Yeah, that sort of depends on the level of physics you're talking about. regardless, it's still a property of stuff even if that stuff is not always matter. if you want to go off on the weeds on that, go for it.
even so, energy is not something that exists, but a quantified attribute of things that do exist.
Mass distorts spacetime because that's a thing that mass does, we can't explain it any better than we can explain WHY apples fall from trees, we just have very detailed models for. HOW it works, and anything that has energy bends spacetime in the same way that mass does.
the simple forms of conservation you probably learned in school are not entirely accurate. you probably learned that neither energy not matter can be created or destroyed; whatever you do, the mass you begin with will be the same as the mass you end with, and the same is true, separately, for energy. that's not actually true; mass can be converted into energy, and vice versa. the correct form of conservation is that the combined mass-energy is constant. mass can be destroyed, but only if a proportional amount of energy is created. the coefficient of that proportionality is the square of the speed of light. that's what E=mc² means. that's how nuclear weapons work, and why they're so powerful. c² is obviously a pretty big value, so when a small amount of matter is destroyed, it creates a large amount of energy
similarly, energy can be converted into mass, but doing so makes it much "smaller." c² units of energy will become 1 unit of mass. and mass, of course, interacts with space-time
Mass is a property of matter, they're not the same thing.
A water molecule is the same matter as two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen, yet the molecule has less mass. The difference comes from the energy released when the molecule is formed. Fusion is the same, forcing two atoms together releases a neutron with lots of energy. Same matter, less mass.
It's the opposite with fission. One atom splits into two and two really fast neutrons, and the total mass is less than the original atom. The matter isn't destroyed, but some of its mass is converted into energy.
Matter can be destroyed by annihilating it with antimatter, but that hardly counts because we have to make the antimatter by turning energy back into mass and that also creates an equal amount of matter.
What I never understood is why the electric field doesn't distort spacetime more than gravity. The force between 2 electrons is like 4*10^42 times stronger than gravity. So a tiny electric field should cause the same spacetime bending as a massive object.
True. The em field is significantly more energetic, meaning that it contributes more to the stress energy tensor than the force of gravity
But recall that the force of gravity is the momentum change “due to” the curvature of spacetime. The fact that the force of gravity can bend spacetime at all is a really weird second-order perturbative effect.
These perturbative effects are typically described with a quantum field theory, but gravity has been thus far notably difficult to quantize.
Not really that simple. Is EM curving space time? Yes. But it does it in a very different way. EM is a force which couples to charges, magnetism, transferred by light. Gravity is a completely different beast. Super weak, but couples to everything. Mass? Yeah. Massless particles (light)? Yeah. The interraction strength itself is not an indication on how it affects the curvature of space (well, EM as a gauge theory is a curvature of a mathematical space, but gravity is one of physical space).
As far as I know, none of the observed black holes (like in LIGO) have ever observed something that would be a charged black hole, but there is the theoretical formulation of one called a Reissner Nordström black hole. In that formulation you can see how adding charge and mass acts differently. For one thing, EM charge can be negative and positive, but either sign affects the spacetime the same, in a very simple way: the square of the charge appears in the expression. But mass only appears linear. Just as an example of how they play a very different role when it comes to curvature.
I'm not sure what your definition of experimental proof is. There have been many experiments to test General Relativity over the past 100 years. As far as I know none of those experiments have found significant disagreement with the theory.
It is an older paper, but aftet a skim the only significant missing experiment is LIGO. At the scales which GR is fundamentally concerned we simply do not have sufficient data or technology to test.
If we had tested everything that could be for GR or it had no contraditions we wouldn't be creating modified theories of gravity or proposing new constants to try solve things, or trying to come up with some quantum theory of gravity.
Or actually do calculus but screw that let's just speculate that a photon having a lessr infinite energy is equivalent to a lower speed of light. Therefore space has shrunk or time has expanded or the opposite or whatever.
I'd like to point out that it is suggested that information influences spacetime, too. That is, your RAM gains mass as soon as you boot your computer. It bends spacetime a tiny bit more if information is stored on it. So every trait of matter within spacetime turns out to be interconvertible:
More craziness: In expanded spacetime, the amount of information on your RAM is decreased. With the energy you're pumping in, it could store more.
Even more craziness: Information could be the foundation of spacetime, building it though quantum entanglement. (ER=EPR conjecture, Mark van Raamsdonk)
The Stress Energy Tensor is what you’re looking for. It is directly related to curvature, but beware, the explanations of both curvature and the stress-energy tensor are going to be difficult to parse if you aren’t familiar with tensors and their notation yet
Sure, dismissal and outright denial can put you in dark places, alcoholism for a lot of years, other drugs, just doing nothing. In the dark metaphorically speaking.
Quantum mechanics suggests this should be mind-blowing and enormous. We've only managed to detect 'weak static.' some are still hopeful, others are just sad.
56 Comments
AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 84d
Energy bends spacetime, just like matter. Is that what you mean?
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 4 pts · 84d
That's an important link. How does that happen ?
AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 84d
Through mass/energy equivalence, E=mc^2^. Energy distorts spacetime the same as its equivalent rest mass.
FuglyDuck@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 84d
To clarify, energy isn’t a “thing” that exists. It’s a property of matter, and so is mass.
So spacetime are only related in that matter exists in spacetime, and can influence it in ways we don’t (or at least I don’t,) really understand.
ignirtoq@feddit.online · 3 pts · 83d
Energy is not only a property of matter. Photons have energy, no mass, and are not matter but in fact force carrier particles.
FuglyDuck@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 83d
Yeah, that sort of depends on the level of physics you're talking about. regardless, it's still a property of stuff even if that stuff is not always matter. if you want to go off on the weeds on that, go for it.
even so, energy is not something that exists, but a quantified attribute of things that do exist.
MastKalandar@feddit.online · 1 pts · 83d
Thanks for that link.
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 0 pts · 83d
Anything that occupies space and has weight is matter. And yes, every matter exists in time.
RIotingPacifist@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 84d
I don't think through is the right term.
Mass distorts spacetime because that's a thing that mass does, we can't explain it any better than we can explain WHY apples fall from trees, we just have very detailed models for. HOW it works, and anything that has energy bends spacetime in the same way that mass does.
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 1 pts · 84d
Don't understand this bit.
arctanthrope@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 84d
the simple forms of conservation you probably learned in school are not entirely accurate. you probably learned that neither energy not matter can be created or destroyed; whatever you do, the mass you begin with will be the same as the mass you end with, and the same is true, separately, for energy. that's not actually true; mass can be converted into energy, and vice versa. the correct form of conservation is that the combined mass-energy is constant. mass can be destroyed, but only if a proportional amount of energy is created. the coefficient of that proportionality is the square of the speed of light. that's what E=mc² means. that's how nuclear weapons work, and why they're so powerful. c² is obviously a pretty big value, so when a small amount of matter is destroyed, it creates a large amount of energy
similarly, energy can be converted into mass, but doing so makes it much "smaller." c² units of energy will become 1 unit of mass. and mass, of course, interacts with space-time
MastKalandar@feddit.online · 1 pts · 83d
This is a very interesting theory.
too_high_for_this@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 83d
You're on the right track.
Mass is a property of matter, they're not the same thing.
A water molecule is the same matter as two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen, yet the molecule has less mass. The difference comes from the energy released when the molecule is formed. Fusion is the same, forcing two atoms together releases a neutron with lots of energy. Same matter, less mass.
It's the opposite with fission. One atom splits into two and two really fast neutrons, and the total mass is less than the original atom. The matter isn't destroyed, but some of its mass is converted into energy.
Matter can be destroyed by annihilating it with antimatter, but that hardly counts because we have to make the antimatter by turning energy back into mass and that also creates an equal amount of matter.
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · -1 pts · 83d
You explain beautifully the reason why Shakti (energy) is the Divine Consort of Shiva (the overseer of destruction) according to Vedic philosophy.
AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 84d
In plain terms, energy has gravity.
MastKalandar@feddit.online · 1 pts · 83d
Energy has gravity ??
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 84d
What I never understood is why the electric field doesn't distort spacetime more than gravity. The force between 2 electrons is like 4*10^42 times stronger than gravity. So a tiny electric field should cause the same spacetime bending as a massive object.
FrenziedFelidFanatic@pawb.social · 2 pts · 84d
It does. The energy density of the em field will contribute to the stress-energy tensor that changes the metric of spacetime.
Though the force itself is irrelevant
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 84d
But force is a measure of the rate at which energy is transferred over a distance.
So if one force is greater than another and the distance is the same, then the energy is greater in the case of the greater force.
FrenziedFelidFanatic@pawb.social · 1 pts · 84d
True. The em field is significantly more energetic, meaning that it contributes more to the stress energy tensor than the force of gravity
But recall that the force of gravity is the momentum change “due to” the curvature of spacetime. The fact that the force of gravity can bend spacetime at all is a really weird second-order perturbative effect.
These perturbative effects are typically described with a quantum field theory, but gravity has been thus far notably difficult to quantize.
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 84d
But didn't you just say that the electric field curves it too?
mumblerfish@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 83d
Not really that simple. Is EM curving space time? Yes. But it does it in a very different way. EM is a force which couples to charges, magnetism, transferred by light. Gravity is a completely different beast. Super weak, but couples to everything. Mass? Yeah. Massless particles (light)? Yeah. The interraction strength itself is not an indication on how it affects the curvature of space (well, EM as a gauge theory is a curvature of a mathematical space, but gravity is one of physical space).
