Too young for the concept of doing work in exchange for something? No, I don’t think so. There’s no minimum age to learn how to do something, for the most part, if the interest is there.
However, those lower-wage jobs tend to be where a lot of the worker rights abuse tends to happen, and I absolutely think it’s way too young for them to realize if/when it’s happening, or to be in a position to properly defend themselves if they do. Sure, parental guidance and all, but let’s say my experience working with all kinds of parents in day camps, as a ski instructor and in elementary schools, didn’t make me very optimistic about a lot of them really being in a position to protect their children at work.
I’ve also honestly yet to really see it happening where it has 0 impact on their schooling, but that’s rather anecdotal…
I started working full time during the summer the year I turned 13. I was working for my family's company and my safety was always the most important thing.
In the current environment of the exploration of workers I feel that it is unacceptable for children to work for any company other than a family company or a small company that will not exploit them and that will protect them.
Small companies vary widely in their morals. The best ones might indeed protect and teach, rather than exploit, a young worker. The worst ones . . . are worse than any large company, and you can't always tell from outside which type you've got. And family companies can be just as bad as any other small company, alas.
Remember that this was YOUR family's company. Family businesses writ large definitely don't have a good reputation as far as their non-relative workers are concerned. At least with a megacorporation you can expect some guardrails that will limit their abuses.
megacorporation you can expect some guardrails that will limit their abuses
i would not expect that tbh but yeah megacorps are serious about managing their liability, they will generally avoid crime unless they can get away with it.
most small biz owners are too stupid to understand liability so they just do as they please which is generally either a crime or breach of various civil laws and regulations.
Agreed in pricipal because family businesses are frequently how knowledge is passed from generation to generation, but family and small businesses can also exploit and not protect children and still need oversight on safety.
Let kids focus on their studies. We need a better educated population, not one where people are trained to work mindless jobs where corporations pay you the least amount possible.
Work is a practical teacher of the value of money, how to work together with people, and how to deal with an actual meaningful authority structure.
School has no way to teach the first, does not realistically teach the second, and makes any lessons with respect to the third meaningless between "no kid left behind", the countless second chance opportunities given for breaking rules, and the fact that there's no effective punishments offered for breaking rules.
I think many issues with young people (including my age and a little older) is that a lot of them don't work until after highschool and have massive struggles with the transition of both having to work and being treated as an adult at the same time.
Between all the progressive ideals that have been forced down our throats over the past few decades and it becoming socially unacceptable to do things like smoke and drink at work, I'd say we work in some of least toxic work cultures to date.
Toxic work culture also means dishonest management expectations, wage theft, and generally anti-employee policies.
For example, around 2-3 years ago I heard a fun story about why my old employer lost 3/4 of their IT team(MSP, their product was IT folks). The straw that broke the camel's back was a management partner asking an employee "are you letting your family get in the way of your job?" This was because they couldn't get this person to work overtime on the spot because they weren't going to leave their kid's sports game.
At that same employer, about 7 years ago, I was told I would have to start my day at the customer's job site at or before 8AM, and I wouldn't be compensated for my travel time because "everyone has a commute, buddy". Problem was, my customers were often over an hour away, and they were going to bill the customer for my travel time anyway.
There's certainly still toxic work cultures, and while I am glad you seemingly haven't had to experience it as much recently, you shouldn't discount other's struggles just because you aren't experiencing the same thing.
How about having a controversial debate about how much companies, corporations and business owners should pay employees in any job in order to make it so that everyone is capable of paying to keep themselves alive, fulfilled and happy.
do they also get paid at the same standard(minimum wage, benefit, etc) like other worker?
do they also get CPP/EI contribution from employer? And can they take EI benefit when laid off?
do they also get to contribute to RRSP/TFSA? TFSA is after 18 currently, so they can't even save their wage compare to other adult workers.
when they do perform well, will they get evaluated and promoted the same way? ie, a 15 yo manager at fast food chain and paid the same wage as a manager.
