It's basically the same argument Argentina has about the Falkland Islands. When Argentina was part of the Spanish empire the Falkland Islands were part of the empire, not that the Spanish did anything with the islands. But at no time in history has Argentina existed as an independent country and has had ownership of the islands.
Yeah, the channel islands and the Isle of Man have more autonomy. Officially they are "self-governing British Crown Dependencies".
Jersey and Guernsey have different VAT rates for instance. For years, play.com was based in Jersey solely so they wouldn't have to pay VAT on most of the cheaper stuff they sold to the mainland.
Well, Scots would often say "we're not British but we are Scottish" since British usually means "from the UK" but I don't think any of them would deny that most of Scotland is in Great Britain.
pretty much! The commonwealth is what the British empire became, most former British colonies are members, and King Charles is its head, though most member states are republics now, and don't have him as their king. It's a mostly-cerrmonial political group that occasionally does things like promote trade or diplomacy
For a moment, I thought, this comment was in response to the Europe map someone else posted. There the answer would have been easy, of course: Eurovision. 🙃
The words that ultimately gave us “Britain” have been in use for about 2,000 years, give or take a century or two. Politically and culturally a tremendous lot has happened in the meantime. Which is probably why we’re left with this almost indecipherable mine field.
Tell me about it. Immigrants? From Britain? Taking over (culturally) a foreign land. You couldn’t make it up. I once witnessed some drunk Bretons speaking to some drunk Welsh in their respective languages… and “kind of” understanding each other.
Now if someone can tell me what exactly "Britain" is? People say it all the time, like this is the largest statue of a vulva in Britain. Just shorthand for Great Britain, or is it something else?
It's like saying America to mean the United States. Technically America includes Canada and excludes Hawaii. But when people say America they actually mean US + Alaska and Hawaii but not Canada.
This is a good way to distinguish the terms. I wonder if there is a good colour scheme to also indicate the nation states as district from the landmasses
"British and Irish Isles" is the most common descriptor for the whole archipelago I see, and it seems a fair one even if it's a bit long. It'd be nice if we could all agree on something catchier but that seems unlikely, all things considered
Celtic would be better. Gaelic literally means coming from the Gaels, aka the Irish. Welsh and Cornish are Brythonic language speakers, not Goidelic/Gaelic, but they are all Celtic languages. The Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes invaded Celtic Britain starting in the 400s.
They're just part of Scotland. Although the nearby Orkney Islands (also part of Scotland) have recently flirted with leaving the UK and becoming part of Norway.
Why Orkney and not Shetland (or does Shetland want to leave too)? I would've figured it'd be the one physically further away from Britain that would feel less affiliation.
Can someone do one for terminology?
Is calling people British mainly socially acceptable? I imagine the exception is the Irish from Ireland, but those from northern Ireland may give that a pass?
What's the bets ramble81 calls himself Scottish cos his great great great great great great great great great great great great granda once sniffed a Tunnock's Teacake? 😂
I'm not going to take a pop at them because it is entirely possible that they live in Scotland, are passionate about Scottish independence and has similarly committed friends and family. Likewise, I'm only speaking from personal experience as someone who is English, but has discussed stuff with Scottish friends on occassion.
So I'm late to the party here, but this is a very early version of a diagram I'm putting together that corrects a couple of issues with the diagram OP posted.
As I said: very early and also very incomplete, but what's there is accurate.
At least for Scots, this is not a general case. Some consider themselves not to be British because they don't want Scotland to be part of the UK, others will take exception to the conflation of "British" with "English" because that implies that Scotland is just considered part of England. You don't even have to have strong feelings either way about either England or the UK for that one.
At least for now, the word "British" is associated more with the political entity of the UK than the geographical entity of the island of Great Britain. That most of Scotland is on the island of Great Britain will not persuade anyone in the first camp.
113 Comments
_Gandalf_the_Black_@feddit.de · 82 pts · 2y
The term British Isles is, of course, disputed by the Irish.
NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone · 9 pts · 2y
They had a signpost in the Atlantic saying “Irish Isles” for weeks before we noticed.
Gabu@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 2y
How about we collective reestablish the name "Albion", then?
thesporkeffect@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
Treacherous Albion
Welt@lazysoci.al · 3 pts · 2y
I prefer Perfidious Albion
thesporkeffect@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
I'm an idiot
onion@feddit.de · 38 pts · 2y
MyTurtleSwimsUpsideDown@kbin.social · 47 pts · 2y
I think this chart is out of date
Gork@lemm.ee · 9 pts · 2y
https://giphy.com/gifs/hoppip-art-television-Of35X575BJlle
Lemminary@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 2y
Image in link:
Lemminary@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 2y
Why does this feel like high school all over again
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
Because it is. You never graduated and you have a test right now that you didn't study for. You're also in your underwear.
