You fool, you absolute bingus. You have fallen for one of the classic blunders, for I, in my infinite wisdom, know that all states are bad. And all equally so at that. 😎
I will never see another one of your posts again though, please block me or better yet delete your account so no one has to see you. Trust me no one wants to.
It's funny how deciding which side is truthful is based on which side you belong to. It's also amusing seeing how people come up with myriads of proofs their side is right when the only true argument is "my interests go along with theirs". And it's tragic that both sides kind of tell the truth at the same time however contradicting it is...
Well there's one side that's based on science and one side that's based on idealism (the belief that all people are jedi and can control reality with their minds alone).
I can understand not trusting the US Empire, Israel, etc, but why not trust the PRC? I'd rather trust a socialist country with a functional democratic governance over capitalist countries.
I swear none of you guys have actually lived in China haha.
The Chinese political system is nepotism first, plutocracy second. Just like the US. The only difference is they're much more sane in public. The benefits of a shame based society.
If anyone can beat 7 years in Kunming, let me know how I'm wrong.
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people's democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Moreover, the economy in the PRC is socialist, with public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China's success.
The US Empire, on the other hand, has private ownership as principle, with top-down "democracy." Candidates are pre-selected, and term limits ensure that even if a genuine socialist won, they would not be able to sufficiently change the system. It's designed for maintaining the dominance of capital.
I highly recommend Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we've learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
With all due respect, and apologies for not reading the book first (I will get to it when I have time). Have you just read the theory, or have you lived the implementation?
Because unfortunately, they can be different in practice. In my experience of the discussions I've had with my Chinese friends, and the amount of gossip I've heard about local political dynasties and KTV prostitutes, I think the ideal and the reality is very different. Something you could also say about the US.
China isn't perfect, none of us pretend it is. I hear and partake in the gossip too, the stories about connections and KTV backrooms (and more you've probably yet to even hear of). But here's the thing I've seen firsthand, especially when I visit family in the countryside: the villages that had dirt roads and no running water when I was a kid now have high-speed rail stops, 5G, and clinics that actually stock medicine.
And yeah, people complain, gossip, spread rumours. Of course they do, we're human too. But the trust isn't blind. It's earned. When a pilot program for rural healthcare or poverty alleviation works in one county, they scale it to the province. When something fails, they tweak it or scrap it. You see it in the towns that went from abject poverty to being connected, electrified, and lifted up in a single generation.
Even the sources you'd expect to be critical can't ignore it. Harvard's Ash Center ran the longest independent survey of Chinese public opinion, interviewing over 32,000 people between 2003 and 2016. They found satisfaction with the central government at 95.5% in the final wave. Edelman's 2022 Trust Barometer put China at 91% trust in government, the US at 39%. These aren't state media. They're Western institutions. They see the same trend we feel on the ground.
That's possible because of how our democratic system actually works. Democracy isn't just about voting for different parties or the spectacle of elections. It's about whether people are heard and whether their lives get better. If you think Chinese people aren't being heard, or that the feedback doesn't translate into action, you're plainly wrong. The proof isn't in the theory. It's in the roads, the rails, and the fact that trust stays high even when the gossip is rampant (who doesn't love a bit of gossip).
Thank you for that. I really appreciate this post and it resonates with me. I wouldn't have stayed there for so long if I didn't love it too. But I can't deal with the rhetoric on .ml that acts like it's a utopia with no justified dissent.
There is absolutely a functioning democracy, but it isn't immune to nepotism or greed, just like everywhere else. It's also capable of manufacturing suffering.
The two people who remain in my thoughts the most from my time there were the 80 year old couple who worked as parking attendants in my building so they could stay in a single room partition in the garage with a kerosene heater. This was in 2011, in the center of Kunming. Not one of the rural villages in the mountains. They could have been provided for but they weren't. It's not a utopia, but it is a great country full of wonderful people.
That couple in Kunming. No amount of progress erases that. They deserved better.
But, so much has changed since then. Even just since 2021. Housing market cooling down, 996 ruled illegal by the Supreme People's Court, new protections for delivery riders rolling out in Zhejiang, Guangdong. And the corruption crackdowns, "Tigers and flies" clearly wasn't just propaganda.
On .ml people seem tired of the constant negative spin on China, so they swing hard the other way. Sometimes too hard (though I've yet to see it too many times). And, even folks here can still slip into old "China bad" habits (seen a lot of this recently). Like saying China does nothing for the Global South when you've got the Ethiopia-Djibouti railway, Gwadar Port, vaccine donations, debt relief and much more showing how patently false that is.
