Its just perfectly normal healthy paranoid pedophilic blood cults with measurably less of several kinds if intelligence than baseline. I dont see why you have tocall them mentally ill.
Power corrupts, but we can't just make power disappear... The only logical solution is to spread it as thinly as possible amongst everyone, so it corrupts as little as possible. Ergo, anarchy.
What if instead we totally alienated a bunch of the worst people to ever exist from any consequence, built society on appeasing them at any cost, and then murdered everyone who wanted anything else,though?
I personally think thats a much better idea, and will murder you if you dont agree.
Lol usually I'm the one telling others to read Graeber.
Here's the thing, that kinda is part of human history. It is how we ended up in the society we live in today. All of these countries exist because they killed or subjugated everyone else who said otherwise.
Yes, Graeber exposes that other societies have existed and can potentially exist but that doesn't negate the history that led us to today.
A quote from Dune if I recall correctly is power attracts the corruptable, not exactly that it corrupts. So not that humans are evil but we offer positions that shouldn't be given to anyone that wants it. Mean okay I'm sure there's good people that try for elected positions for sure.
Also quote from hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, no one that seeks power should be given it. Or similar was in reference to who they elect president.
While hitchhiker's guide is comedy I think it holds well, people who seek power want to abuse it. People resultant to accept a position may be better to administer. I think, while quite different moods in their texts, they were saying the same thing. One (quite boring and dry, no pun intended, at first read) another just silly with some commentary on life.
Funny how that works cause you'd think democracy would weed others out. But gestures to democracies these days we see how things work with media manipulation. I think the hitchhiker's guide worked and well was made due to the education of the author.
So why the eff aren't we supporting system where we can cultivate ideas to improve ourselves rather than hearing media tell us not to like someone who is probably cool anyways?
Yes a north american view but right wing has been spreading and all.
I'd love it if campaigning was outlawed. You get a list of candidates and their voting history on key issues.
If people had actually looked at her voting records, Harris would have been a great choice. Her Senate voting history is pretty damn close to Bernie's.
But for some reason people still listen to campaign messaging even though it's well known politicians lie through their teeth to get elected.
Hard agree! Unless it's me of course, because my right is more right than others.
Jokes aside, it's obvious that power structures arrise in nature like cancer in a body. The socialy disadvantegous take over, and cannibalize everything.
A holocracy perhaps? I still don't have more than a vague concept of what could be attempted. I know that self-sufficiency is GOOD, and I want to encourage it asmuch as possible.
This prevents leverage and exploitation of you and your neighbours.
This, however, does not mean standing idly aside, as someone else gets exploited. It should be an ethic to help your neighbour to the point where they can be self-sufficient, as this protects YOU from them turning on you in desperate times.
I talked about anarchism with someone recently, and "evil people" was their main argument.
I've been thinking about it a lot. My point of view is that power structures give those evil people an unmatched oportunity to gain power over others. I think most of them are in politics, be it in democracy or authoritarian regimes. They are the best at climbing hierarchies and have the motivation to do so, unlike most people.
But still, it seems that having evil people in politics is somehow better than having to deal with them directly for a lot of people. It may be the fear of unknown - governments might do bad things on a much bigger scale, but at least they are predictable. That's just my interpretation though.
that said, it's pretty damned hard to defend against an attacking nation, if you don't have taxpayer funded hierachical military. hard doesn't mean impossible tho
The SDF is still around defending AANES in one of the most conflict-ridden regions of the world. They call themselves Democratic Confederalists rather than anarchists, but they are the nearest long-standing polity to anarchist ideals.
No you dont undersrand! Everything i want is made of basement kids and if i dont get it ill be sad, but if i think about making it happen ill be sad.
So i need to make sure we all just agree that dping wjat the worst monsters we can find tell us to and and killing anyone who disagrees. You disagreeing makes me feel bad.
Well, there might need to be an equal and opposite reaction in order to keep it in check. If some people are just inherently evil and desire power over others, then I imagine there would also be inherently good people and desire to protect others.
I don't think you can "prevent" this outright. That's why there's talk of "vigilance" and being "watchful" when it comes to government/democracy.
I absolutely agree with you, but this requires people to mostly think like that. And if people already mostly think like that, then it is actually almost completely irrelevant what political system we have. The question is how to establish such a mindset in most people.