I would have, but my first minimum wage-type job was after high school. I didn't make enough to pay into CPP, but I don't know if that's a universal truth for younger workers or just because I didn't work more than 10 hours a week.
Also fun fact, going back go my original comment about wage: Saskatchewan's October increase to its general minimum wage won't catch up to Ontario's current student wage. Things are cheaper here, yes, but things aren't (much if any) cheaper in Saskatoon or Regina than in London.
I'm probably not the best person to ask. I've never lived in Regina, but from visiting it's similar to Saskatoon, except it has a man-made lake instead of a nice river valley. It's a nice enough city, but it's also clearly a government town. As for London, I've never been. I have family there, and part of my family moved to Saskatchewan from London over 100 years ago.
"We clearly haven't made the working class desperate enough yet. Let's have immigrants and students fight over jobs to make everything even nastier!"
I'm sure this won't in any way result in a huge cohort of angry underemployed young people. No siree.
I'm also starting to think that businesspeople aren't the Galtian ubermenchen that they think they are, given that they by and large can't plan more than six months in advance.
50+ years ago when I was 12, I got my first job at an ice cream/burger stand making 0.75 cents per hour. The only downside was my creepy old boss who took great joy in pinching my non-existent breasts and child-sized ass.
2 yrs later I started working at the local pizza joint (legal age to work was 14 back then).
The real problem these days is owners who would abuse the privilege of having kids work for them. I mean you just know that's gonna happen, esp under Shmoe's 'leadership'.
That is fucked, but I think workers of all ages can be exploited. In my case, working a few different jobs from age 13 to 15 alerted me early to the exploitative behaviour of employers, and I've been very diligent in asserting my federal, state, and contractual rights in employment ever since, and to help and insist that co-workers do too.
In fact, I think this lesson is best learned by child workers, because at that age, the value of the lesson is high, and the potential stakes of asserting ones rights are low, EG as a child, if the child is sacked for asserting their rights, they only lose their pocket money. As an adult out in the wild, this could mean risking their income which pays for rent, family, bills, and other critical expenses.
I think you forget that women and children still don't have enough power, at any age, to deny any man what he wants. They still die doing that, or are beaten within an inch of their lives, or are fired/written up for refusing sexual advances, or are put in situations where they've received no training but have to run a dangerous machine anyway.
That is not something any child should 'have' to learn.
How about instead we crack down on the businesses that do shit like that ... maybe 1st offense they lose their business ... 2nd offense they lose their life.
I was cutting grass at 12 years old on the weekends during school year and then summer time washed cars and cut grass. Only did it until I was 14, where I got a part-time job as a bagger and cart pusher at a grocery store. Don't see a problem with it.
I was working summer jobs doing farm labour since before I was a teenager (and I'm not that old), so I'm gonna say that it's fine that 13 year olds are working.
I also had to do farm labour (picking fruit) before I was legally allowed to work at 14. I was taken advantage of (financially) that whole summer - underpaid, and occasionally worked an entire day and got stiffed outright. I've never stopped working since then (I'm in my early 50s), aside from a few months of unemployment between jobs that was more stressful than working. I'll likely have to work until I die.
Fuck that shit.
My kids are 18 and 20 and as long as they're in school, it can stay that way. Once you start, you don't stop. I'll let them enjoy it as long as they can.
I was working summer jobs doing farm labour since before I was a teenager (and I’m not that old), so I’m gonna say that it’s fine that 13 year olds are working.
So, based on your summertime work, it's okay for kids to work year-round?
Kids already worked in the mines when they were 5 or 6. We should regress to these great time so that the GDP can continue to grow, and shitty employers can continue to pay poverty wages.
