Carney says the war against Iran was ‘worth it.’ He’s wrong
https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/carney-says-the-war-against-iran-was-worth-it-hes-wrong
https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/carney-says-the-war-against-iran-was-worth-it-hes-wrong
83 Comments
AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space · 38 pts · 56d
Diplomacy is the art of saying “nice doggy” until you can find a rock — Will Rogers
grte@lemmy.ca · 19 pts · 56d
When Trump first attacked Iran Carney practically ran to the nearest microphone to tell us all how he thought it was just dandy. The guy has repeatedly expressed support for the war because that's how he feels.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -12 pts · 56d
He's been consistent about not talking about the world how people want it to be, but how it actually is.
Iran has a nuclear program. If Iran builds a nuke it would be very bad. They also support a lot of terrorism. Terrorism is bad.
If you strip away all of the ideological bullshit, the vibes about who's a good guy and who's a bad guy, all of the rationalizations about who's historically justified in attacking who, what you're left with is Iran being weakened means less terrorism, less terrorism means less war. It's imperative that they are prevented from building nuclear weapons since that represents the potential for millions of people getting killed.
ArmchairAce1944@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 56d
Iran does not want nuclear weapons. If they do end up with a nuke it is entirely due to the threat it faces from Israel.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -7 pts · 55d
This is Trumpian logic. We don't do X, but if we do X it's because of our enemies.
Stated intentions are meaningless, because everyone is lying. The fact that they are purifying uranium is what matters, not what they say.
ArmchairAce1944@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 54d
They have made it clear they do not want weapons. You NEED purified and enriched uranium (to a point) for fuel grade stuff, and there has not been the slightest shred of evidence that they ate going further than that AND no evidence whatsoever of them doing all the other shit you need for a nuclear weapon. You need a lot more than enriched uranium to make a bomb or missile warhead, even if they were going that far.
The states purpose of this is that after 1979 Israel wanted Iran to be a failed stated like they did to Iraq and Syria.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -3 pts · 54d
Yes they've SAID that, but do you make it a habit to believe what authoritarians say?
No civilian reactor needs uranium purified to more than 5%. They've purified uranium to 60%. Also the uranium they import from Russia is already purified to the level needed by their one civilian nuclear reactor. Any uranium purification happening in Iran is for a nuclear weapons program.
I hate Trump and Netanyahu too, but if they say the sky is blue, do you automatically have to agree with someone that says the sky is green?
Yeah no shit. Just as Iran wants Israel to be a failed state. That's how shit works with adversaries.
stepan@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 46d
If iran leveled tel aviv, the world would objectively be a better place. Strip away all the liberal ideological bullshit and vibes based politics, everything would be better.
AGM@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 55d
"The way I see the world is the truth. The way others see it is wrong. We must do things my way because what I say is true and what they say is wrong."
People with any critical thinking dismiss that kind of bs and evaluate for themselves. It is meaningless, empty rhetoric.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 55d
The truth isn't something you get from "evaluating" a bunch of "alt-media" websites. That's just doing the "I did my own research on the internet".
Nuclear physics is science. Iran's uranium purification project is not for civilian use, it's a nuclear weapons program. Denying this is like denying the world is flat because you choose to ignore science because you want to go along with your political allies.
The truth isn't convenient, it's not always going to conform to what your politcal group says.
AGM@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 55d
"We take the world as it is, not as we wish it to be" is a totally empty slogan. Who do you think isn't dealing with the world as they think it is? You think people who disagree are all just going around in willful fantasy? No. Of course not. Everybody is dealing with the world as they think it is. Reasonable people disagree on how the world is. The slogan tries to make an authoritative claim on having the only true worldview, which may sound great to people who don't think critically for even a second about it, or who simply share his biases about how the world is, but it's no more material than saying "We make sensible choices, not insane choices."
So, the only thing your initial comment and your subsequent reply really indicate is that you haven't actually thought about what that rhetoric means at all and you're just leaning into confirmation bias on your worldview because it feels nice to invalidate other worldviews as false while confirming your own as the one true way of seeing the world. Sorry, that's just uncritically accepting authority based on an empty feel good slogan. It's a stupid thing to do and to advocate for.