Hmmm.. idk if "establishing a mindset in people" is viable tho. That kinda sounds like "make them think a certain way". I'm reminded of the adage you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink you know?
Establish customs and structures that prevent power. It needs vigilance. There's evidence that before agriculture some humans exhibited "reverse dominance hierarchy," where if someone tried to assert dominance, the group would team up and ostracise, exile, or execute them.
AFAIK, they aim so that every single person is rotated to every role (and only hold those roles for weeks before being rotated out); it's not like an election thing; it's more like a duty that everyone has to do. Whatever they're doing has been working for 3 decades.
Which, sure, would be cool to try, but I think that any system for organizing humans has a critical flaw, that being the humans. Even with a rotation, just one bad actor can screw things up a lot.
Democracy and the separation of power is such a structure that we already have. It works perfectly fine if "the group would team up" and vote people that try to assert dominance out.
We're just missing the "customs" that would make people do just that, and the question is how to establish this custom.
It was already clear that we need customs that make people not give other people power, the question that I posed was how to start those customs you talk about.
Insiders are Blessed By Their Commitment to The Tribe.
Dear Leader came to power by virtue of extraordinary merit and is the most capable tribesman in leading our Blessed In-Group against their Diabolical Out-Group. We give him our loyalty, our labor, and our wealth voluntarily, with the expectation that he will return it to us ten-fold.
And hey, look, the market is up! The Gods shine on our Glorious Hallowed Kingdom of The Virtuous And Just.
I was talking with someone a while ago about anarchism and internet moderators. I said moderators shouldn't moderate based on their feelings, because power corrupts. Moderators should hold themselves to the rules, and be removed when they fail to do so. The other person said that the principle of free association means moderators can ban whoever they want, and putting limits on bans would be tyranny.
68 Comments
Rooskie91@discuss.online · 58 pts · 151d
Crazy how we have a phrase like "power corrupts" yet refuse to treat it as a mental illness.
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 30 pts · 151d
We are being ruled over by power addicts
defaultusername@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 12 pts · 151d
just one more power bro i swear i'll stop if i just get one more power bro i swear
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 13 pts · 151d
Its just perfectly normal healthy paranoid pedophilic blood cults with measurably less of several kinds if intelligence than baseline. I dont see why you have tocall them mentally ill.
arcine@jlai.lu · 39 pts · 151d
Power corrupts, but we can't just make power disappear... The only logical solution is to spread it as thinly as possible amongst everyone, so it corrupts as little as possible. Ergo, anarchy.
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 18 pts · 151d
What if instead we totally alienated a bunch of the worst people to ever exist from any consequence, built society on appeasing them at any cost, and then murdered everyone who wanted anything else,though?
I personally think thats a much better idea, and will murder you if you dont agree.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 150d
"Human History, a Summary"
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 150d
No. Read graeber.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 150d
Lol usually I'm the one telling others to read Graeber.
Here's the thing, that kinda is part of human history. It is how we ended up in the society we live in today. All of these countries exist because they killed or subjugated everyone else who said otherwise.
Yes, Graeber exposes that other societies have existed and can potentially exist but that doesn't negate the history that led us to today.
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 150d
Part of it. So is the steam engine.
All hietory led us to today. The most recent proximal cause is not totality.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net · 0 pts · 150d
No one is saying totality. Do you not get that "a summary" means "condensed and excluding details"?
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 150d
A summary of human history:
Register@fedinsfw.app · 5 pts · 151d
I mean, there's an argument for lottery representation to centralize enough power (government) to stomp any other spikes of power (corporations)
Demdaru@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 150d
Isn't it Athens version of Denocracy rather? Everyone gets a vote and all that?
Green on the topic of anarchy I shall add xD
agent_nycto@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 149d
Yeah, but humans like efficiency and delegation, so eventually that power coagulates
village604@adultswim.fan · 18 pts · 150d
It's not that humans are inherently evil, it's that inherently evil humans exist.
The main problem is that enough people believe the lies the evil ones tell them and let them have power to fuck everyone.