I worked at a farm around 12-13 saved enough to quit and buy my first computer, it was awesome. Then 13-14 working at a convienence store. I don't see an issue working, you learn the actual value of time and money without ma and pa paying for everything. By very early 20s, I owned my own house, cars, motorcycles etc. Kids going from only school life to full time career have a terrible time adjusting to whar that life change is
What exploitation angle? I was paid the same minimum wage an adult would get. And as a kid that spent tons of time outdoors with friends, exploring nature, kayaking etc, it really didn't cut into that, as you were done your shift and still had 5-6 hours of daylight to enjoy the summer. If I wasn't working I would have wasted that time warching rerun cartoons, you can only swim so much in the pool so much before your skin prunes. lol
Oh, I know it happens in places, as forced labour, or poor families needing children to work. But I see it as a bonus if your are just a willing participant and paid the equivalent wages. And other countries people have gone into their tradeschool by 16. NA has a delayed entry into real life
All good points, thanks for presenting them. My kids did the sport and volunteer route too, two of them chose to work after graduating highschool, but the other two chose to start early one at 11 delivering papers and the other at 13. They were both open and would alert us if any exploitation was happening, but I recognize some kids may not have the skills. My one daughter found working very enjoyable, a sense of purpose and earning their own paycheck. Annecdotally it set her ahead in life, at 20 she had saved enough and was able to buy an apartment in metro Vancouver...if you know prices here you can see how that is a huge achievement, she still had time for school, friends, movies and sports. For myself I would find that too busy, but some people enjoy it.
74 Comments
bionicjoey@lemmy.ca · 82 pts · 2y
The children yearn for the mines
sunzu@kbin.run · 20 pts · 2y
Builds character and healths issues
folkrav@lemmy.ca · 44 pts · 2y
Too young for the concept of doing work in exchange for something? No, I don’t think so. There’s no minimum age to learn how to do something, for the most part, if the interest is there.
However, those lower-wage jobs tend to be where a lot of the worker rights abuse tends to happen, and I absolutely think it’s way too young for them to realize if/when it’s happening, or to be in a position to properly defend themselves if they do. Sure, parental guidance and all, but let’s say my experience working with all kinds of parents in day camps, as a ski instructor and in elementary schools, didn’t make me very optimistic about a lot of them really being in a position to protect their children at work.
I’ve also honestly yet to really see it happening where it has 0 impact on their schooling, but that’s rather anecdotal…
Icalasari@fedia.io · 8 pts · 2y
Plus it is going to most affect families too poor to speak up and children of abusive parents who would force them to work
Omega_Jimes@lemmy.ca · 38 pts · 2y
Is 13 to young to work? Is 65 too early to retire? Are you spending too much time on hobbies?
I want to leave this planet.
TwoBeeSan@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
Isn't a baby playing with blocks them showing their want to work?
Subscribe to my LinkedIn for more astute money making tips!
Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca · 27 pts · 2y
Should vulnerable members of our society be exploited?
Ransack@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 2y
The vulnerable are already being exploited. Now they're thinking about the children.
MapleEngineer@lemmy.ca · 24 pts · 2y
I started working full time during the summer the year I turned 13. I was working for my family's company and my safety was always the most important thing.
In the current environment of the exploration of workers I feel that it is unacceptable for children to work for any company other than a family company or a small company that will not exploit them and that will protect them.
sunzu@kbin.run · 16 pts · 2y
Cute that you believe this
nyan@lemmy.cafe · 15 pts · 2y
Small companies vary widely in their morals. The best ones might indeed protect and teach, rather than exploit, a young worker. The worst ones . . . are worse than any large company, and you can't always tell from outside which type you've got. And family companies can be just as bad as any other small company, alas.
sunzu@kbin.run · 2 pts · 2y
I am sure some employees of mega corps also happy with their treatment too
The point being is that it is an exception to the general savagery of "legal persons"
MapleEngineer@lemmy.ca · -6 pts · 2y
It's got to be stressful to be so cynical. I'm sorry.
cygnus@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 2y
Remember that this was YOUR family's company. Family businesses writ large definitely don't have a good reputation as far as their non-relative workers are concerned. At least with a megacorporation you can expect some guardrails that will limit their abuses.