As far as I know, none of the observed black holes (like in LIGO) have ever observed something that would be a charged black hole, but there is the theoretical formulation of one called a Reissner Nordström black hole. In that formulation you can see how adding charge and mass acts differently. For one thing, EM charge can be negative and positive, but either sign affects the spacetime the same, in a very simple way: the square of the charge appears in the expression. But mass only appears linear. Just as an example of how they play a very different role when it comes to curvature.
andresil@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 84d
Hartle has a very simple way of viewing this, see photo from his textbook "Introduction to General Relativity"
One thing to remember is that GR is still just a theory with a substantial lack of experimental proof, but the maths does work out quite well with it.
nnjwwl@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 84d
I'm not sure what your definition of experimental proof is. There have been many experiments to test General Relativity over the past 100 years. As far as I know none of those experiments have found significant disagreement with the theory.
andresil@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 83d
Here's a paper about testing einstein's theory:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/0806.1731
It is an older paper, but aftet a skim the only significant missing experiment is LIGO. At the scales which GR is fundamentally concerned we simply do not have sufficient data or technology to test.
If we had tested everything that could be for GR or it had no contraditions we wouldn't be creating modified theories of gravity or proposing new constants to try solve things, or trying to come up with some quantum theory of gravity.
musicalphysics@discuss.online · 0 pts · 82d
In physics theory doesn’t mean some random guess. Theory means it has been experimentally validated.
lime@feddit.nu · 7 pts · 84d
i think this is a little too vague to answer on its own
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 0 pts · 84d
Can a relationship be established between time, space and energy ?
lime@feddit.nu · 4 pts · 84d
that's the same question. and by asking it, you have established a relation. so yes!
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 1 pts · 84d
How so ?
lime@feddit.nu · 4 pts · 84d
you put the words in the same sentence, hence you have created a relation between the words.
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 0 pts · 83d
Thank you for your perspective :)))
FuglyDuck@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 84d
So Spacetimeis one thing. It’s not time and space.
Energy is a property of matter- as represented by heat and light; and measured as the capacity to extract work.
Matter does have an influence on the spacetime surrounding it, but it’s not a direct link between energy (or mass) and spacetime
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · -2 pts · 83d
This explains why the high vibrational beings are always in the form of light.
untorquer@quokk.au · 1 pts · 84d
e=mc^2
So
c=√(e/m)
Or actually do calculus but screw that let's just speculate that a photon having a lessr infinite energy is equivalent to a lower speed of light. Therefore space has shrunk or time has expanded or the opposite or whatever.
Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org · 4 pts · 84d
Yes.
Einstein has explained it with his "general relativity".
No, it is not easy enough to explain it here. Try the existing study material about the topic.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 84d
Yes.
Energy warps spacetime just like mass.
But what’s the context?
suff@piefed.social · 2 pts · 84d
I'd like to point out that it is suggested that information influences spacetime, too. That is, your RAM gains mass as soon as you boot your computer. It bends spacetime a tiny bit more if information is stored on it. So every trait of matter within spacetime turns out to be interconvertible:
Mass ⟺ Energy ⟺ Information ⟸⟹ Mass.
More craziness: In expanded spacetime, the amount of information on your RAM is decreased. With the energy you're pumping in, it could store more.
Even more craziness: Information could be the foundation of spacetime, building it though quantum entanglement. (ER=EPR conjecture, Mark van Raamsdonk)
Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org · 0 pts · 83d
If that's the case, we should start building RAM in a different way: In such a way that this isn't just a 'could' but a 'can'.
But in my theory, it isn't information. It is will power that is one the foundations, while information is just a property of will power.
suff@piefed.social · 1 pts · 83d
No, fear is.
Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org · 1 pts · 83d
But fear fears information...
suff@piefed.social · 1 pts · 83d
It's octanions all the way down anyway.
AnarchoEngineer@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 83d
The Stress Energy Tensor is what you’re looking for. It is directly related to curvature, but beware, the explanations of both curvature and the stress-energy tensor are going to be difficult to parse if you aren’t familiar with tensors and their notation yet
swab148@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 84d
Only if their parents fucked
joeljoelle@piefed.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 84d
AmidFuror@fedia.io · 4 pts · 84d
Woo boy.
joeljoelle@piefed.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 84d
Zzzzz.
MastKalandar@feddit.online · 2 pts · 84d
Wow, you described me spectacularly :)))
joeljoelle@piefed.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 84d
MastKalandar@feddit.online · 2 pts · 84d
That's a significant achievement, being comfortable with who you are. But you were in the dark for several decades ??
joeljoelle@piefed.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 84d
Sure, dismissal and outright denial can put you in dark places, alcoholism for a lot of years, other drugs, just doing nothing. In the dark metaphorically speaking.
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 0 pts · 83d
I'm not into alcohol or drugs, yet doing nothing...... That means l'm in the dark ??
joeljoelle@piefed.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 83d
I have no idea how you gleaned that from what I said. I was talking about my personal experiences and not talking about anything else.
OrangePumkin@piefed.nl · 1 pts · 82d
I meant to say that I've passed a time of 42 years, yet have done nothing.
Krusty@quokk.au · 0 pts · 84d
Space has vacuum energy or ZPE (zero point.)
Quantum mechanics suggests this should be mind-blowing and enormous. We've only managed to detect 'weak static.' some are still hopeful, others are just sad.