Many Lemmy instances are actually configured so that any time you upload an image file, it gets automatically converted to a WebP, so as to take up less server space. Your instance (lemmy.sdf.org) is the only Lemmy instance that I have experience with that instead actually works in the opposite direction: unless something has changed recently, if you attempt to upload a WebP file to that instance, it automatically gets converted to PNG. This behaviour is all up to how the instance admin chooses to configure their pict-rs backend.
What modern software does not support it? Sometimes animated images are only rendered as a static image of the first frame of the animation, but it is fairly universally supported nowadays.
When I started contributing to joinfediversewiki, all my screenshot uploads failed... until I wondered if it was because they were in Webp. Fortunately the site admin added it to the approved formats for me.
Also my (formerly) preferred screenshot tool, Ksnip, doesn't handle Webp.
fuck webp. in-fact fuck all the new corpo sponsored standards.
there was nothing wrong with png, gif, or jpg.
tinfoil hat time. all the new corpo sponsored web standards exist for one purpose, to control the development of the internet so that the corpo-overlords can continue pumping users for "value".
You got to at least like avif. Both in lossless and lossy mode it’s better than the formats from the 90s. It’s community run, patent free, faster, higher quality, and well supported.
WebP is super useful. I developed an offline hiking map app and it contained 900MB of PNG map tiles. Way too huge for a mobile app. I converted them to WebP and now they take 50MB while looking the same. It's amazing.
WebP is definitely not a perfect solution, but GIF is absolutely full of problems. The only thing that GIF has going for it is the fact that it is universally supported by just about everything everywhere. But the two big problems are the fact that it is limited to 256 colors and is incredibly inefficient at compression. Those two facts combined mean that any given image in GIF format has a drastically higher file size than that same image in WebP, AVIF, JPEG-XL, APNG, or any other modern animated image format, while likely still having a worse image quality.
I am hoping to see AVIF more widely adopted/supported, because GIF is definitely bloated and ready to die.
gifs load as images while avifs load as videos, because that's what they are. Imagine the resources used when loading a page with 2000 avifs and you have autoplay videos enabled on your browser.
gifs on the other hand, load one frame at a time and just cycle through each frame after they have loaded.
I think theoretically, avif is a better solution but the applicability of them is going to be difficult to apply unilaterally like gifs.
In what way do AVIF files "load as videos"? They are image files. Your web browser renders them as images. Your Lemmy client renders them as images. It is not AVI.
So, your app doesn't support those particular file types. Great. We have already established that support for things other than GIF needs to be improved. That is an entirely separate issue. The question remains: In what way do AVIF files “load as videos”?
I think they can be a little more complex than that. When creating a GIF in GIMP, there is a function to "Optimize" which gets rid of redundant pixels that are the exact same on multiple frames (or something like that). Whatever it does, it definitely reduces the final file size. Any time I make an animation that has to be a GIF file for whatever reason, I try to make it in GIMP to make use of that feature.
GIF uses transparency to overlay a frame over the previous one, so colors for the unchanged pixels can be collapsed to the transparent color to get better compression.
Of course, this is rather primitive compared to anything invented since MPEG-2.
60 Comments
neuracnu@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 95 pts · 179d
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 6 pts · 179d
This was definitely accurate at one point, but is not representive of reality today.
BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org · 13 pts · 179d
It’s still my experience most times. I’m always quite surprised when some site that isn’t Google accepts a webp.
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 3 pts · 179d
Many Lemmy instances are actually configured so that any time you upload an image file, it gets automatically converted to a WebP, so as to take up less server space. Your instance (lemmy.sdf.org) is the only Lemmy instance that I have experience with that instead actually works in the opposite direction: unless something has changed recently, if you attempt to upload a WebP file to that instance, it automatically gets converted to PNG. This behaviour is all up to how the instance admin chooses to configure their pict-rs backend.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 179d
No... No this is still accurate.