MapleEngineer@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2y
Like the mega corporations that have children cleaning equipment at night in abattoirs?
sunzu@kbin.run · 2 pts · 2y
i would not expect that tbh but yeah megacorps are serious about managing their liability, they will generally avoid crime unless they can get away with it.
most small biz owners are too stupid to understand liability so they just do as they please which is generally either a crime or breach of various civil laws and regulations.
sunzu@kbin.run · 1 pts · 2y
At least I know who I am deal with and able to fight the good fight
It is a lot harder being fucked while living a delusion IMHO
MapleEngineer@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 2y
You seem really dedicated to being miserable. That really sucks for you.
sunzu@kbin.run · 1 pts · 2y
MapleEngineer@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 2y
So much anger. It must really eat you up inside. I'm sorry that you're like this. It's got to be very stressful.
sunzu@kbin.run · 1 pts · 2y
snooggums@midwest.social · 13 pts · 2y
Agreed in pricipal because family businesses are frequently how knowledge is passed from generation to generation, but family and small businesses can also exploit and not protect children and still need oversight on safety.
mister_newbie@sh.itjust.works · 18 pts · 2y
Keep that US bullshit out of this country!
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 2y
You may need to understand the American influence that caused the backlash among the WestJet mechanics with their strike, this week.
mister_newbie@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 2y
I'm fully aware of the backlash. It's DISGUSTING. Scabs should be run out of town and forced to live destitute.
buddascrayon@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
This seems too nuanced for a simple Google search. Can you please explain. Any links would be appreciated.
buddascrayon@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 2y
"labour shortage"
When adults are sick and tired of being paid peanuts to work a back breaking 40 to 50 hour job.
Corporations: So why not look to children who are too inexperienced to understand how much their labour is really worth...?
alienanimals@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 2y
Billionaires don't work. Why should children?
Let kids focus on their studies. We need a better educated population, not one where people are trained to work mindless jobs where corporations pay you the least amount possible.
Adderbox76@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 2y
Conservative politics don't poll well with educated people. An educated population is the very last thing Shmoe needs
northmaple1984@lemmy.ca · -7 pts · 2y
Work is a practical teacher of the value of money, how to work together with people, and how to deal with an actual meaningful authority structure.
School has no way to teach the first, does not realistically teach the second, and makes any lessons with respect to the third meaningless between "no kid left behind", the countless second chance opportunities given for breaking rules, and the fact that there's no effective punishments offered for breaking rules.
I think many issues with young people (including my age and a little older) is that a lot of them don't work until after highschool and have massive struggles with the transition of both having to work and being treated as an adult at the same time.
Croquette@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2y
Maybe the issue is the fucking terrible toxic work culture and not the fact that young people are starting to work later in life?
northmaple1984@lemmy.ca · -4 pts · 2y
Between all the progressive ideals that have been forced down our throats over the past few decades and it becoming socially unacceptable to do things like smoke and drink at work, I'd say we work in some of least toxic work cultures to date.
GrundlButter@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 2y
Toxic work culture also means dishonest management expectations, wage theft, and generally anti-employee policies.
For example, around 2-3 years ago I heard a fun story about why my old employer lost 3/4 of their IT team(MSP, their product was IT folks). The straw that broke the camel's back was a management partner asking an employee "are you letting your family get in the way of your job?" This was because they couldn't get this person to work overtime on the spot because they weren't going to leave their kid's sports game.
At that same employer, about 7 years ago, I was told I would have to start my day at the customer's job site at or before 8AM, and I wouldn't be compensated for my travel time because "everyone has a commute, buddy". Problem was, my customers were often over an hour away, and they were going to bill the customer for my travel time anyway.
There's certainly still toxic work cultures, and while I am glad you seemingly haven't had to experience it as much recently, you shouldn't discount other's struggles just because you aren't experiencing the same thing.
Croquette@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2y
If you step on a small sack of shit or a slightly smaller sack of shit, your shoes still smell like shit.
In the US, wage theft is fucking big, the biggest part of the pie in its category.
In the current work culture, your employer will try to fuck you over if that means they get a cent more.
orcrist@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 2y
Kichae@lemmy.ca · 16 pts · 2y
"Are 13 year olds too young to exploit monetarily?""Are 13 year olds too young to take on the glorious privilege of earning their own money?"