Aggravationstation@lemmy.world · 35 pts · 2y
OK, looking at this I can now understand why it may not all make immediate sense to someone who didn't grow up here.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 9 pts · 2y
And in the US, there’s definitely a subset that believes England means Great Britain or even the United Kingdom.
Same folks that referred to the entire USSR as Russia, probs.
pickscrape@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 2y
There are plenty of people in the US that refer to England as "London".
MadBob@feddit.nl · 7 pts · 2y
Using any country's capital as shorthand for its current government is a common form of metonymy to be fair!
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 3 pts · 2y
That’s one of my favorite nyms
GreatAlbatross@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 2y
And there are plenty of people in russia who think everything that was ever USSR should be russia.
echodot@feddit.uk · 3 pts · 2y
It's basically the same argument Argentina has about the Falkland Islands. When Argentina was part of the Spanish empire the Falkland Islands were part of the empire, not that the Spanish did anything with the islands. But at no time in history has Argentina existed as an independent country and has had ownership of the islands.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 2y
& vers vicea
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 2y
England is my city
rmuk@feddit.uk · 15 pts · 2y
This chart: "England, Scotland and Wales are in Great Britain"
Wight, the Scillies, Anglesey, Sheppy, Anglesey, the Shetlands, the Orkneys, the Hebrides, and thousands more: "Are we a joke to you?"
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 8 pts · 2y
I think Sheppey is a joke to everyone including the people that have to live there.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 2y
I’m trying to remember though, aren’t the Jersey, Guernsey, and Man somehow closer to Scotland or Wales status than say Sheppey or the Orkneys?
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 5 pts · 2y
Yeah, the channel islands and the Isle of Man have more autonomy. Officially they are "self-governing British Crown Dependencies".
Jersey and Guernsey have different VAT rates for instance. For years, play.com was based in Jersey solely so they wouldn't have to pay VAT on most of the cheaper stuff they sold to the mainland.
Rodeo@lemmy.ca · 7 pts · 2y
Aren't those all part of one of the other three? The orkneys and Hebrides are part of Scotland.
rmuk@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 2y
That's my point: they're all part of England/Scotland/Wales, but they aren't part of Great Britain.
primal_buddhist@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2y
I think if you are a part of those three then you are automatically part of GB
NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone · 3 pts · 2y
None of those are in Great Britain, because they are islands and therefore not part of the island of Great Britain.
rmuk@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 2y
But they are all part of England, Scotland or Wales which, according to the diagram, are within Great Britain...
FrankTheHealer@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 2y
British Isles is not the term the Irish use. Atlantic Archipelago or just the isles is proffered.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 9 pts · 2y
this is totally the Bahamas. Or Palm Beach condos.
FrankTheHealer@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 2y
Well they're just as much in the Atlantic as us so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
MisterFrog@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
Britannia and Hibernia. Brittano-Hibernian Islands? Atlantic archipelago seems vague as an outsider from neither Britain or Ireland.
smeg@feddit.uk · 11 pts · 2y
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 1 pts · 2y
I’m not sure I follow. It looks as specific in the diagram as all the other names?
smeg@feddit.uk · 10 pts · 2y
Subverb@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 2y
The Scots wouldn't agree with this. I've spent a lot of time there.
The Shetlands, Orkneys, Harris and the rest of the Hebrides aren't even mentioned. Haha
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 2y
The North shall rise again
MadBob@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 2y
Well, Scots would often say "we're not British but we are Scottish" since British usually means "from the UK" but I don't think any of them would deny that most of Scotland is in Great Britain.
rmuk@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 2y
And Anglesey in Wales, and Wight in England, etc. Honestly I'm not a fan of this diagram.
yak@lmy.brx.io · 0 pts · 2y
Those are groups of northern islands, so they were excluded. Unlike Northern Ireland, which isn't an island so it was included.
???
MissJinx@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 2y
what about canada and australia?
nickhammes@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 2y
show the entire commonwealth, and every place the UK has ever colonized?