Of course, you could consider how Iran was previously subject to a nuclear agreement that they abided by, had not attempted to build nuclear weapons, had a fatwa against building nuclear weapons, repeatedly attempted to sign deals that would have included prevention of them building nuclear weapons, and even after facing existential threat have still not built nuclear weapons despite strong expert arguments that they could if they wanted to.
You want to condescendingly dismiss other people's viewpoints as just uneducated "alt-media" "I did my own research" nonsense, and yet you're not even demonstrating the capacity to see through the most basic of political rhetoric and are swallowing it down like it's your gospel.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 54d
People that choose to believe that Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program just because they hate Israel and will believe anything that anyone that opposes Israel says. It's insane really... if they had no nuclear weapons program, why would they be opposed to the IAEA doing inspections?
Hard not to be condescending when talking to people that hang on to willful ignorance in the face of science and basic logic. I've had a lot of discussions with various groups, this is the same as the "plandemic" crowd. What do you say to people that refuse to learn science, have huge gaps in their logic, and default to "alternative facts" from dodgy websites whenever discussing anything?
AGM@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 54d
The irony in the depth of your lack of intellectual self-awareness is something to behold.
stepan@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 46d
I hope Iran gets a nuclear weapon
ArmchairAce1944@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 56d
Except he doesn't seem to really want to commit to that. He is still making massive deals with US corporations and sharing massive data with the US, not to mention pushing through massive surveillance bills that only will benefit them.
kbal@fedia.io · 10 pts · 56d
"Nice doggy — go ahead and tear apart that stranger, it's totally worth it. Would you like to buy some rocks?"
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 56d
Wow. What a great metaphor.
ArmchairAce1944@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 55d
Would be nice if it was true.
MyBrainHurts@piefed.ca · 25 pts · 56d
Choice 1: PM flatters trump at zero cost to anyone anywhere.
Choice 2: PM picks a fight with trump with zero gain to anyone anywhere.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Decisions decisions decisions.
grte@lemmy.ca · 42 pts · 56d
Choice 3: Carney shuts the fuck up and doesn't look like a stupid asshole. That would have been a good one. The guy absolutely didn't have to fall over himself to support this dumbass war, multiple times.
Godort@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 56d
That is an option, but we are still in the midst of a trade war with the US, who remains out largest trading partner.
If Carney can offer platitudes that cost nothing to get some goodwill with the US that might actually help Canadians, then why the fuck not?
Ultimately, Trump (and maybe some armchair policy experts) is the only person dumb enough to not see through this ploy. It's not going to affect his position in any negative way, and has a small chance to affect it positively.
I disagree with Carney on almost all of his real policy decisions, but the man knows how to play politics, and I'd much rather he be in office than PP.
grte@lemmy.ca · 7 pts · 56d
Does this cost us nothing? I thought we were trying to pivot away from the US. How does it make us look to the rest of the world when our leadership practically sprints to support the US in violating international law?
Godort@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 56d
Yes.
This is a welcome change, but it's a slow process. I don't see why we need to suffer unnecessarily when all you need to do to keep things stable during a massive shift like this is some disingenuous compliments.
It makes us look like we are trying to calm down the crackhead with a knife by calmly agreeing with them.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 16 pts · 56d
They do NOT cost us nothing. Here's a few ways it costs Canada:
And I'm not even getting into the ways it costs us because it's a disgusting and just plain fucking wrong to applaud this completely pointless war that rained down death and suffering to countless innocents, both directly and indirectly.
And all that for what? For sucking Trump's dick which he's already forgotten anyway? Give me a break.
HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 56d
Well put, full agree.
Still think Carney is going an overall decent job, and he's 1,000,000,000,000x better than the conservatives getting in..... but this is a big miss.
ArmchairAce1944@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 55d
I wish I could upvote you twice.
MyBrainHurts@piefed.ca · -2 pts · 56d
Right... I can see the scene now "Well, I wasn't sure about going to war but then I remembered the disastrous Iran war and how Canada's Prime Minister said nice things about it so away we go!"
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 56d
What a silly thing to say. Of course the Canadian prime minister doesn't shape reality with his words. But his words matter. When Carney stood up in Davos the world listened. It is the same leader, a leader of a G7 nation, that says this. Other leaders are listening, a discourse is taking form.
grte@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 56d
Yeah, I disagree. I think it makes us look like spineless weasels who can't be relied upon if the US makes any demands of us.
