Yeah thats the spirit.
I for one would love to get some small steps into the right direction.
(Which changes all the time, but a step is a step, right? Even if we just walked into the opposite direction)
The problem is that incremental change is only possible in systems that have room for incremental improvement, and are run democratically. This rules out capitalism entirely.
8 hr work day from 16 is an improvement. Need more though.
The modern movement originated in the Industrial Revolution in Britain, where industrial production in large factories transformed working life. At that time, the working day could range from 10 to 16 hours, the work week was typically six days, and child labour was common.
The shift to the 40 hour work week came alongside 2 critical advancements: organized working classes taking inspiration from successful socialist revolution, and the expansion of imperialism abroad. Devastating working conditions were exported from the global north to the global south in a collective agreement to stop a risk of revolution.
Yes, so all the laws securing that over the decades doesnt count as incrmental change? Maybe we have different interpretation of the definition of incremental change?
Incrementalism did not achieve the 8 hour workday, anarchists and communists throwing bombs did, because power has no reason to compromise unless it is actually threatened.
True that mate but it was refined and expanded globally expanded after well over 100 years of incremental updates. Least from the United States wiki 1791 to 1937.
It was actually interesting reading how much of this came from efficiency studies in ww1.
In defense of small changes, the 2nd term Trump administration is a great example for why it should be difficult to make big changes. Even with the decent guardrail, he is able to completely destroy congressional mandated agencies, implement random tariffs (tariffs are back BTW), use DoJ as personal revenge agency. There should be a small appreciation of what we have today when compared to the last three thousand years of history. Things really can get a lot worse and very quickly.
Do I want Medicaid for all/single payer, yes.
Would I settle for Medicaid for those who want it, definitely.
Things really can get a lot worse and very quickly.
Things can also get a lot better very quickly. Being against major change because change can be bad is like being against having a big cake because shit can also be big.
I couldn’t so boldly say things can get better very quickly. Can they really?
They can, simply look at China or the USSR when the revolution came and effectively every metric that matters (life expectancy up, poverty down etc.) went vertical.
Does human nature support that
Human nature isn't real. Material reality precedes thought/nature.
I think that is a point worth considering too. I would argue we have incrementally been in decline regarding workers for 4 decades, and just not doing that would have also avoided Trump. Anyway we probably mostly agree.
It's also notable that the decline in worker rights neatly coincides with the fall of USSR when the main alternative system was finally eliminated and we had the whole end of history moment.
Whether the gas pedal is lightly tapped or slammed to the metal makes no difference when you're speeding towards a cliff and both the brakes and steering are cut. Staying in the vehicle is suicide.
30 Comments
spicehoarder@lemmy.zip · 29 pts · 59d
Can't wait for .world centrists to find this
eldavi@lemmy.ml · 10 pts · 58d
-- assuming that haven't blocked op already. lol
verstra@programming.dev · 14 pts · 59d
Who is holding the middle sign?
ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml · 17 pts · 59d
M. C. Escher
folaht@lemmy.ml · 11 pts · 59d
They don't want you to know
cypherpunks@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 58d
More Women Drone Pilots
yogthos@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 58d
that's incredible
BeUnique@lemmy.zip · 8 pts · 58d
You're average DNC candidate across the board these days.
jafra@slrpnk.net · -5 pts · 59d
Yeah thats the spirit. I for one would love to get some small steps into the right direction. (Which changes all the time, but a step is a step, right? Even if we just walked into the opposite direction)
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 30 pts · 59d
The problem is that incremental change is only possible in systems that have room for incremental improvement, and are run democratically. This rules out capitalism entirely.
Maeve@kbin.earth · 11 pts · 58d
Aka one step forward, 20 steps back.
mika_mika@lemmy.world · -10 pts · 59d
Truly, no progress of any sort was ever made in between the 1800s and 2000s in capitalist USA.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 14 pts · 59d
"Progress" in what manner, and for who?
Spacehooks@reddthat.com · -2 pts · 58d
8 hr work day from 16 is an improvement. Need more though.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 13 pts · 58d
The shift to the 40 hour work week came alongside 2 critical advancements: organized working classes taking inspiration from successful socialist revolution, and the expansion of imperialism abroad. Devastating working conditions were exported from the global north to the global south in a collective agreement to stop a risk of revolution.
Spacehooks@reddthat.com · -4 pts · 58d
Yes, so all the laws securing that over the decades doesnt count as incrmental change? Maybe we have different interpretation of the definition of incremental change?
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 55d
All of the little bits of change that have happened have been secondary to the actual evolution of capitalism. We cannot fix capitalism.
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 58d
Incrementalism did not achieve the 8 hour workday, anarchists and communists throwing bombs did, because power has no reason to compromise unless it is actually threatened.
Spacehooks@reddthat.com · -1 pts · 58d
True that mate but it was refined and expanded globally expanded after well over 100 years of incremental updates. Least from the United States wiki 1791 to 1937.
It was actually interesting reading how much of this came from efficiency studies in ww1.
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 58d
We innovated new ways to profit off genocides and put fascists in charge of countries
yogthos@lemmy.ml · 18 pts · 59d
and here's what it gets you in the long run https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 14 pts · 59d
Open your fucking eyes lol. You're barreling towards fascism because dems limp dick policies are unpalatable to the base.
holy_scroller@lemmy.zip · -10 pts · 58d
In defense of small changes, the 2nd term Trump administration is a great example for why it should be difficult to make big changes. Even with the decent guardrail, he is able to completely destroy congressional mandated agencies, implement random tariffs (tariffs are back BTW), use DoJ as personal revenge agency. There should be a small appreciation of what we have today when compared to the last three thousand years of history. Things really can get a lot worse and very quickly.
Do I want Medicaid for all/single payer, yes.
Would I settle for Medicaid for those who want it, definitely.
QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml · 18 pts · 58d
Things can also get a lot better very quickly. Being against major change because change can be bad is like being against having a big cake because shit can also be big.
HeHoXa@lemmy.zip · -4 pts · 58d
Generally I share your sentiment, but just for consideration, I couldn't so boldly say things can get better very quickly. Can they really?
Does human nature support that, or is major change virtually guaranteed to trigger power struggles and chaos detrimental to the average citizen?
I'm not sure we can objectively assert an answer very confidently.
QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 58d
Just saw this but @gary_host_laptop@lemmy.ml seems to have beat me too it.
But effectively:
They can, simply look at China or the USSR when the revolution came and effectively every metric that matters (life expectancy up, poverty down etc.) went vertical.
Human nature isn't real. Material reality precedes thought/nature.
yogthos@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 58d
Decades of incrementalism is precisely how the US got to the spot where Trump has become a viable political figure.
holy_scroller@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 58d
I think that is a point worth considering too. I would argue we have incrementally been in decline regarding workers for 4 decades, and just not doing that would have also avoided Trump. Anyway we probably mostly agree.
yogthos@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 58d
It's also notable that the decline in worker rights neatly coincides with the fall of USSR when the main alternative system was finally eliminated and we had the whole end of history moment.
sleeplessone@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 58d
Whether the gas pedal is lightly tapped or slammed to the metal makes no difference when you're speeding towards a cliff and both the brakes and steering are cut. Staying in the vehicle is suicide.