Humans are tribalistic animals, and that trait is part of why it's so easy for horrible people to convince others to do horrible things.
orbitz@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 150d
A quote from Dune if I recall correctly is power attracts the corruptable, not exactly that it corrupts. So not that humans are evil but we offer positions that shouldn't be given to anyone that wants it. Mean okay I'm sure there's good people that try for elected positions for sure.
Also quote from hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, no one that seeks power should be given it. Or similar was in reference to who they elect president.
While hitchhiker's guide is comedy I think it holds well, people who seek power want to abuse it. People resultant to accept a position may be better to administer. I think, while quite different moods in their texts, they were saying the same thing. One (quite boring and dry, no pun intended, at first read) another just silly with some commentary on life.
Funny how that works cause you'd think democracy would weed others out. But gestures to democracies these days we see how things work with media manipulation. I think the hitchhiker's guide worked and well was made due to the education of the author.
So why the eff aren't we supporting system where we can cultivate ideas to improve ourselves rather than hearing media tell us not to like someone who is probably cool anyways?
Yes a north american view but right wing has been spreading and all.
village604@adultswim.fan · 3 pts · 150d
I'd love it if campaigning was outlawed. You get a list of candidates and their voting history on key issues.
If people had actually looked at her voting records, Harris would have been a great choice. Her Senate voting history is pretty damn close to Bernie's.
But for some reason people still listen to campaign messaging even though it's well known politicians lie through their teeth to get elected.
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 150d
Thats why no man should have power over others.
village604@adultswim.fan · 5 pts · 150d
Yeah, it would be great if people stopped being dicks, but don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.
WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 149d
Hard agree! Unless it's me of course, because my right is more right than others.
Jokes aside, it's obvious that power structures arrise in nature like cancer in a body. The socialy disadvantegous take over, and cannibalize everything.
A holocracy perhaps? I still don't have more than a vague concept of what could be attempted. I know that self-sufficiency is GOOD, and I want to encourage it asmuch as possible.
This prevents leverage and exploitation of you and your neighbours.
This, however, does not mean standing idly aside, as someone else gets exploited. It should be an ethic to help your neighbour to the point where they can be self-sufficient, as this protects YOU from them turning on you in desperate times.
stepan@lemmy.cafe · 14 pts · 151d
I talked about anarchism with someone recently, and "evil people" was their main argument.
I've been thinking about it a lot. My point of view is that power structures give those evil people an unmatched oportunity to gain power over others. I think most of them are in politics, be it in democracy or authoritarian regimes. They are the best at climbing hierarchies and have the motivation to do so, unlike most people.
But still, it seems that having evil people in politics is somehow better than having to deal with them directly for a lot of people. It may be the fear of unknown - governments might do bad things on a much bigger scale, but at least they are predictable. That's just my interpretation though.
lurch@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 151d
anarchism doesn't mean you can't get organised.
that said, it's pretty damned hard to defend against an attacking nation, if you don't have taxpayer funded hierachical military. hard doesn't mean impossible tho
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 2 pts · 151d
Catalonia had an army.
village604@adultswim.fan · 3 pts · 150d
That must be why they're still around, right?
Schmoo@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 149d
The SDF is still around defending AANES in one of the most conflict-ridden regions of the world. They call themselves Democratic Confederalists rather than anarchists, but they are the nearest long-standing polity to anarchist ideals.
PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 151d
Yep, I believe the absolute majority of people in power are evil because evil people seek power.
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 151d
No you dont undersrand! Everything i want is made of basement kids and if i dont get it ill be sad, but if i think about making it happen ill be sad.
So i need to make sure we all just agree that dping wjat the worst monsters we can find tell us to and and killing anyone who disagrees. You disagreeing makes me feel bad.
village604@adultswim.fan · 1 pts · 150d
That attitude is a large part of the reason people turn against anarchy.
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 150d
That you should walk away from omelas instead of killing for it? Yeah. I get that.
village604@adultswim.fan · 2 pts · 150d
No, I meant the being a condescending ass part.
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 150d
I have othermodes of critique, but ecpect youd appreciate them even less.
village604@adultswim.fan · 2 pts · 150d
The way you get people on your side is to win them over by educating them on the positives, not criticizing them.
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 150d
Provably not.
sobchak@programming.dev · 1 pts · 149d
I like the ones who stay and fight better.
dansemacabreingalone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 149d
Its the name of a parable/short story.
sobchak@programming.dev · 1 pts · 149d
So is The Ones Who Stay and Fight.