MyBrainHurts@piefed.ca · -1 pts · 56d
Thankfully, no reasonable adult with any understanding of international relationships would feel the same.
edit: missed words
grte@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 56d
Right, reasonable adults are instead doing their best to look like a vassal state.
cecilkorik@lemmy.ca · 23 pts · 56d
Yeah, I mean I don't really like Carney or his policies, and I hate Trump even more, but this is clearly the only logical approach to dealing with Trump at the moment. Talk is cheap (something Carney clearly understands because he uses talk very cheaply all the time), and Trump loves flattery, and he hates being criticized, and he will irrationally lash out at anyone who does. He's proven that so many times, there's no benefit to aggravating him and giving him a target to fixate on, just let him flail around aimlessly and try to dodge his aimlessly swinging fists.
I'm getting really tired of listening to or wasting almost any attention whatsoever on what people say anymore, because it's all fucking lies anyway. I've started carefully watching what people do instead, and while I have some scathing criticisms of things Carney has done and is doing, the things he's doing also very clearly don't benefit Trump. Trying to make him out to be some Trump-friendly-crony is disingenuous and inaccurate. He's dangerous in his own way, but he's no ally to Trump and the things he's doing to distance the Canadian economy from the US and build lasting international partnerships that are going to define Canada for generations? That's significant stuff.
The frequent praise he offers to Trump is always empty, meaningless words with no real weight behind them and certainly no actions. Carney knows that, and anyone paying attention should know that. Trump is the only one who evidently doesn't know that, but it's also possible he just doesn't care. He's more interested in appearances anyway, and the appearance of having Canada appear to support him is meaningful to him even if it's meaningless in actual fact.
theuniqueone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 56d
Carney has made it clear he is a committed imperialist maybe stop excusing him?
mirshafie@europe.pub · 4 pts · 56d
How about just tell it like it is and gain influence with the countries that matter? The USA is making itself irrelevant, and the people within the USA who do matter are not impressed with their own performance as of late either.
MyBrainHurts@piefed.ca · 0 pts · 55d
The entire rest of the world combined, is where less than 30% of our exports go. For literally millions and millions of Canadian families, the USA is insanely relevant.
BurgerBaron@quokk.au · 2 pts · 56d
Yeah I don't like him but Diplomacy with the Mad King bordering our middle power land needs to be considered too.
theuniqueone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 24 pts · 56d
Can people stop excusing Carney's noted imperialism and internal oppression and hostility to first nations and environmentalists as "5-d chess" its rather disgusting that's what this thread is.
njm1314@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 56d
Now that Starmer is done Carney is gunning for most disappointing head of state.
mirshafie@europe.pub · 7 pts · 56d
Lots of people are still glazing him for that one speech where he suggested Canada should be more like the USA.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -13 pts · 56d
Neither Starmer nor Carney are heads of state. Look to King Charles if you can't stomach the details of how things work.
Sharkticon@lemmy.zip · 10 pts · 56d
Must intelligent people really play this game of Make Believe with y'all? I mean honestly? Who's buying it?
njm1314@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 56d
Lol, okay. Sure buddy.
Though if you want to talk about that sausage fingered pedophile go right ahead.
stepan@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 43d
Head executive* there happy?
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 41d
Heads of government.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 22 pts · 56d
I'm ready to try NDP at the federal level.
RainbowBlite@piefed.ca · 9 pts · 55d
We need proportional representation for this to work. The Conservatives are so ghoulish that people vote Liberal as a safety. If the left splits the vote, the Conservatives get a majority government with only 40% of the vote.
ArmchairAce1944@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 55d
The moment people have a viable alternatives to liberals they will flock to them. The libs have been a neoliberal fascist enabling party for a long time.
definitemaybe@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 55d
I doubt it, personally, but even if you're right, Single Transferable Vote would be a much better system to allow people to vote for alternative parties with similar ideals instead of feeling compelled to vote strategically.
FPTP is one of the biggest problems in Canada, and it's upstream of just about every other issue of significance.
Scotty@scribe.disroot.org · 15 pts · 55d
The 'Canadian Dimension' is a propaganda outlet frequently conveying pro-China and anti-Western - including anti-Canada - narratives.