I'll just say it plain. I think China's model, the way we do democracy, foreign policy, the whole political economy, is the best working option we've got right now. Not because it's perfect, but because it actually moves the needle for hundreds of millions. It's not even playing the same game as the Euro-Amerikan hegemony that's been exporting crisis forever. Why throw out the good, or spend all day demonizing it, when so much worse is happening way closer to home for most people on here. Stick in their eye vs a speck in mine, yknow?
Edit: a graph just to show how much things have changed
You do realize you're using anecdotes to dismiss China, but don't tolerate anecdotes that counter that? It's almost like you already made up your mind.
Go and read sources, check how most Chinese people consider their government democratic according to western NGOs (so you can't blame the government for bias/meddling), same as with Vietnam, and how low western liberal democracies score in the same reports. Check statistics of the insane material harm that Japan and western regimes did to these countries, and how they still recovered, how China lifted 800 million out of poverty, how their lives keep getting better day after day while most people in our countries infrastructure is crumbling down. Or how most Chinese people own their homes, while most of us can only hope to own a house if we come from wealth or got enough support and luck to end with a very well paid job (and a mortgage that we'll pay for years to come).
I have never lived in China, no, but the textbook I provided is an overview of the real systems that exist, flaws and all, combined with the theoretical reasoning for the structures and the reasons they have changed over time, their history. That's why I added that socialist democracy is imperfect, but it stands in stark contrast to the utter failure that is capitalist democracy, and I listed the reasons why.
The Anna's archive link on that page is dead unfortunately, I'll try to find it but do you have one handy?
Memes aside, you know it's all propaganda though right?
Even if you want to gloss it up as the "the revolution protecting itself" the PRC isn't going to go out and admit "there's flaws in our system", much less "our government is run by a bunch of horny greedy assholes just like everywhere else".
--edit--
Though I agree the damage those assholes can do is limited by the system much more than the US which is a failed state.
Either way, the PRC does admit to flaws and problems. The method of criticism and self-criticism is applied in China. Further, the government isn't run by a "bunch of horny greedy assholes." Corruption exists to a certain degree, but the CPC regularly cracks down on this, rather than allowing it to flourish. It seems, above all, that you're letting your distrust of government in general cause you to magnify problems in China beyond their real existence in order to equate it to capitalist states.
What's wrong with Marxism? Why not engage with Marxists? Further, I know many Lemmy.ml users are anarchists or even liberals, we aren't all communists.
You got it backwards, the US has been hell to the rest of the world for decades (and to their own indigenous population much longer than that). Modern Russia only exists because the US sabotaged and illegally destroyed the USSR, even though the people living in it voted for it to remain. Then they got Yeltsin elected by blasting propaganda and misinformation, and after their legislature didn't want him to unilaterally destroy the country, he sent fucking tanks to it. All of this happened because of US meddling, that's the "democracy" and "freedom" they brought to Russia and elsewhere.
Not Liberals, simply stupid and ignorant people which believe everything what mainstream media say. With a cultured and informed people, the USA would be a full democracy and Trump in jail since years.
Not in the U.S they aren't. They are progressives. Not necessarily anti capitalist but they are fully social progressives.
Please explain how a social progressive is the same as a neo Nazi.
Definition
Noun
a supporter of policies that are socially progressive and promote social welfare.
"she dissented from the decision, joined by the court's liberals"
a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise
Now libertarian is a different story.
But you can all Google the definition of both because there seems to be a lot of people who are promoting that liberals are right wingers. And that's literally the opposite of what they are.
Yes I understand the middle has shifted. But that's normal and has always happened throughout history.
Liberals are not conservative. They are against misogyny, bigotry,racism.
Which is what the right stands for.
Their opinion on capitalism does not make them Nazis.
Liberals are Democrat voters. Not Republicans.
I mean the word "libtard" is the rights slur against liberals.
Obviously they don't like liberals. Because they don't share ideologies.
For fucks sake.
Must be psyop to try to convince everyone liberals are right wing.
I always get so much second hand embarrassment from clueless liberals trying to condescendingly explain their poor understanding of politics to vastly more knowledgeable people. It's like watching a primary school student lecturing their teacher that all cats are female and all dogs are male.
Liberalism is right-wing because it supports capitalism. It isn't the only right-wing ideology, but anyone calling themselves "progressive" that opposes moving on from capitalism to socialism is in fact holding progress back from where it needs to go.
You're confusing effect with cause, and as a consequence are mis-analyzing the key issues here. Fascism is rising because imperialism is decaying, and austerity is being brought home. It isn't rising abstractly, but due to concrete material conditions. Perpetuating capitalism perpetuates the rise in fascism, so liberals, like it or not, are ineffectively fighting fascism by supporting the very system that gives rise to it.
As for what I do personally, I organize with a communist party, one that focuses on unionization, striking, protesting, and educating the working classes. I don't sit on my hands for years at a time waiting for the next genocidal democrat to vote for, but instead make political activism a part of my life. Trying to claim that leftists are all infiltrators or grifters for having principles and coherent political analysis is absurd.