FosterMolasses@leminal.space · 1 pts · 179d
Hahahahaha
MadMadBunny@lemmy.ca · 62 pts · 179d
Webp isn’t better. Its support is awful. Geordy would know that.
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 9 pts · 179d
What modern software does not support it? Sometimes animated images are only rendered as a static image of the first frame of the animation, but it is fairly universally supported nowadays.
MadMadBunny@lemmy.ca · 34 pts · 179d
This, along with editing, converting is a pain, lots of 3rd party apps, websites, and forms do not support uploading them etc.
It barely has better support, but by a couple of hairs, and only half-assed at best.
klu9@piefed.social · 9 pts · 179d
When I started contributing to joinfediversewiki, all my screenshot uploads failed... until I wondered if it was because they were in Webp. Fortunately the site admin added it to the approved formats for me.
Also my (formerly) preferred screenshot tool, Ksnip, doesn't handle Webp.
EncryptKeeper@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 178d
iMessage does not support animated webp images.
lazynooblet@lazysoci.al · 32 pts · 179d
btsax@reddthat.com · 20 pts · 179d
Yeah, let's just hand over even more of the Internet to Google. Great idea
flying_sheep@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 179d
Lolwat. It's an image format, not some snooping -adjacent web tech or something.
kieron115@startrek.website · 5 pts · 179d
not yet! (/s)
Xylight@lemdro.id · 19 pts · 179d
AVIF is also great! if for some reason you don't like webp because google makes it, AVIF uses AV1 which is an open codec.
it's also much smaller. great for web graphics
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 179d
fuck webp. in-fact fuck all the new corpo sponsored standards.
there was nothing wrong with png, gif, or jpg.
tinfoil hat time. all the new corpo sponsored web standards exist for one purpose, to control the development of the internet so that the corpo-overlords can continue pumping users for "value".
lepinkainen@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 179d
Webp wouldn’t be a thing if not for Google using it’s monopoly to push it on people
mholiv@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 179d
You got to at least like avif. Both in lossless and lossy mode it’s better than the formats from the 90s. It’s community run, patent free, faster, higher quality, and well supported.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 179d
what corporate entity submitted the RFC?
mholiv@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 179d
I mean if that’s your standard you need to drop quite a bit more.
PNG was submitted by Boutell.Com, Inc (now doing payday loans)
GIF was submitted by Compuserve Inc.
JPEG was (in its original form) was by C-Cube Microsystems, Inc
Avif is an open source, royalty free, better format administrated by a non profit.
Companies (including Netflix) should be encouraged to contribute to the community under such standards.
Open source, royalty free, better formats, administrated by a non profit Is the goal.
dev_null@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 179d
WebP is super useful. I developed an offline hiking map app and it contained 900MB of PNG map tiles. Way too huge for a mobile app. I converted them to WebP and now they take 50MB while looking the same. It's amazing.
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 1 pts · 178d
WebP is definitely not a perfect solution, but GIF is absolutely full of problems. The only thing that GIF has going for it is the fact that it is universally supported by just about everything everywhere. But the two big problems are the fact that it is limited to 256 colors and is incredibly inefficient at compression. Those two facts combined mean that any given image in GIF format has a drastically higher file size than that same image in WebP, AVIF, JPEG-XL, APNG, or any other modern animated image format, while likely still having a worse image quality.
I am hoping to see AVIF more widely adopted/supported, because GIF is definitely bloated and ready to die.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 178d
gifs load as images while avifs load as videos, because that's what they are. Imagine the resources used when loading a page with 2000 avifs and you have autoplay videos enabled on your browser.
gifs on the other hand, load one frame at a time and just cycle through each frame after they have loaded.
I think theoretically, avif is a better solution but the applicability of them is going to be difficult to apply unilaterally like gifs.
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 0 pts · 178d
In what way do AVIF files "load as videos"? They are image files. Your web browser renders them as images. Your Lemmy client renders them as images. It is not AVI.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 178d
wish I could screenshot what I see. because it's just two "OBJ" tiles.