I don't support the war in Iran, but this is an unreliable, pro-authoritarian propaganda organization with a strong selection bias in both topics and narratives.
kent_eh@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 54d
Its also an inaccurate oversimplification of what Carney actually said
nik282000@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 55d
Weird how a very vocal population of Lemmy and Reddit will shout "China is good now!" When I mention that they are actively and openly trying to manipulate Canadian politics. And how importing boatloads of Chinese developed tech is like putting a spy in every home and business network.
ZombieCyborgFromOuterSpace@piefed.ca · 13 pts · 56d
Meanwhile, every grocery corporation across Canada, that already had a huge windfall from the COVID pandemic by artificially growing prices, are doing it again thanks to this war and the energy crisis it created, as if we weren't being gouged enough already. But Mr. World Banker over here thinks it's fucking worth it?
Fuck him and the horse he fucking rode in on. Fucking rich elite ass hole.
Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 55d
It's 100% worth it for Trump.
It worked as a distraction from the charges of child rape and trafficking against him.
He lost nothing. Only all of us lost. We don't matter to him.
tyler@programming.dev · 7 pts · 56d
I mean…it was pretty worth it to reduce the effect of the U.S. on the global economy.
mirshafie@europe.pub · 16 pts · 56d
As an Iranian I'm devastated that they killed so many people and bombed cultural sites. I'm mad that they destroyed infrastructure. I'm frustrated that their actions strengthened the religious right.
But I'm weirdly proud that their empire came to Iran to die. I'm proud that Iran just flat out refused to sell out to capital, and had made their homework.
tyler@programming.dev · 4 pts · 56d
Oh don't get me wrong, the destruction is terrible. The deaths are terrible. The cultural sites are incredibly sad. But this could be like the death of the Ottoman empire, the Roman empire, the Qing dynasty, etc.
All of this being led by Israel for decades of course, fomenting hatred of the Iranian people and anyone not Israeli (even Jews that spoke out against Israel). Of course Iran had time to prepare and make sure that they made the war count.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 56d
They're getting $300B from this deal. How much of that is going to get to the Iranian people, and how much will the IRGC just keep for themselves?
mirshafie@europe.pub · 6 pts · 55d
First of all, the IRGC is not the government of Iran. The IRGC is Iran's second army. It gets hyped up in Western media for propaganda purposes.
However, the IRGC does have construction companies tied to it that likely will get a lot of the reconstruction contracts. I don't think that's what you're insinuating, though.
I might clarify that "selling out to capital" is not the same as getting money. Capital is the ruling class that wants to privatize the national wealth of all countries, and Iran is a major pain in their ass.
Ilixtze@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 56d
another white warmonger , not surprising.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 56d
*another warmonger, not surprising.
Leviathan@fedinsfw.app · 5 pts · 56d
Carney is a fucking clown.
ArmchairAce1944@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 56d
He gave a nice, anti-socialist and anti-labor union speech at Davos, but then immediately turned back on it and went to business as usual. For all of his talk about wanting to break Canada from the US, his attempts are haphazard and he is still committed to making massive deals with US corporations at the expense of Canadians.
Leviathan@fedinsfw.app · 5 pts · 55d
Canadians need to stop thinking of politics in terms of a binary system, it really doesn't help that we never got the ranked voting we wanted from Trudeau. But I'm sick of seeing people get annoyed with Liberals and turn to Conservatives, it gets from bad to worse because as a country we can't think outside of those boxes.
I know I'm placing to the choir on this site but it gets so fucking frustrating.
FaceDeer@fedia.io · 4 pts · 56d
From the perspective of someone who's leading a country that's around number 3 or so on Trump's "invade and annex" list, having America lose a war against Iran in an expensive and humiliating manner is very much worth it.
Threeskittiesinatrenchcoat@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 56d
He's wrong. Period.
This was the single biggest US foreign policy blunder I've ever witnessed. The fact Trumps own country isn't tearing him apart right now is a testament to his cult like grip on the GOP.
GodofLies@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 56d
Reading the comments and it can be summed up in:
Where does Carney's integrity start and end, or the lack of. Compared with - political manoeuvring. One is actually for humanity and the other is just an excuse.
