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c/europe · by schizoidman@lemmy.zip · 244d

Sánchez: EU must build common defence, even without full bloc support

https://www.euractiv.com/news/sanchez-eu-must-build-common-defence-even-without-full-bloc-support/

161 points · 27 comments · view on lemmy.world

27 Comments

vpol@feddit.uk · 43 pts · 244d (8 replies)

Start building it with countries who agree now. Others will see the benefit and join later. It was the same with the EU itself.

stoy@lemmy.zip · 13 pts · 244d

Yep, that would also mean it would be simpler to setup a command structure and a working administration framework.

plyth@feddit.org · -2 pts · 244d (6 replies)

Are we sure that the EU is actually independend? When have the US lost their influence?

However, after US President John F. Kennedy expressed his displeasure about this to the West German ambassador to the United States, the Bundestag ratified the treaty with a preamble which called on France and West Germany to pursue tight cooperation with the United States; the eventual admission of the United Kingdom to the EEC; the achievement of a free trade accord in the framework of the GATT; and for the West’s military integration in NATO under US leadership

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lys%C3%A9e_Treaty

*

This effectively emptied the Treaty of any sense (in Gaullist understanding) and put end to General de Gaulle’s hopes of building the EEC into a counterweight to the US and the USSR.

73ms@sopuli.xyz · 6 pts · 243d (3 replies)

Quoting ancient history that shows France was already fairly independent back then and that Germany wasn't shortly after WW2 isn't a very good argument.

Spain is calling for building a common defense capability because that is the one area where the EU isn't as independent as it should be in light of how undependable the USA has become. This has already started to change.

plyth@feddit.org · -2 pts · 243d (2 replies)

Have you seen my reply to the other comment. The origin of the EU was the prevention of European independence.

The EU has accepted the American tariffs without a fight. Even if the EU is formally independent, are the people that run it, too?

73ms@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 243d (1 reply)

Again, what de Gaulle thought in the 1960 of the initial stages does not tell you what the EU is today at all.

The reason the EU did not enter into a trade war at least so far is that economists would tell you it's still less harmful to just negotiate them to be as low as can be and let them be on one side, they hurt the USA more than the EU. Also note that the EU is in the process of negotiating Mercosur and resolving their issues with Chinese EVs so part of their response is to try to open up more free trade with other countries. Trump trying to press for European territory with them and not sticking to anything agreed upon may change the calculus in the future though.

plyth@feddit.org · 0 pts · 243d

The thing is that we don't know what the EU is today. That's why I ask if we know the moment that the EU broke free. If we don't know it, how can we be sure that it is?

E.g. if you look at the military, EU command infrastructure is shared with NATO. In every conflict, NATO has right of first refusal. So NATO takes over whenever NATO wants. Who has high command in NATO?

For Hungary we openly discuss the Russian influence and how Russia abuses the requirement for unanimousity. Does the US have a similar influence on any other EU country?

Melchior@feddit.org · 5 pts · 244d (1 reply)

So your argument for the US being dependent on the US is the preamble of a treaty, which itself has no legal consequences of any kind?

plyth@feddit.org · -1 pts · 244d

This effectively emptied the Treaty of any sense (in Gaullist understanding) and put end to General de Gaulle's hopes of building the EEC into a counterweight to the US and the USSR.

General de Gaulle's hopes of building the EEC into a counterweight to the US and the USSR. "The Germans are behaving like pigs. They are putting themselves completely at the Americans' service. They're betraying the spirit of the Franco-German Treaty. And they're betraying Europe."[11] Later, in 1965, the General told his closest aides behind closed doors: "The Germans had been my greatest hope; they are my greatest disappointment."

5715@feddit.org · 12 pts · 244d (12 replies)

I was under the impression that Spain wasn't too interested in the conflicts to the East and the North of the EU, but that was wrong apparently. Good.

thesdev@feddit.org · 6 pts · 244d (5 replies)

I see how you get that impression, considering they rank low both in military spending and financial assistance to Ukraine.

bufalo1973@piefed.social · 5 pts · 244d (4 replies)

More expending doesn't mean better expending.

Kissaki@feddit.org · 1 pts · 243d (3 replies)

It's a fair assumption though.

bufalo1973@piefed.social · 1 pts · 243d (2 replies)

A Lamborginni is expensive. A pickup not so much. Which one is better to work in the field?

Kissaki@feddit.org · 1 pts · 238d (1 reply)

Why are militaries more equatable to a field than a race track?

bufalo1973@piefed.social · 1 pts · 238d

It's just an example.

Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -1 pts · 244d (5 replies)

In Spain elections are done by region, i.e. parties need to win votes at all times. Sánchez is wildly unpopular now and needs to get all votes he can.

mapu@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 243d (4 replies)

As opposed to countries where parties don't need to get votes? Huh?

73ms@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 243d (3 replies)

"At all times" probably is the key. In some countries you may have long periods between important elections, unpopular changes are often frontloaded to the beginning of the term so that voters would forget about them by next elections.

mapu@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 243d (2 replies)

That's the way it's done in Spain at a national level too. Four-year election cycles. I guess he's talkimg about regional elections? But I fail to see how that's different to every other country that also has regional elections, and how Sánchez has much say in those

Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 243d (1 reply)

US, which is what most people use as basis, have two major elections: midterms and generals. Any other are much minor and do not impact the voters.

mapu@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 243d

They impact the voters more than the autonomical elections do, as American states have more power than Spanish autonomies

itflows@feddit.org · 5 pts · 244d

This is the idea of a Multi-Speed Europe. This is nothing new, but voices haven't been that loud (except for these moments when Angela Merkel floated the idea rather vaguely and called it "Europe of two speeds".

This is not limited to military cooperation but also extends to economic and societal integrations. In reality, we already do have these cooperations especially at border regions where enablements of Schengen hits the people directly. Why should these cooperations stop at border regions, for example? The eurozone ist yet another example of a different Europe.

0_o7@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 243d (1 reply)

The best time to do that was when Russia invaded Ukraine, the next best time is now.

acockworkorange@mander.xyz · 1 pts · 243d

2014? Or earlier?

theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 243d (1 reply)

One big stumbling block is the relationship with Turkey. Is the EU ready to defend Greece and Cyprus the way everyone is talking about defending the Baltics and other Eastern flank countries from Russia?

If not, Greece and Cyprus will just keep going down the existing path of cooperation with Israel, the UAE, and the USA, hoping to counterbalance Erdogan's aggression. This is a serious weak spot in any kind of European move for strategic independence.

Turkish adventurism is a ticking time bomb in the security architecture of Europe and nobody wants to talk or do anything about it except France.

birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 243d

I am ready to defend the Baltics and Greece and Cyprus. Anything to spite Russia and the US!