First of all, Sweden doesn't have socialism to begin with. You're right that capitalism decaying means their safety nets have a time limit, but they subsidize them via imperialism. Socialism refers to an economy where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working classes are in charge of the state.
As for your point on "sheep" and "people who challenge things," a lot of this is again trying to look at the effects of class society and presuming it to be the cause. The superstructure is shaped by the base, which is reinforced by the superstructure. The superstructure does not create the base.
Liberals are right-wing, because, regardless of intentions, they contribute to the perpetuation of capitalism and the rise in fascism. It has nothing to do with what they want the outcome to be, and everything to do with what they actually do.
Dawg you guys OPENLY VOTED for genocide not even 2 years ago, is your memory that poor? Biden/Harris oversaw the incineration of countless thousands, supporting it the whole way, arming it, repeating disgusting blood libel about Hamas mass rapes and 40 beheaded babies to justify it, and sending riot cops to beat us down when we protested.
Some leftists were reading out the names of murdered Palestinian kids at the DNC and these liberal freaks fucking plugged their ears and/or laughed because they know they crossed the rubicon, they know they're fucking nazis.
You actively voted for a pro-genocide candidate, you hemmed and hawwed, equivocating and condemning resistance until the evil was undeniable, and then you fell silent, and now you're pretending to have always been against this. As the Arabic saying goes, you killed the victim and now march in his funeral. You made your bed, now you must lie in it
I mean if you're under feudal relations supporting capitalism makes you progressive, but right now we're operating under socialized production with capitalists constraining production around exchange value so yeah supporting maintaining capitalism is right wing. Let socialized production benefit society.
Arguably, all parties within a liberal democracy are liberal in ideology. Republicans are just the right wing of that liberal system, Dems are to the left of the repubs but both still liberal. In Australia the leading conservative party is quite literally called The Liberal Party.
If we were to look at basic leftist theory they always regard liberals as non left. The argument is that liberals just protect the liberties of the priviledged class, typically the wealth owning class. They treat the workers like wage slaves, throwing them a bone to keep them quiet, but when historically being forced to choose between having the workers attain same level of liberties, the liberals always chose to surpress that, break unions or even multiple times directly allow fascist overtake.
you are right that in us this is presented as opposition, but any serious leftist will categorically deny that as absurd. One good indicator is for example how the genocide in gaza is bipartizan or even the war in iran. They protect same interests. They do not serve the voter.
Liberals are not conservative. They are against misogyny, bigotry,racism.
So right-wing Female supremacists, Trans supremacists and Afro-supremacists.
That's your problem there.
If all of them are complacent with rampant problems in liberal democracies like:
Campaign fraud
Worker exploitation
Imperialist propaganda
Bribes
Blackmail
Inside trading
Usury
Private gambling institutions
Landlords
Consumer good poisoning
Monopolized rent consumer goods
Then THEY'RE NOT LEFT-WING!
And the US hasn't had a left-wing party, not even a social democratic one, since the 1990s,
as social democratic parties only seem to thrive if there's a socialist nation to look up to
and the Soviet Union fell apart as it lacked resources (coal) to do anything against the US petrodollar scheme,
That's why Bill Clinton had been called a Repubic-lite during his reign
and Obama never delivered on his "Hope & Change".
The only semi-left-wing ideas I see coming from US contemporaries "progressives",
is that they're pro-green, because that at least will help people have the resources to go left in the future.
The right stands for a ruling merchant class and a gatekeeping judicial class.
The judicial class has noble ideas for itself as a ruling class,
but they need campaign money in order to be elected as a ruler,
which the merchant class has in spades, but want their favorable laws for them to be implemented in return.
And thus the merchant class becomes the ruling class and the judicial class their gatekeepers.
That's what the right-wing stands for, unless they're even more regressive
and long for a kings and priests to rule over them.
Centrists, social democratic wing like FDR, try to curb the power of the merchant class,
but a true left wing will replace it with a ruling engineering class and gatekeeping scholar class that will
replace liberal democracy with a people's democracy that can focus on creating a classless society,
because only a people's democracy can tackle the issue of campaign fraud,
which is systemic in a liberal democracy.
And this systemic problem becomes larger and larger the more a society automates
as it causes the power of merchants to be more and more concentrated.
The US democratic party is only slowly returning to become a social democratic party
with Zohran Mamdami firmly in the democratic socialist side.
But looking from the outside, the US is like the Star Control II Ur-Quan alien race, where the US democratic party plays the role of the Kzer-za that wants the rest of the world/galaxy enslaved and the US republican party playing the role of the bloodthirsty Kohr-Ah that wants the rest of the world dead. The only thing missing in the US is a civil war between the two.