I for one, push for the long term, sustainable well being of humankind, not just Canadians. Our politics and government is no different than the US - it's filled with insincere, unfaithful people towards Canadians and humanity all for short term solutions while bowing to external influences that aren't Canadians. Our entire system is barbaric, stuck in the middle ages, the rich have more or less hijacked the system and people are still taking it for granted - even those that are elected in.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 56d
Obama's Stuxnet cyberattack destroyed 1000 uranium enrichment centrifuges in Iran at a cost of $1-2 billion (exact cost still classified).
Trump's military action destroyed about 20x that number, but at 150x to 300x the cost. Such beautiful deals. Unbelievable deals. But Stuxnet didn't have the added benefit of distracting the public from the Epstein files, so there's that.
ProudCanadianCitizen@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 55d
We must bear in mind that this was said by a pious and devout Roman Catholic about a Muslim country.
The Middle East is not just about Jewish vs Muslims. The entire Crusades were about Roman Catholics vs the Muslims as well. It just gets obfuscated by the 'Jewish/Israeli/Palestinian' thing and the Catholics get a 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 56d
OK northern Donald trump. Are you trying to appease him or are you just a fucking moron?
skozzii@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 54d
Worth it for Canada, yes. It's cost the US trillions of dollars and distracted Trump from attacking us. They no longer have a strong position in CUSMA negotiations as their economy is in shambles.
For Americans it's a terrible terrible thing, but Canada will be just fine.
CoolSouthpaw@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 54d
Carney has been otherwise good, but he's very wrong about this. Very wrong.
Sirius006@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 53d
Was ?
melsaskca@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 55d
Spin city, baby. Let's see how far we can stretch the truth.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · -9 pts · 56d
If we keep repeating that Iran didn't have a nuclear weapons program, maybe it will become true?
The facts are that Iran gets uranium from Russian already purified to the level needed for their one civilian nuclear reactor. Any purification beyond this is for a nuclear weapons program. No civilian reactor uses uranium purifies above 5% Iran had uranium purified to 60%. Not quite enough to build a nuclear device (though it could be used for a dirty bomb) but way more than for civilian uses.
The IAEA reported that Iran was hiding nuclear material. Geiger counters don't lie.
All in all, Iran was maintaining a capability of building a nuke so that at any time they could have one within a year. Not keeping a loaded weapon, but having some ammunition at the ready.
They still have that material, but reports are they've buried it to prevent it from being moved. There's still some concern obviously, but it will take more than a year for them to construct a nuke now.
Obviously it would've been better to have not cancelled Obama's deal. Trump killed that in his first term, Biden couldn't get a new one negotiated, it wouldn't have mattered if he did since Trump would've just cancelled that too. Maybe Kamala Harris could've gotten Obama's deal reinstated, but dumbass Americans gotta bring back Trump because "both sides".
Carney looks at the world as it is, not how we want it to be. We don't want there to be an Iranian nuclear weapons program, so out of political expediency and "going along to get along" many people just pretend that there is no Iranian nuclear weapons program. We want there to be a US President trustworthy enough to be able to negotiate a deal with Iran, but that's not Trump. Given who is in power in Iran, who is in power in the US, who is in power in Israel, the options were this or there someday being a true believer take power in Iran that fires a nuke at Tel Aviv. Many on this site might be psychopaths that want this, but people that have actual empathy don't want millions of people to die.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 56d
What a load of bullshit. This war has done nothing to Iran's nuclear program on the contrary it has proven right the hardliners that see a nuclear program as the only guarantee for regime survival. They never ever will make a deal with powers that have consistently broken ceasefires and used negotiations as stalling tactics. This flagrantly illegal war has killed off any chance for a nuclear deal for a generation. Or do you expect a ground invasion to take care of it?
If anything the one good thing to come out of it is that Iran has figured out that it doesn't need a nuclear program to project power, they can just close the Strait of Hormuz.
You're parotting the Israeli doctrine that in the Middle East might makes right. A profoundly misguided and counterproductive doctrine promulgated by a genocidal, nuclear armed apartheid regime. And you're making it about Tel Aviv being nuked. As if that's more of a realistic nightmare than Israel completing its ongoing genocides in Palestine and Lebanon and expanding it at will in Syria, Turkey, Iran, the works.
What a joke.
tyler@programming.dev · 7 pts · 56d
You're gonna need to link all your sources. The IAEA has been saying for decades that Iran doesn't have the capability to produce a nuke. The only ones saying otherwise have been the Israel and through Israel, the US.