My wife and I have a baby and a toddler who take an absurd amount of energy every day, my wife and my family can't stand each other, so I effectively don't have an immediate family, but the catch is my wife is not a nice person.
So I've given up my family for a person who is rude, demanding, impatient, doesn't show empathy, and is extremely controlling, but shows a nice face to everyone else.
The thought of divorce makes me sick to my stomach because of how difficult of a process it is, trying to explain all the changes to my toddler, how much harder solo parenting is, and being in a marriage and a home had a ton of financial and practical benefits, but I'm just so tired and lonely and sad.
I'm in therapy and we're in couples therapy, but she started pulling away the first time the therapist challenged her so I don't have any hope for genuine change.
It's just a Groundhog day of exhaustion, loneliness, and misery, and the only person left in my life i could lean on is at the core of the problems. I'm not going to kill myself, but things are so dark right now.
30 Comments
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub · 11 pts · 30d
This is really difficult when you already have kids. I've been in a relationship like this, she was a genuine narcissist. Her consistent response to not getting what she wanted was yelling, screaming and throwing a fit for hours. I ended things before marriage or children, fortunately.
Your wife is a big part of the reason you're feeling so exhausted. If she refuses to change, or even recognize that she is causing a lot of the problems, ending it is the best choice. It will suck in the short term, but long term it will be healthier for you and your children.
Did she intentionally isolate you from your family/friends/other supportive people in your life? Because that is common behavior for an abuser.
If you really can't end the relationship, then you need to not enable the entitled behavior. This... might not be a popular take, but personally I think that an adult who behaves like a spoiled child should be treated like one. That will probably destroy any intimacy in the relationship, but it sounds like that's gone anyway.
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 30d
The problem is that things are rarely as black and white as intentional isolation. It's more like due to a million small interactions and her and my family not tolerating each other, doing what she wants, not talking to my family, etc just become the easiest option.
To be fair, she isn't all bad and I'm not all good either, i have some very poor communication habits that come out during arguments.
The real problem is that it's almost never explicit that she's the problem and our disagreements/arguments almost always end up at a disagreement about our perceptions of her tone or body language or word choice and things like that
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub · 3 pts · 29d
In my experience most people who behave this way don't do it consciously, it's just that they see other people who might have some of your affection as a threat, and react to them emotionally that way. It's not necessarily planned or intentional, and they might not be aware of it.
But, that's a supposition based on what you've said, with no direct experience of your particular situation.
This is a balanced perspective, and that's good, but it does beg the question - has she ever made you feel like you were the entire problem?
I've been right there. There is always an excuse or a reason that you are the one at fault because you misinterpreted her, and you're overreacting. This is typical behavior for a narcissist, everything is always someone else's fault.
One suggestion I've heard for situations like this is, when things are heated and emotional and something nasty gets said, make the other person stop and then repeat what they just said again, in the same words and tone, and ask them to listen to themselves. If convenient, have them do it to their reflection in a mirror. The point is to make them process the behavior consciously. To be effective, it does require that person to be partially accepting that they might be causing a problem with their behavior, and to assess themselves in good faith.
BUT, I am not a trained therapist, so maybe run that by your therapist first.
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 29d
The reason it's so damn hard to believe none of out is conscious is that she easily, rapidly identifies the exact same behavioral in her mom, and i have told her repeatedly and clearly what she is doing and examples that directly reflect those behaviors she's pointed out in her mom.
That, coupled with the fact that she is not stupid, I'd say a decent bit smarter than her mom, just makes it so hard. She either has an ENORMOUS blind spot regarding a ton of her own behavior, to the point where she is utterly incapable of analyzing her own behavior critically, or there's some degree of conscious awareness. Both are equally unacceptable in my mind.
As for the repeating stuff, I could try that, but I'm 98% sure that the moment I did, she'd repeat it how she BELIEVES she said it, which is perfectly nicely. Again, either she's utterly unaware of how nasty she is, or she does know and is lying about it.
One vaguely related fact that does support the supermassive blind spot theory is that for our entire relationship she has insisted she has curly hair. Not wavy, curly. Now, the reality is that she is a Caucasian redhead, with unambiguously straight hair, so to watch her vehemently disagree with me when we're both looking at what is to me a fact that is so obvious and undeniable, is bizarre
Strider@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 29d
Seems like you made a bad decision a long time ago.
The question is, do you want to face that or not?
pech@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 29d
Holy shit dude this sounds exactly like my marriage.
My wife leans heavily into her generational trauma/parentified child of narcissists/ADHD as reasons for why she acts the way she does. She suggests that our problems are mainly due to our different flavors of ADHD and that we don't communicate well, though I fail to see how that translates into her calling me a dick/asshole/douche or saying that I would be a "fatassed piece of shit" without her cooking.