My formative childhood years were spent listening to "good, non-bigoted" liberals talk about "killing terrorists" who "hate democracy" because of their "tribal culture".
No, the Republicans were simply repeating the phrase "glass the middle east" with their eyes rolled back in ecstasy. Compared to that, the Victorian-era racism of liberals trying to bring civilization spread democracy got a pass for sounding slightly less hitlerian. This dynamic may sound familiar
Liberalism can claim to stand for whatever, it's still a fact that liberal governments participated in wars, invasions, regime change operations, economic warfare, genocide.
Liberalism obscures the systemic nature of problems by focusing on and promoting Individualist ideals. The reason liberalism is in crisis is that it doesn't work, not that it's not implemented correctly.
It's fun watching you define liberalism out of existence. You've already made it so the Democrats and their supporters aren't liberal by your own definition
Liberal is against bigotry of any kind. That’s a core foundation. It supports equality.
The core foundation of liberalism is capitalism.
They are the party of merchants and lawmakers
that rebelled against against the kings and theocrats of their time.
Since the US has just two parties by design, it makes both parties tent parties,
that is to say that there's multiple parties of different ideologies inside the party.
The way I look at it is that the US democratic party went from
white supremacist to social democratic (Kennedy) to liberal (Clinton).
Republicans are currently dominated by Zion-Anglo male supremacist racists together with other pro-white racists.
Why are you under the impression that only ***pro-***white racist are alt right and all other kinds are liberals?
Because most other kinds are being suppressed by the pro-white racists, so they're not going to join the Republican party.
One of the few that still joins forces with the Republicans, for example Zionists or Falun Dafa, assume that they can rule over them.
You can hate whites. Mexicans. Jews. Men, etc. Any support of group discrimination is right wing by its definition because liberals specifically is against bigotry.
It's socialists that are against bigotry.
Liberal are just capitalists.
92 Comments
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 27 pts · 160d
Or even if it's American but leftist, because if it indicts the antifascist bonafides of the Democratic party then it must be dastardly Russian lies
GaumBeist@lemmy.ml · 21 pts · 159d
You fool, you absolute bingus. You have fallen for one of the classic blunders, for I, in my infinite wisdom, know that all states are bad. And all equally so at that. 😎
Formfiller@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 159d
All American media is Israeli owned propaganda now thanks to Ellison
Alvaro@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 15 pts · 159d
Let's be honest, no government is trusted and truthful.
Some are obviously worse than others, but to trust any of them blindly is stupid.
mistermodal@lemmy.ml · 22 pts · 159d
[murdering thousands of people] guys do you realize your leaders are as bad as mine? can you be serious? i'm trying to elect White Obama 3
Alvaro@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 159d
What?
hamid@crazypeople.online · 10 pts · 159d
BiteSizedZeitGeist@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 159d
Facebook vibes
hamid@crazypeople.online · 5 pts · 158d
You see yourself in the pic and don't like it
BiteSizedZeitGeist@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 158d
What pic?
hamid@crazypeople.online · 3 pts · 158d
The rhino pooping pic. The "I'm in the picture and I don't like it" is one of the default options for reporting things. Was a joke
BiteSizedZeitGeist@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 158d
You're in the rhino pooping pic?
Anarki_@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -2 pts · 158d
Classic hamid with the idiot take.
hamid@crazypeople.online · 6 pts · 158d
Classic I don't know or think about you with the even more of an idiot take
Anarki_@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -2 pts · 158d
Thought enough to reply <3
hamid@crazypeople.online · 3 pts · 158d
I will never see another one of your posts again though, please block me or better yet delete your account so no one has to see you. Trust me no one wants to.
Anarki_@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -2 pts · 158d
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Want fries with your salt?
Smackyroon@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 157d
I love it! ha ha!
myszka@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 159d
It's funny how deciding which side is truthful is based on which side you belong to. It's also amusing seeing how people come up with myriads of proofs their side is right when the only true argument is "my interests go along with theirs". And it's tragic that both sides kind of tell the truth at the same time however contradicting it is...
m532@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 158d
Well there's one side that's based on science and one side that's based on idealism (the belief that all people are jedi and can control reality with their minds alone).
crandlecan@mander.xyz · 1 pts · 153d
Dumb fuck is dumb
Smackyroon@lemmy.ml · -2 pts · 153d
Cope liberal
BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 159d
I don’t trust any of these mfs, and you shouldn’t either
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 159d
I can understand not trusting the US Empire, Israel, etc, but why not trust the PRC? I'd rather trust a socialist country with a functional democratic governance over capitalist countries.
bobzer@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 159d
I swear none of you guys have actually lived in China haha.
The Chinese political system is nepotism first, plutocracy second. Just like the US. The only difference is they're much more sane in public. The benefits of a shame based society.
