be pretty neat if BYD built factories in the US like the Japanese brands did to get around the import part. The costs would be higher of course, but still better than the current overpriced offerings from brands that have no real competition.
CalemitousVariantK@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 2d
Even with a 100% tariff, BYD would still be the best deal. From what my friends who frequently travel in Canada say, the cars themselves are excellent too. With their first solid state battery products releasing in 2027, they're poised to be what people thought Tesla was going to be 10 years ago while Tesla has mired itself in musky politics. The board needs to drop Elon as part of its plans to survive the next decade.
CMDR_Horn@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
I'd expect team mango to shoot for 4-900% tariff
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2d
I doubt it. People will eat old window caulk before giving up their V8 pickups.
BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
Nobody cares about those folks, it's the rest of us that want them.
blartcap_@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 2d
They'll be eating caulk just to keep affording the gas to run those V8s at this rate.
StealthLizardDrop@piefed.social · 38 pts · 3d
Why is everything the size of a fucking tank? What happened to small cars that can fit into my 1890s drive designed for carriages and horses? (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
hanrahan@slrpnk.net · 12 pts · 3d
The BYD Atto 1 (Dolphin) is what you're after.
StealthLizardDrop@piefed.social · 7 pts · 3d
Ohhh this looks not bad, how is it when it comes to privacy? I was looking at something around the size of Kia Picanto. That fits very nicely (tested with real car), but electric is better.
Jiral@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 3d
It is probably a privacy nightmare, like any modern car. Biggest difference is probably in which law sphere you reside and if it has any meaningful data protection legislation.
sanzky@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
probably the same as any other new car (i.e. not great). it has google OS on it , a cellular modem, gps, etc.
boonhet@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 2d
The Chinese are now putting voice control mics on the outside of some cars, but I'm assuming that's reserved for high end models for now. The idea being you can just say "open frunk" instead of having to press a button, etc.
They also have no reason to be better on privacy than everyone else.
You're not going to get privacy in any car made in the last 10 years or so.
Theoriginalthon@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
Safety regulations, the only way to decrease impact forces is to average them over a distance with crumple zones
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2d
Because people are only getting fatter.
Iconoclast@feddit.uk · -5 pts · 3d
There's tons of small affordable cars available to anyone who wants one. Nobody is forcing you to buy a large one if you have no use for it.
StealthLizardDrop@piefed.social · 7 pts · 3d
I am just moaning about the ginormous cars I keep seeing on the roads of my little UK town (really it's more like a village) and seeing how they are having so much issues parking. Some keep popping out of their driveways! While I still have a pram, it's a right pain (not to mention disabled people!)
J92@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 3d
I know the pain. My '07 skoda estate (which is old world speak for "extra long for the boot space") fits in my 1960s garage in a very small window to both allow the roller door to close and for the washing machine door to open. This same car gets blinded by headlights at head level, and is matched in length by the modern Renault 5.
thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe · 4 pts · 3d
Here in the UK yes, plenty of options, in Magastan ? Not so much.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 31 pts · 3d
An affordable car, that doesn't need gas. Of course it's not available in America.
sanzky@lemmy.world · 29 pts · 3d
it's good to mention those prices are only for China. In Europe, the current model after tariffs and taxes is around 36k€.
RagingRobot@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 2d
Tariffs imposed by your own government to keep you from getting it at the cheapest price so their friends car companies can compete
boonhet@lemmy.zip · 12 pts · 2d
And yet that's light af compared to the penalties foreign automakers face in China because China doesn't want foreign cars in their country. And that was BEFORE they even knew how to make good car.
China's mission now is to be the only country whose manufacturers you can buy cars from eventually. When that happens, don't expect them to stay subsidised.
sanzky@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 2d
yes. they is how tariff works.
but to be fair, the chinese government is subsidizing those cars to keep their price artificially down and take over the industry.
they are still a better deal than most european EVs
87Six@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 2d
Diabolical to buy such a car at that price.
sanzky@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 2d
all cars are super expensive these days. it's incredible how much they have go up since 2020
87Six@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 2d
All NEW cars
Which nobody should buy
Everyone should be buying used cars from 2000 - 2015, I will die on this hill
sanzky@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 2d
not thanks. Im done with burning stuff to move around.
87Six@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 2d
pay up then rich king
abrasiveteapot@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 3d
£
2630k to 35K for the Atto2 in the UKedit to correct, that'll teach me to trust autotrader
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 3d
Yes…
YESSS…
ugh.
baguettefish@discuss.tchncs.de · 11 pts · 3d
BYD also sells other electric cars, for example the seagull/dolphin surf/atto 1 (different name depending on region), which is a hatchback city car
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
Do they sell a GTI?
SmokedBillionaire@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 3d
God I miss the era of hatchbacks just every-fucking-where. My first car was a manual '91 Civic DX that got 45 miles per gallon.
sanzky@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
the dolphin is basically golf size
psx_crab@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 3d
How come? The smallest dolphin is Hector's dolphin which is about 1.2m in length, while golf ball is about 42.67mm. /s
onlyhalfminotaur@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
VW is about to release an electric Golf. Probably not in the US though.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Yes, and it’s rear wheel drive :(
macaw_dean_settle@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 2d
Only would buy it because it is an SUV.
drmoose@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 3d
Current Atto kinda sucks though the interior is "gym themed", I kid you not. The gear shift is a kettlebell
Seems like they actually updated the interior away from these absurd themes and just started to make normal cars now.
The biggest car interior improvement of the century right here.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2d
do you even lift? it's like every auto shift knob.
homik@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 2d
I.e. totally unnecessary.
baldingpudenda@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 3d
Was it waymo that got around the China tariffs by essential buying separate parts? Like buying vehicles with no motors and then buying the motors separately.
southsamurai@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 3d
An electric I could almost afford
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
I have a BYD dolphin essential
It's not perfect, but it was the cheapest car I could get, cheaper than most second-hand hybrids around me
I love it!
sanzky@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
it is super cute! If I didn't have teenage kids I would have gotten something like that (or the renault 5). In the end I got the Atto3 evo and I've been happy with it.
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
Mine is about the size of a corolla hatchback
It's plenty big enough for what I want, and I charge for free while I'm at work!