We are also in couples therapy, on the second therapist actually because the first one "didn't do enough".
Being a father and the current liminal space my marriage occupies are the two most challenging things I've experienced in my life. I imagine it's similar for you. I'm still working up the strength to push for divorce again but am afraid.
There are two versions of outcomes (there's about a million variables but two shapes) here; you stay together, the flaws in your relationship become the template for how they think a marriage should be, which might let them slip into the same situation. Or, you separate, you work on yourself, you show your child what it means to be responsible emotionally, logistically and mentally, how people can change and make their own way.
Of course, I can be wrong; maybe my own trauma is distorting my own perception. But these are the thoughts I've been wrestling with for about a year now.
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 29d
Sounds like we're in the same boat. It almost certainly needs to happen, it's just a matter of when
pech@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 29d
In my case, I think some of the friction comes from me having a jumpstart on grieving over the marriage. Trying to talk to her about the problems usually twisted back onto me so I stopped talking and the resentment built.
I was unsure if what I was feeling/experiencing was even valid. It wasn't until I spoke to people outside of my situation that I really got my bearings.
If you need to talk or vent I'm usually around too
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 29d
Who did you talk to? Because I'm not currently talking to my family, don't have friends that I can really discuss things like this with, and I feel like therapists aren't really the correct people to determine or recommend a course of action
pech@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 29d
I started writing and recounting events or conversations that had stuck with me, kind of like a historical record "she said __, I said __", etc.
I also had cut off much of my family and don't really have friends, so I took segments of my writing and showed them to chatgpt, trying to be careful not to bias it since LLMs are prone to sycophancy. My reasoning was that they're good at pattern recognition; I wanted to see if one could be found based on my recollection of events. After a few weeks of exploring my memories/feelings and new ruptures/arguments/comments as the occurred, it told me that it sounds like I was being subjected to emotional abuse, disclaimed that it couldn't actually make that call and suggested I find a therapist.
Fortunately for me, I have one colleague who's known me for a decade, before marriage, the house and kids. I went to lunch with them and kind of laid out what had been going on and where I was at. My performance had slipped at work and it was noticed. When I told them that I was considering divorce, they didn't recoil or second-guess and it was enough of a sign for me to start my own personal therapy.
Madzielle@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 29d
By god this is awful.
We have a rule in my home, No name calling, ever. Had it established for years.
I think your advice is good. Im really bothered your wife calls you all these names, Im so sorry
pech@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 29d
Thank you, I appreciate your sympathy. 🖤
She's been better since she read some of the notes I had written about contemplating divorce/started couples therapy.
The more concerning part to me is that she still says things like "I shouldn't have called you those names, but there's two sides to this". It doesn't really read as growth or integration to me lol
glimse@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 29d
Do you want your kids to have divorced parents or do you want you kids to grow up in a loveless home with stressed out parents
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 29d
I know that's the choice, we are rapidly beginning to resemble her parents, where her dad is a shell of the awesome 80s hair metal rocker guy he used to be. He lives on the road working or doing his hobbies out in the garage
The question I've asked myself is, can I be happy ENOUGH. and I'm well aware that even asking that question is a horrible place to be
During a post-mortem on our most recent big argument, she asked me what a genuinely good day between us would look like, and my actual gut reaction was, "a day when you don't snap, or give orders, or hurt my feelings in any way". And what a pathetic place that is to be. She seemed taken aback for a minute, but nothing actually stuck, I don't think she's capable of consciously sitting with the harm she does to me
glimse@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 29d
My friend just went through this with a narcissistic partner. In his state, you have to be physically separated for a full year before you can get divorced so he got some extra time in the bargaining phase of grief - and yeah, what you're describing sounds like grieving a relationship
The answer to your question is probably no, you can't be happy enough.
bbue@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 30d
I resented my kids' mother. She ended up provoking arguments and recording me so that when we eventually went to court I looked like a monster.
Things immediately got easier when I was the one taking care of my kids. She took them and got custody when she left. It took me 2 years to get them back.
I don't know your situation, but if I could do it again - I would have left immediately when I realized I was deeply unhappy. She hadn't started provoking arguments and recording. It sucks now, but it gets better. My favorite thing now is that I can think "she's not my problem anymore" whenever she's got herself into some stupid predicament. One word of caution - be sure your agreement is clear on how to keep the kids safe. I've had to take her back to court to force her to keep them safe.