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 151d
Its the fear of the unknown. I had to deal with that too when I first learned about anarchism.
Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 12 pts · 150d
The problem is that people that want power will find ways to get power even if there's no established structures that give people power.
How do you prevent that from happening?
AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 150d
Well, there might need to be an equal and opposite reaction in order to keep it in check. If some people are just inherently evil and desire power over others, then I imagine there would also be inherently good people and desire to protect others.
I don't think you can "prevent" this outright. That's why there's talk of "vigilance" and being "watchful" when it comes to government/democracy.
Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 149d
I absolutely agree with you, but this requires people to mostly think like that. And if people already mostly think like that, then it is actually almost completely irrelevant what political system we have. The question is how to establish such a mindset in most people.
AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 149d
Hmmm.. idk if "establishing a mindset in people" is viable tho. That kinda sounds like "make them think a certain way". I'm reminded of the adage you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink you know?
sobchak@programming.dev · 1 pts · 149d
Establish customs and structures that prevent power. It needs vigilance. There's evidence that before agriculture some humans exhibited "reverse dominance hierarchy," where if someone tried to assert dominance, the group would team up and ostracise, exile, or execute them.
agent_nycto@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 149d
So all I gotta do is be the person delegated to the vigilance task and I'm golden for a takeover
sobchak@programming.dev · 0 pts · 149d
Zapatistas frequently rotate roles. There are no professional police or politicians.
agent_nycto@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 149d
No no of course not, it'll only take a minute, and hey, I did such a good job with food distribution I can do it again if you want....
sobchak@programming.dev · 1 pts · 149d
AFAIK, they aim so that every single person is rotated to every role (and only hold those roles for weeks before being rotated out); it's not like an election thing; it's more like a duty that everyone has to do. Whatever they're doing has been working for 3 decades.
agent_nycto@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 148d
Which, sure, would be cool to try, but I think that any system for organizing humans has a critical flaw, that being the humans. Even with a rotation, just one bad actor can screw things up a lot.
Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 149d
Democracy and the separation of power is such a structure that we already have. It works perfectly fine if "the group would team up" and vote people that try to assert dominance out.
We're just missing the "customs" that would make people do just that, and the question is how to establish this custom.
It was already clear that we need customs that make people not give other people power, the question that I posed was how to start those customs you talk about.
sobchak@programming.dev · 1 pts · 149d
Yeah, I think the current consensus is dual power and wait until it's either strong enough or the state is weak enough to revolt.
WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 149d
An active community of hunters, trained to recognize and hunt down such menaces.
Shunning, exile, and other more usual ordinary consequences.
nsrxn@mstdn.social · 0 pts · 149d
"people that want power will find ways to get power"
nah. probably not.
Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 149d
So how exactly do you think this all started in the first place? We didn't start out with people in power...
dan@literature.cafe · -2 pts · 150d
Abolish the concept of power
village604@adultswim.fan · 7 pts · 150d
You can't abolish thoughts. That's why the "war on terror" will never be won.
You also can't abolish things without a power structure to enforce it.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 151d
Outsiders are Evil By Nature.
Insiders are Blessed By Their Commitment to The Tribe.
Dear Leader came to power by virtue of extraordinary merit and is the most capable tribesman in leading our Blessed In-Group against their Diabolical Out-Group. We give him our loyalty, our labor, and our wealth voluntarily, with the expectation that he will return it to us ten-fold.
And hey, look, the market is up! The Gods shine on our Glorious Hallowed Kingdom of The Virtuous And Just.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 151d
If we’re just making shit up then god says I’m in charge.
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 151d
All hail lord doomer boomer!
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 151d
My god what have I done…
Doomsider@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 151d
Don't worry, the people in power are good. They said so themselves.
lugal@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 150d
Not only them but also the journalists they paid so we have 2 independent sources
Digit@lemmy.wtf · 1 pts · 149d
maybe they care
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 1 pts · 151d
I was talking with someone a while ago about anarchism and internet moderators. I said moderators shouldn't moderate based on their feelings, because power corrupts. Moderators should hold themselves to the rules, and be removed when they fail to do so. The other person said that the principle of free association means moderators can ban whoever they want, and putting limits on bans would be tyranny.