If anyone can beat 7 years in Kunming, let me know how I'm wrong.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 10 pts · 159d
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people's democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Moreover, the economy in the PRC is socialist, with public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China's success.
The US Empire, on the other hand, has private ownership as principle, with top-down "democracy." Candidates are pre-selected, and term limits ensure that even if a genuine socialist won, they would not be able to sufficiently change the system. It's designed for maintaining the dominance of capital.
I highly recommend Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we've learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
bobzer@lemmy.zip · 10 pts · 159d
With all due respect, and apologies for not reading the book first (I will get to it when I have time). Have you just read the theory, or have you lived the implementation?
Because unfortunately, they can be different in practice. In my experience of the discussions I've had with my Chinese friends, and the amount of gossip I've heard about local political dynasties and KTV prostitutes, I think the ideal and the reality is very different. Something you could also say about the US.
QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml · 19 pts · 159d
China isn't perfect, none of us pretend it is. I hear and partake in the gossip too, the stories about connections and KTV backrooms (and more you've probably yet to even hear of). But here's the thing I've seen firsthand, especially when I visit family in the countryside: the villages that had dirt roads and no running water when I was a kid now have high-speed rail stops, 5G, and clinics that actually stock medicine.
And yeah, people complain, gossip, spread rumours. Of course they do, we're human too. But the trust isn't blind. It's earned. When a pilot program for rural healthcare or poverty alleviation works in one county, they scale it to the province. When something fails, they tweak it or scrap it. You see it in the towns that went from abject poverty to being connected, electrified, and lifted up in a single generation.
Even the sources you'd expect to be critical can't ignore it. Harvard's Ash Center ran the longest independent survey of Chinese public opinion, interviewing over 32,000 people between 2003 and 2016. They found satisfaction with the central government at 95.5% in the final wave. Edelman's 2022 Trust Barometer put China at 91% trust in government, the US at 39%. These aren't state media. They're Western institutions. They see the same trend we feel on the ground.
That's possible because of how our democratic system actually works. Democracy isn't just about voting for different parties or the spectacle of elections. It's about whether people are heard and whether their lives get better. If you think Chinese people aren't being heard, or that the feedback doesn't translate into action, you're plainly wrong. The proof isn't in the theory. It's in the roads, the rails, and the fact that trust stays high even when the gossip is rampant (who doesn't love a bit of gossip).
bobzer@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 159d
Thank you for that. I really appreciate this post and it resonates with me. I wouldn't have stayed there for so long if I didn't love it too. But I can't deal with the rhetoric on .ml that acts like it's a utopia with no justified dissent.
There is absolutely a functioning democracy, but it isn't immune to nepotism or greed, just like everywhere else. It's also capable of manufacturing suffering.
The two people who remain in my thoughts the most from my time there were the 80 year old couple who worked as parking attendants in my building so they could stay in a single room partition in the garage with a kerosene heater. This was in 2011, in the center of Kunming. Not one of the rural villages in the mountains. They could have been provided for but they weren't. It's not a utopia, but it is a great country full of wonderful people.
QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml · 15 pts · 159d
That couple in Kunming. No amount of progress erases that. They deserved better.
But, so much has changed since then. Even just since 2021. Housing market cooling down, 996 ruled illegal by the Supreme People's Court, new protections for delivery riders rolling out in Zhejiang, Guangdong. And the corruption crackdowns, "Tigers and flies" clearly wasn't just propaganda.
On .ml people seem tired of the constant negative spin on China, so they swing hard the other way. Sometimes too hard (though I've yet to see it too many times). And, even folks here can still slip into old "China bad" habits (seen a lot of this recently). Like saying China does nothing for the Global South when you've got the Ethiopia-Djibouti railway, Gwadar Port, vaccine donations, debt relief and much more showing how patently false that is.
I'll just say it plain. I think China's model, the way we do democracy, foreign policy, the whole political economy, is the best working option we've got right now. Not because it's perfect, but because it actually moves the needle for hundreds of millions. It's not even playing the same game as the Euro-Amerikan hegemony that's been exporting crisis forever. Why throw out the good, or spend all day demonizing it, when so much worse is happening way closer to home for most people on here. Stick in their eye vs a speck in mine, yknow?
Edit: a graph just to show how much things have changed
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 159d
We have comrades within China who lived there most or all of their life, yes.
bobzer@lemmy.zip · -3 pts · 159d
And I am unfortunately in contact with real Americans who won't shut up about the glorious Trump regime too....
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 159d
You do realize you're using anecdotes to dismiss China, but don't tolerate anecdotes that counter that? It's almost like you already made up your mind.