MissJinx@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
well sorry idk the difference between commomweath and the map, isn't that the point?
nickhammes@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
pretty much! The commonwealth is what the British empire became, most former British colonies are members, and King Charles is its head, though most member states are republics now, and don't have him as their king. It's a mostly-cerrmonial political group that occasionally does things like promote trade or diplomacy
MissJinx@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
Is India part of the commonwealth?
nickhammes@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
Yup, every British colony as of 1945 joined the commonwealth except Myanmar, and one called Aden that is now part of Yemen
MissJinx@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
TIL! Thank you dear sir!
MyTurtleSwimsUpsideDown@kbin.social · 7 pts · 2y
I did not wake up this morning expecting to read someone claiming that Canada is an island.
PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
But Hans Island is an island, and it's ours! 🇩🇰
Deceptichum@kbin.social · 1 pts · 2y
And I’ll take offence to being called an island, we’re a continent down here.
Ephera@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 2y
For a moment, I thought, this comment was in response to the Europe map someone else posted. There the answer would have been easy, of course: Eurovision. 🙃
Microplasticbrain@lemm.ee · 8 pts · 2y
soggy_kitty@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 2y
As a Englishman, I can't have you talking down on the Scots. They're the only ones left which are still decent
Microplasticbrain@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 2y
Rand0mA@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 2y
Lol irish shit cunts
Ephera@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 2y
Huh, is that the old Jersey?
Pons_Aelius@kbin.social · 17 pts · 2y
Yup. Though original is probably the better description.
agent_flounder@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 2y
The OJ
synae@lemmy.sdf.org · 5 pts · 2y
The new jersey is extra crispy
HeartyOfGlass@lemm.ee · 10 pts · 2y
They prefer the term "Jersey Classic"
cypherpunks@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 2y
and the Original Guernsey (not to be confused with the new one)
smeg@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 2y
ComradePorkRoll@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
Not at all.
jackpot@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 2y
they call the state ROI (republic of ireland) to distinguish between the island
Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 2y
The words that ultimately gave us “Britain” have been in use for about 2,000 years, give or take a century or two. Politically and culturally a tremendous lot has happened in the meantime. Which is probably why we’re left with this almost indecipherable mine field.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 3 pts · 2y
And it doesn’t even include Bretagne.
Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 2y
Tell me about it. Immigrants? From Britain? Taking over (culturally) a foreign land. You couldn’t make it up. I once witnessed some drunk Bretons speaking to some drunk Welsh in their respective languages… and “kind of” understanding each other.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
I just stay 'fuck it' and call them all Celtoi.
Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 2y
That’s a nice word. I like to use Pritani but might mix it up a bit from now on.
schnokobaer@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 2y
Now if someone can tell me what exactly "Britain" is? People say it all the time, like this is the largest statue of a vulva in Britain. Just shorthand for Great Britain, or is it something else?
Diobhal@ttrpg.network · 10 pts · 2y
Just that - shorthand for Great Britain. Easier to use when you don't think it's so great, like if you live in the Republic of Ireland!
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 1 pts · 2y
Which on the diagram is coterminous with “Ireland (state)”?
Diobhal@ttrpg.network · 3 pts · 2y
Exactly - that's it's proper name and how it's distinguished from Northern Ireland since they share the land mass of Ireland
Diobhal@ttrpg.network · 3 pts · 2y
You did a great job on this though, OP. It's difficult to explain to non-nationals with no idea of the history, so this is very helpful
echodot@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 2y
It's like saying America to mean the United States. Technically America includes Canada and excludes Hawaii. But when people say America they actually mean US + Alaska and Hawaii but not Canada.
dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 2y
Most people not from the UK will use "Britain" as an alternative word for "England".
incogtino@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 2y
This is a good way to distinguish the terms. I wonder if there is a good colour scheme to also indicate the nation states as district from the landmasses
DScratch@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 2y
No one outside of the UK includes Ireland in the British Isles.
Skua@kbin.social · 4 pts · 2y
"British and Irish Isles" is the most common descriptor for the whole archipelago I see, and it seems a fair one even if it's a bit long. It'd be nice if we could all agree on something catchier but that seems unlikely, all things considered
hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 2y
If we removed Brits from the world map, we could call it just Ireland
DScratch@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2y
Gaelic Isles
Welt@lazysoci.al · 1 pts · 2y
Celtic would be better. Gaelic literally means coming from the Gaels, aka the Irish. Welsh and Cornish are Brythonic language speakers, not Goidelic/Gaelic, but they are all Celtic languages. The Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes invaded Celtic Britain starting in the 400s.
ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 2y
I would... (Australian)
PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
Speaking of! Shouldn't Australia be in that chart too? And I'd like to see the "commonwealth" in the diagram too. It's all good complicated!
HeartyBeast@kbin.social · 2 pts · 2y
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles
_Gandalf_the_Black_@feddit.de · 1 pts · 2y
I'm English and I don't either. It's a pretty obvious hangover of British imperial pretensions.
HeartyBeast@kbin.social · 2 pts · 2y
Yeh, I don't think I would either. It does feel disrepectful
agent_flounder@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2y
Cool!
I wonder... how do/does Shetland islands?/ Archipelago? fit into this?
sanguinepar@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 2y
They're just part of Scotland. Although the nearby Orkney Islands (also part of Scotland) have recently flirted with leaving the UK and becoming part of Norway.
grue@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
Why Orkney and not Shetland (or does Shetland want to leave too)? I would've figured it'd be the one physically further away from Britain that would feel less affiliation.
sanguinepar@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
Yeah, I know what you mean, it is a bit odd. I'm not sure why Orkney and not Shetland. Doubt it'll ever happen tbh!
steeznson@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
They were mainly floating the idea in a bid to get more funding allocated from the Scottish government
sanguinepar@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
Ah ok :-)
jerrythegenius@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2y
rekabis@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 2y
One hell of a complex and crazy history in a very tiny space over the last two thousand years.
Hell, you could just cleave off the last thousand as a reference and be done with that. Although that does leave out some juicy origin stories.
Strawberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 2y
imperialism
Habahnow@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 2y
Can someone do one for terminology? Is calling people British mainly socially acceptable? I imagine the exception is the Irish from Ireland, but those from northern Ireland may give that a pass?
hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 2y
I'd think calling Scot a Brit is like calling Peruvian an American. Technically true but kinda rude
smeg@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 2y
GeneralEmergency@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2y
Never push a national identity onto someone from Northern Ireland. Because that's also a political Identity
In general British is a national identity. English/Scottish/Welsh would be a cultural identity.
You would call them what they say they are.
ramble81@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 2y
Call someone from Scotland British and see how that works out for you….
Mr_Blott@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 2y
I'm perfectly happy being called British
Just don't refer to the UK as Engurlaaand
HeartyBeast@kbin.social · 6 pts · 2y
Seems to work very well in most cases.
Mr_Blott@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2y
What's the bets ramble81 calls himself Scottish cos his great great great great great great great great great great great great granda once sniffed a Tunnock's Teacake? 😂
HeartyBeast@kbin.social · 2 pts · 2y
I'm not going to take a pop at them because it is entirely possible that they live in Scotland, are passionate about Scottish independence and has similarly committed friends and family. Likewise, I'm only speaking from personal experience as someone who is English, but has discussed stuff with Scottish friends on occassion.
smeg@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 2y
rmuk@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 2y
So I'm late to the party here, but this is a very early version of a diagram I'm putting together that corrects a couple of issues with the diagram OP posted.
As I said: very early and also very incomplete, but what's there is accurate.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 2y
I’m into it! I can’t wait to see where this goes.
topinambour_rex@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2y
The state Irland shouldn't be republic of Irland ?
EinfachUnersetzlich@lemm.ee · 14 pts · 2y
No, the state is called Ireland as defined in its constitution.
topinambour_rex@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 2y
Thanks for the information.
GBU_28@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 2y
They mean the political construct, not the variety of governance
BlackPenguins@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2y
Now add the EU.
Mango@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 2y
Ireland wtf?
nUbee@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 2y
Apparently, Scots and Irish believe British == English. Or, they can't stand the thought of being labeled in any similar category as the English.
Skua@kbin.social · 8 pts · 2y
At least for Scots, this is not a general case. Some consider themselves not to be British because they don't want Scotland to be part of the UK, others will take exception to the conflation of "British" with "English" because that implies that Scotland is just considered part of England. You don't even have to have strong feelings either way about either England or the UK for that one.
At least for now, the word "British" is associated more with the political entity of the UK than the geographical entity of the island of Great Britain. That most of Scotland is on the island of Great Britain will not persuade anyone in the first camp.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org · 1 pts · 2y
Do people that live in this diagram consider “Britain” synonymous with “Great Britain”?
Skua@kbin.social · 4 pts · 2y
More likely to consider it synonymous with the UK in most contexts.
Welt@lazysoci.al · 1 pts · 2y
It stopped being Great after Brexit