Hey look, it's propaganda in action, right there on the CBC.
OttoVonNoob@lemmy.ca · 19 pts · 2y
left: Are they allowed to vote then?
Right: hell no!!!
Arkouda@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 2y
Was it hard to quote the actual headline or is it a matter of making the narrative you are attempting to push stronger?
Reading the article helps as well.
Phil_in_here@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2y
Remember, it's only bad when "The Media" does it.
ininewcrow@lemmy.ca · 15 pts · 2y
How about having a controversial debate about how much companies, corporations and business owners should pay employees in any job in order to make it so that everyone is capable of paying to keep themselves alive, fulfilled and happy.
PenguinTD@lemmy.ca · 14 pts · 2y
okay, let me ask the real question:
rand_alpha19@moist.catsweat.com · 12 pts · 2y
PenguinTD@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 2y
Exactly, without proper protection and equality for same performance/quality of work, it's just pure exploitation.
dankm@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 2y
Since this post is about Saskatchewan, I'll add that Saskatchewan doesn't have a student wage, just one minimum wage.
It also happens to be about $1.20 less than Ontario's student wage. I like my province, but man does it have its issues.
rand_alpha19@moist.catsweat.com · 2 pts · 2y
dankm@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2y
I would have, but my first minimum wage-type job was after high school. I didn't make enough to pay into CPP, but I don't know if that's a universal truth for younger workers or just because I didn't work more than 10 hours a week.
Also fun fact, going back go my original comment about wage: Saskatchewan's October increase to its general minimum wage won't catch up to Ontario's current student wage. Things are cheaper here, yes, but things aren't (much if any) cheaper in Saskatoon or Regina than in London.
rand_alpha19@moist.catsweat.com · 1 pts · 2y
dankm@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2y
I'm probably not the best person to ask. I've never lived in Regina, but from visiting it's similar to Saskatoon, except it has a man-made lake instead of a nice river valley. It's a nice enough city, but it's also clearly a government town. As for London, I've never been. I have family there, and part of my family moved to Saskatchewan from London over 100 years ago.
sunzu@kbin.run · 14 pts · 2y
Look guys Canada is doing America again
Why would these little turds NOT make daddy some mother fucking money tho?
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 2y
Schooling is mandatory until 18. Any other activity has to not interfere with that. Beyond that, do what ye will.
rozodru@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 2y
psvrh@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 2y
"We clearly haven't made the working class desperate enough yet. Let's have immigrants and students fight over jobs to make everything even nastier!"
I'm sure this won't in any way result in a huge cohort of angry underemployed young people. No siree.
I'm also starting to think that businesspeople aren't the Galtian ubermenchen that they think they are, given that they by and large can't plan more than six months in advance.
Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net · 7 pts · 2y
C'mon! Those are rookie numbers! Look at these kids living their best life and getting the best experiences; not a screen in sight!
https://www.eatstayplaybeaufort.com/youve-probably-seen-this-photo-but-do-you-know-the-story-behind-it/
girlfreddy@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 2y
50+ years ago when I was 12, I got my first job at an ice cream/burger stand making 0.75 cents per hour. The only downside was my creepy old boss who took great joy in pinching my non-existent breasts and child-sized ass.
2 yrs later I started working at the local pizza joint (legal age to work was 14 back then).
The real problem these days is owners who would abuse the privilege of having kids work for them. I mean you just know that's gonna happen, esp under Shmoe's 'leadership'.
Agent641@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 2y
That is fucked, but I think workers of all ages can be exploited. In my case, working a few different jobs from age 13 to 15 alerted me early to the exploitative behaviour of employers, and I've been very diligent in asserting my federal, state, and contractual rights in employment ever since, and to help and insist that co-workers do too.