Go and read sources, check how most Chinese people consider their government democratic according to western NGOs (so you can't blame the government for bias/meddling), same as with Vietnam, and how low western liberal democracies score in the same reports. Check statistics of the insane material harm that Japan and western regimes did to these countries, and how they still recovered, how China lifted 800 million out of poverty, how their lives keep getting better day after day while most people in our countries infrastructure is crumbling down. Or how most Chinese people own their homes, while most of us can only hope to own a house if we come from wealth or got enough support and luck to end with a very well paid job (and a mortgage that we'll pay for years to come).
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 159d
I have never lived in China, no, but the textbook I provided is an overview of the real systems that exist, flaws and all, combined with the theoretical reasoning for the structures and the reasons they have changed over time, their history. That's why I added that socialist democracy is imperfect, but it stands in stark contrast to the utter failure that is capitalist democracy, and I listed the reasons why.
bobzer@lemmy.zip · -5 pts · 159d
The Anna's archive link on that page is dead unfortunately, I'll try to find it but do you have one handy?
Memes aside, you know it's all propaganda though right?
Even if you want to gloss it up as the "the revolution protecting itself" the PRC isn't going to go out and admit "there's flaws in our system", much less "our government is run by a bunch of horny greedy assholes just like everywhere else".
--edit--
Though I agree the damage those assholes can do is limited by the system much more than the US which is a failed state.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 159d
I don't have a link, unfortunately.
Either way, the PRC does admit to flaws and problems. The method of criticism and self-criticism is applied in China. Further, the government isn't run by a "bunch of horny greedy assholes." Corruption exists to a certain degree, but the CPC regularly cracks down on this, rather than allowing it to flourish. It seems, above all, that you're letting your distrust of government in general cause you to magnify problems in China beyond their real existence in order to equate it to capitalist states.
entwine@programming.dev · -7 pts · 159d
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 159d
What's wrong with Marxism? Why not engage with Marxists? Further, I know many Lemmy.ml users are anarchists or even liberals, we aren't all communists.
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 159d
Lol this has the vibe of "Just FYI, don't try to fight those trained kickboxers"
tunneltoast@mastodon.social · -5 pts · 160d
@Smackyroon only ukranian and european flags should be in the top side lol american flag should deffo be in the lower side
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 160d
anotherspinelessdem@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 160d
"America is Russia getit?"
tunneltoast@mastodon.social · -8 pts · 159d
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 11 pts · 159d
You got it backwards, the US has been hell to the rest of the world for decades (and to their own indigenous population much longer than that). Modern Russia only exists because the US sabotaged and illegally destroyed the USSR, even though the people living in it voted for it to remain. Then they got Yeltsin elected by blasting propaganda and misinformation, and after their legislature didn't want him to unilaterally destroy the country, he sent fucking tanks to it. All of this happened because of US meddling, that's the "democracy" and "freedom" they brought to Russia and elsewhere.
tunneltoast@mastodon.social · -5 pts · 159d
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 159d
Can you make your trolling more funny at least?
tunneltoast@mastodon.social · -6 pts · 159d
@orc_princess what trolling? Im agreeing w you I thought at least and you with me lol
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 159d
Yeah, who even put that guy in charge??
menas@lemmy.wtf · -7 pts · 159d
mistermodal@lemmy.ml · 21 pts · 159d
Thomas Jefferson raped a 15 year old girl and enslaved her offspring. Scream this at every American you meet. Now that's proper propaganda
Zerush@lemmy.ml · -9 pts · 159d
Not Liberals, simply stupid and ignorant people which believe everything what mainstream media say. With a cultured and informed people, the USA would be a full democracy and Trump in jail since years.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 14 pts · 159d
No, this cannot exist in capitalism, and it is not a problem of culture, but the mode of production.
Cassa@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -10 pts · 160d
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 160d
"Teehee i support multiple nazi armies, u mad?"
convectionfusion@lemmy.world · -6 pts · 160d
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 160d
Lmao just saying words, truly everyone is 12 now
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 14 pts · 160d
What we do with our butts is none of your business
Fuckfuckmyfuckingass@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 160d
Yeah!
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 159d
Very fitting name lmao
daannii@lemmy.world · -19 pts · 160d
Lemmy right wing. Not liberals.
Liberals are anti trump. Only right wing people support trump.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 32 pts · 159d
Liberals are right-wing.
daannii@lemmy.world · -17 pts · 159d
Not in the U.S they aren't. They are progressives. Not necessarily anti capitalist but they are fully social progressives.
Please explain how a social progressive is the same as a neo Nazi.
Definition
Noun
a supporter of policies that are socially progressive and promote social welfare. "she dissented from the decision, joined by the court's liberals"
a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise
Now libertarian is a different story.
But you can all Google the definition of both because there seems to be a lot of people who are promoting that liberals are right wingers. And that's literally the opposite of what they are.