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 1 pts · 178d
So, your app doesn't support those particular file types. Great. We have already established that support for things other than GIF needs to be improved. That is an entirely separate issue. The question remains: In what way do AVIF files “load as videos”?
tehfishman@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 178d
A comedy in two parts
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 178d
obinice@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 179d
And yet, surprisingly, I can often get a gif down to a smaller file size and better image quality than a webp file.
Still, there's hope for it yet if it improves!
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 8 pts · 179d
I would have to see that to believe it
Baguette@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 179d
Aren't gifs just each individual frame bundled together? So there's no space saving with a gif without reducing resolution
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 2 pts · 179d
I think they can be a little more complex than that. When creating a GIF in GIMP, there is a function to "Optimize" which gets rid of redundant pixels that are the exact same on multiple frames (or something like that). Whatever it does, it definitely reduces the final file size. Any time I make an animation that has to be a GIF file for whatever reason, I try to make it in GIMP to make use of that feature.
https://docs.gimp.org/3.0/en/plug-in-optimize.html
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 179d
GIF uses transparency to overlay a frame over the previous one, so colors for the unchanged pixels can be collapsed to the transparent color to get better compression.
Of course, this is rather primitive compared to anything invented since MPEG-2.
Baguette@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 179d
Huh the more you know
Always thought gif was essentially implemented as a slideshow and that modern codecs implement all the space saving that gif doesn't
Toes@ani.social · 13 pts · 179d
avif is the superior format to webp. 💝
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 4 pts · 179d
That was pretty simple. And even much smaller than the equivalent WebP
lastweakness@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 179d
Is this meant to be animated? I guess summit doesn't support it if so
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 1 pts · 179d
It's definitely animated in a web browser and Voyager. It seems to just be a still image in Summit and Jerboa.
And in Thunder, it is sometimes animated, but sometimes displays as just a still image. I cannot figure out why
lastweakness@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 179d
Unfortunate, but it also highlights an issue with these hybrid formats.
KiwiTB@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 179d
This.
quediuspayu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 12 pts · 179d
I don't trust webp. I don't like its name.
Look at me! The web will now use my picture standard.
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 8 pts · 179d
You don't enjoy website piss? Why? It's sterile and refreshing!
quediuspayu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 179d
I don't know what is worse, warm piss or cold piss.
And I don't wanna know.
SatyrSack@quokk.au · 3 pts · 179d
Regarding its name: I had no idea until today that the B is silent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebP
Cybersec@piefed.social · 12 pts · 179d
Oh god, another image file name war? “We pee” love it that’s great, now it’ll get traction for sure, ha.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 179d
It's pronounced vepp.
ken@discuss.tchncs.de · 11 pts · 179d
Experimental JPEG-XL support in Firefox (and forks) can be enabled by setting the pref
image.jxl.enabledtotruein about:config.https://jpegxl.info/resources/jpeg-xl-test-page.html
AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 179d
And why does it have to be experimental anyway? It's been supported by everything that uses the standard libraries in Linux for quite some time.
GarboDog@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 179d
qjkxbmwvz@startrek.website · 6 pts · 179d
Obligatory jwz take on webp.
negativenull@piefed.world · 6 pts · 179d
Voyager on Android works, Firefox (and variants) all seem to work.
lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 179d
Will this settle the gif/jif debate once and for all?
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 179d
Gif is pronounced like gorilla or giraffe or is not hard
Lysergid@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 179d
svg is da way
PodPerson@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 178d
SVG is a vector format that’s completely inappropriate for photographic-type stuff.
kat_angstrom@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 179d
What about j2k?
klu9@piefed.social · 1 pts · 179d
Still waiting for DjVu support...
Thebeardedsinglemalt@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 179d
What about gifv
AffineConnection@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 179d
gifv is not a format. It's just Imgur pretending that a MP4 file is something different.