In fact, I think this lesson is best learned by child workers, because at that age, the value of the lesson is high, and the potential stakes of asserting ones rights are low, EG as a child, if the child is sacked for asserting their rights, they only lose their pocket money. As an adult out in the wild, this could mean risking their income which pays for rent, family, bills, and other critical expenses.
girlfreddy@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2y
I think you forget that women and children still don't have enough power, at any age, to deny any man what he wants. They still die doing that, or are beaten within an inch of their lives, or are fired/written up for refusing sexual advances, or are put in situations where they've received no training but have to run a dangerous machine anyway.
That is not something any child should 'have' to learn.
How about instead we crack down on the businesses that do shit like that ... maybe 1st offense they lose their business ... 2nd offense they lose their life.
chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
I delivered the newspaper when I was 13. Is that such an alien idea? I used the money to buy my first computer.
alyth@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
dojan@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
At this rate society isn’t worth preserving.
StaySquared@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 2y
I was cutting grass at 12 years old on the weekends during school year and then summer time washed cars and cut grass. Only did it until I was 14, where I got a part-time job as a bagger and cart pusher at a grocery store. Don't see a problem with it.
Edit: I'm from the U.S. though.
northmaple1984@lemmy.ca · -3 pts · 2y
I was working summer jobs doing farm labour since before I was a teenager (and I'm not that old), so I'm gonna say that it's fine that 13 year olds are working.
dgilbert@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 2y
I also had to do farm labour (picking fruit) before I was legally allowed to work at 14. I was taken advantage of (financially) that whole summer - underpaid, and occasionally worked an entire day and got stiffed outright. I've never stopped working since then (I'm in my early 50s), aside from a few months of unemployment between jobs that was more stressful than working. I'll likely have to work until I die.
Fuck that shit.
My kids are 18 and 20 and as long as they're in school, it can stay that way. Once you start, you don't stop. I'll let them enjoy it as long as they can.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 2y
So right.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 2y
So, based on your summertime work, it's okay for kids to work year-round?
northmaple1984@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2y
I also worked for the Parks and Rec department of the city where I grew up throughout the school year, startinf when I was 14 or 15... So yes?
Croquette@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 2y
Kids already worked in the mines when they were 5 or 6. We should regress to these great time so that the GDP can continue to grow, and shitty employers can continue to pay poverty wages.
northmaple1984@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2y
I mean, Minecraft is one of the most popular games in the world... Maybe the kids are trying to tell us something
Croquette@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2y
Yeah, they like to play games, not work at Tim Hortons.
BCsven@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2y
I worked at a farm around 12-13 saved enough to quit and buy my first computer, it was awesome. Then 13-14 working at a convienence store. I don't see an issue working, you learn the actual value of time and money without ma and pa paying for everything. By very early 20s, I owned my own house, cars, motorcycles etc. Kids going from only school life to full time career have a terrible time adjusting to whar that life change is
orcrist@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 2y
BCsven@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 2y
What exploitation angle? I was paid the same minimum wage an adult would get. And as a kid that spent tons of time outdoors with friends, exploring nature, kayaking etc, it really didn't cut into that, as you were done your shift and still had 5-6 hours of daylight to enjoy the summer. If I wasn't working I would have wasted that time warching rerun cartoons, you can only swim so much in the pool so much before your skin prunes. lol
orcrist@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 2y
BCsven@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 2y
Oh, I know it happens in places, as forced labour, or poor families needing children to work. But I see it as a bonus if your are just a willing participant and paid the equivalent wages. And other countries people have gone into their tradeschool by 16. NA has a delayed entry into real life
orcrist@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 2y
BCsven@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2y
All good points, thanks for presenting them. My kids did the sport and volunteer route too, two of them chose to work after graduating highschool, but the other two chose to start early one at 11 delivering papers and the other at 13. They were both open and would alert us if any exploitation was happening, but I recognize some kids may not have the skills. My one daughter found working very enjoyable, a sense of purpose and earning their own paycheck. Annecdotally it set her ahead in life, at 20 she had saved enough and was able to buy an apartment in metro Vancouver...if you know prices here you can see how that is a huge achievement, she still had time for school, friends, movies and sports. For myself I would find that too busy, but some people enjoy it.