Yes I understand the middle has shifted. But that's normal and has always happened throughout history.
Liberals are not conservative. They are against misogyny, bigotry,racism.
Which is what the right stands for.
Their opinion on capitalism does not make them Nazis.
Liberals are Democrat voters. Not Republicans.
I mean the word "libtard" is the rights slur against liberals.
Obviously they don't like liberals. Because they don't share ideologies.
For fucks sake. Must be psyop to try to convince everyone liberals are right wing.
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml · 20 pts · 159d
I always get so much second hand embarrassment from clueless liberals trying to condescendingly explain their poor understanding of politics to vastly more knowledgeable people. It's like watching a primary school student lecturing their teacher that all cats are female and all dogs are male.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 19 pts · 159d
Liberalism is right-wing because it supports capitalism. It isn't the only right-wing ideology, but anyone calling themselves "progressive" that opposes moving on from capitalism to socialism is in fact holding progress back from where it needs to go.
daannii@lemmy.world · -15 pts · 159d
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 14 pts · 159d
You're confusing effect with cause, and as a consequence are mis-analyzing the key issues here. Fascism is rising because imperialism is decaying, and austerity is being brought home. It isn't rising abstractly, but due to concrete material conditions. Perpetuating capitalism perpetuates the rise in fascism, so liberals, like it or not, are ineffectively fighting fascism by supporting the very system that gives rise to it.
As for what I do personally, I organize with a communist party, one that focuses on unionization, striking, protesting, and educating the working classes. I don't sit on my hands for years at a time waiting for the next genocidal democrat to vote for, but instead make political activism a part of my life. Trying to claim that leftists are all infiltrators or grifters for having principles and coherent political analysis is absurd.
daannii@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 159d
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 159d
First of all, Sweden doesn't have socialism to begin with. You're right that capitalism decaying means their safety nets have a time limit, but they subsidize them via imperialism. Socialism refers to an economy where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working classes are in charge of the state.
As for your point on "sheep" and "people who challenge things," a lot of this is again trying to look at the effects of class society and presuming it to be the cause. The superstructure is shaped by the base, which is reinforced by the superstructure. The superstructure does not create the base.
Liberals are right-wing, because, regardless of intentions, they contribute to the perpetuation of capitalism and the rise in fascism. It has nothing to do with what they want the outcome to be, and everything to do with what they actually do.
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 17 pts · 159d
Easier to imagine conspiracies everywhere than to accept the political consequences of supporting enslavement and genocide
daannii@lemmy.world · -15 pts · 159d
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 159d
Dawg you guys OPENLY VOTED for genocide not even 2 years ago, is your memory that poor? Biden/Harris oversaw the incineration of countless thousands, supporting it the whole way, arming it, repeating disgusting blood libel about Hamas mass rapes and 40 beheaded babies to justify it, and sending riot cops to beat us down when we protested.
Some leftists were reading out the names of murdered Palestinian kids at the DNC and these liberal freaks fucking plugged their ears and/or laughed because they know they crossed the rubicon, they know they're fucking nazis.
You actively voted for a pro-genocide candidate, you hemmed and hawwed, equivocating and condemning resistance until the evil was undeniable, and then you fell silent, and now you're pretending to have always been against this. As the Arabic saying goes, you killed the victim and now march in his funeral. You made your bed, now you must lie in it
daannii@lemmy.world · -11 pts · 159d
Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 159d
You voted for genocide.
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml · 11 pts · 159d
One post ago you were saying, and I quote "No liberal supports [Genocide]. Literally none."
Now you're trying to pivot to "well I don't personally support genocide (though I did vote for it"
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 10 pts · 159d
You are a parody of dipshit nazi liberals
mistermodal@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 159d
Liberalism and conservatism are both offshoots of economic liberalism, favoring the rights of private property owners. Read a book
daannii@lemmy.world · -12 pts · 159d
OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 159d
I mean if you're under feudal relations supporting capitalism makes you progressive, but right now we're operating under socialized production with capitalists constraining production around exchange value so yeah supporting maintaining capitalism is right wing. Let socialized production benefit society.
king_comrade@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 159d
Arguably, all parties within a liberal democracy are liberal in ideology. Republicans are just the right wing of that liberal system, Dems are to the left of the repubs but both still liberal. In Australia the leading conservative party is quite literally called The Liberal Party.
daannii@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 159d
gorikan@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 159d
If we were to look at basic leftist theory they always regard liberals as non left. The argument is that liberals just protect the liberties of the priviledged class, typically the wealth owning class. They treat the workers like wage slaves, throwing them a bone to keep them quiet, but when historically being forced to choose between having the workers attain same level of liberties, the liberals always chose to surpress that, break unions or even multiple times directly allow fascist overtake.
you are right that in us this is presented as opposition, but any serious leftist will categorically deny that as absurd. One good indicator is for example how the genocide in gaza is bipartizan or even the war in iran. They protect same interests. They do not serve the voter.
daannii@lemmy.world · -12 pts · 159d
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 159d
Jesus christ you have a dog's brain
"Hey you are being treated as an animal"
"Um that's not what my master says, stop telling lies"
folaht@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 159d
So right-wing Female supremacists, Trans supremacists and Afro-supremacists.