A friend has nearly the same situation. Nobody wants to go to court. But you will be so much happier after
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 29d
A nasty, ongoing custody battle is one of my worst nightmares, because that means things are so bad, she's using the one, major lever she'd have left to use on me, and it'd be effective for decades
bbue@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 29d
Your kids will be happier if you are happier. Mine were used against me and it was awful. If you wait, she could use that against you
2 young kids is very very stressful. If she isn't willing to meet you anywhere, then that might be the clarity that things won't work out. And that's ok
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 29d
I know that everything points that way, i just don't know if it's possible, especially now when we're already barely above water with our schooling and the kids
bbue@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 29d
It sounds like your immediate family becomes available if she's not in the picture. One thing that has completely changed my view - having time off from your kids is a gift. You get time to regroup and be the parent you want to be. It sucks not being there 100% of the time at first and is definitely an adjustment, but it makes a huge difference.
Griffus@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 29d
Did she change after the marriage or childbirth, or did you actively settle with a horrible person out of choice? Children know how you are feeling, and they will have a massively more happy childhood if you are happy. Yes, divorce is hard, but if it what needs to happen for you to be able to be happy, your children deserves the effort of going through it. It will be worth it in the end for everyone.
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 29d
I think the bad traits and egregiously unhealthy behaviors just manifested gradually, kind of the frog in the pot situation
qualia@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 29d
I feel my past self may have been similar with your wife's behavior. I was under a lot of professional stress, fearing I might not live up to my potential. At the same time I was perhaps narcissistically confident that my partner would stay in the relationship even if I never gave in to any of their needs (they eventually stopped voicing them except on rare occasions).
If I could give my past partner advice back then I would've told them that I was equally fearful of losing the relationship as they were, they were just more accomodating. They'd put up very weak consequences like cutting me off from sex for a few days but they'd always give back in pretty quickly.
Both relationships sound unhealthy. Is she perhaps getting more out of the relationship than you are? (I was with mine). Or are you both perhaps hurting and getting bad deals?
Being open to change through psychology or psychiatry is a huge benefit so if she seems firmly withdrawn from the former perhaps find a neutral third party to discuss the latter on your behalf. If you have a friend who's a scientist, philosopher, doctor, or pharmacist they can perhaps ease her into how psychiatry has evolved from the days before Foucault to now being a very highly validated field that helps people adapt to social situations. The field still has its problems of categorizing minority neurodivergencies (treating the majority as normal), but that's the reality of the world we live in.
Surface level soap opera advice would be to just start cheating to get what you need from outside the relationship. But why not just get yourself to a position where you can date again with a 50/50 custody situation? Maybe you can build on your own personal growth in tberapy and find someone healthier for both of you next time now that you knlw what you don't want.
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 29d
Regarding the psychotherapy and neurodivergence, that's an issue actually. I believe that she's well aware that many of her behaviors and impulses are unacceptable, but she can't accept that she is the problem, so autism is used as a shield of sorts.
Now, to be fair, I do agree she probably has it to some degree, like I can tell certain reactions she has when she's surprised are not normal. But I also know that being, a domineering, mean person is not part of the ASD diagnostic criteria, and I know her well enough by now to tease the two apart.
kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 29d
I hate so much, when people do this, "oh I cannot help it, I just am like this". Autism does not mean you cannot be a terrible person acting badly, it is a bunch of traits, not a personality. It reflects poorly on all autists and makes it harder, to get the actual problems seen, when people meet some morons, and learn to think autism = jerk. She should be ashamed.
I am sorry you have to go through all this. Hopefully at least being able to discuss it here, gives you something to work with.
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 29d
It's infuriating, because her being a researcher in the humanities/neurodivergence area, she has a wealth of knowledge on how to talk about neurodivergence and a person's loved experiences vs other's perception of it and all manner of conversational tactics that make it nearly impossible to get her to say "yeah that was pretty bitchy how I said that" or anything of that nature
It's always obfuscated and confusing
kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 29d
I can only imagine. My late friend's other parent is a psychologist, and also a genuine, diagnosable narcist. They even admitted it themselves, but that did not improve their behavior, they were a shitty person and a horrible parent... Knowing something, is sadly very different from self-reflecting. If that type of discussions with her get nowhere, it is honestly pointless to have them, unless the therapist is there to help you. And might be even then, unless she starts wanting to change.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 30d
Why did you marry this person. Did they change? If so, how and when?
Also, what share of the housework do you do, and how much sleep would you estimate you and her each get in a usual night?
sneekee_snek_17@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 30d
I had just gotten sober, things were easy and good i thought
I would say we split housework evenly, I've been very kid-heavy recently while she prepares for written comps for her PhD
We get decent sleep, out of the newborn phase, but I'd like to go to sleep around 9:30, but we always seem to be up until around 11:00, which is her preferred time
It's not that I CAN'T do things the way I want to, there's just always friction, and over time it saps my ability to keep asserting myself
As for her changing, I honestly don't think she changed, I think she has just revealed more of her "normal" communication modes as our lives became more enmeshed
antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 29d
Have you tried withholding sex? Just like distance yourself to a roommate. Then if you can sleep in another room, do that and go to bed early. Then with a little space you can decide in a few months if you want to stay or go.