That's your problem there.
If all of them are complacent with rampant problems in liberal democracies like:
Then THEY'RE NOT LEFT-WING!
And the US hasn't had a left-wing party, not even a social democratic one, since the 1990s,
as social democratic parties only seem to thrive if there's a socialist nation to look up to
and the Soviet Union fell apart as it lacked resources (coal) to do anything against the US petrodollar scheme,
That's why Bill Clinton had been called a Repubic-lite during his reign
and Obama never delivered on his "Hope & Change".
The only semi-left-wing ideas I see coming from US
contemporaries"progressives",is that they're pro-green, because that at least will help people have the resources to go left in the future.
The right stands for a ruling merchant class and a gatekeeping judicial class.
The judicial class has noble ideas for itself as a ruling class,
but they need campaign money in order to be elected as a ruler,
which the merchant class has in spades, but want their favorable laws for them to be implemented in return.
And thus the merchant class becomes the ruling class and the judicial class their gatekeepers.
That's what the right-wing stands for, unless they're even more regressive
and long for a kings and priests to rule over them.
Centrists, social democratic wing like FDR, try to curb the power of the merchant class,
but a true left wing will replace it with a ruling engineering class and gatekeeping scholar class that will replace liberal democracy with a people's democracy that can focus on creating a classless society,
because only a people's democracy can tackle the issue of campaign fraud,
which is systemic in a liberal democracy.
And this systemic problem becomes larger and larger the more a society automates
as it causes the power of merchants to be more and more concentrated.
The US democratic party is only slowly returning to become a social democratic party
with Zohran Mamdami firmly in the democratic socialist side.
But looking from the outside, the US is like the Star Control II Ur-Quan alien race, where the US democratic party plays the role of the Kzer-za that wants the rest of the world/galaxy enslaved and the US republican party playing the role of the bloodthirsty Kohr-Ah that wants the rest of the world dead. The only thing missing in the US is a civil war between the two.
daannii@lemmy.world · -12 pts · 159d
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 13 pts · 159d
My formative childhood years were spent listening to "good, non-bigoted" liberals talk about "killing terrorists" who "hate democracy" because of their "tribal culture".
daannii@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 159d
RiverRock@lemmy.ml · 10 pts · 159d
No, the Republicans were simply repeating the phrase "glass the middle east" with their eyes rolled back in ecstasy. Compared to that, the Victorian-era racism of liberals trying to
bring civilizationspread democracy got a pass for sounding slightly less hitlerian. This dynamic may sound familiargoferking0@lemmy.sdf.org · 7 pts · 159d
And sadly the democrats post 9/11. We'll that just lifted the mask off. Been more like since Korean War
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 11 pts · 159d
Liberalism can claim to stand for whatever, it's still a fact that liberal governments participated in wars, invasions, regime change operations, economic warfare, genocide.
Liberalism obscures the systemic nature of problems by focusing on and promoting Individualist ideals. The reason liberalism is in crisis is that it doesn't work, not that it's not implemented correctly.
daannii@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 159d
orc_princess@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 159d
If being in favor of financial capitalism doesn't make you "right wing" nothing does lol
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 159d
It's fun watching you define liberalism out of existence. You've already made it so the Democrats and their supporters aren't liberal by your own definition
daannii@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 159d
Democratic people are liberal. That's actually the definition I have provided you.
The one that is universal.
You can make up your own definition.
I can say dogs have wings. Doesn't make it true.
folaht@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 134d
The core foundation of liberalism is capitalism.
They are the party of merchants and lawmakers
that rebelled against against the kings and theocrats of their time.
Since the US has just two parties by design, it makes both parties tent parties,
that is to say that there's multiple parties of different ideologies inside the party.
The way I look at it is that the US democratic party went from
white supremacist to social democratic (Kennedy) to liberal (Clinton).
Republicans are currently dominated by Zion-Anglo male supremacist racists together with other pro-white racists.
Because most other kinds are being suppressed by the pro-white racists, so they're not going to join the Republican party.
One of the few that still joins forces with the Republicans, for example Zionists or Falun Dafa, assume that they can rule over them.
It's socialists that are against bigotry.
Liberal are just capitalists.
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml · 14 pts · 159d
As if Trump supporters are the only ones this meme applies to. Western liberals are just as bad in that regard