Trans Science Removed From Science@mander.xyz

Put this on the Mander sidebar

Also, if you say trans rights are political in attempt to push it out the realm of acceptable discussion, that is an offensive action, expect people like me to treat it as an act of war because it is.

Oh.

I checked the reports, and what I see is a sequence of 6 reports reporting hoohoohoot's comments. I do not have a vivid memory of the moment as I was just processing the back-log, but what must have happened is that In haste I interpreted this as 6 independent reports of the post, not noticing that the reports were of the comments, and so when I opened the post I was operating on what I mistakenly thought was a very high signal. I still did not want to claim 'transphobia' in my reason without verifying that, so, as I explained, I used the loophole as an excuse.

Usually, if this would really have been 6 independent reports of the same post, removing it would have been very likely the correct move. This contributed to why I was careless.

Here are 4 of them, I removed the names because these are not false reports:

Yes, of course! Moderators are gold. I need to make a better effort at recruiting.

Politics is a tricky subject and nebulously saying no politics isn’t a good strategy because everything is political.

For that reason, attempting to create a formal 'politics' filter is likely to be counter-productive. In general, I apply common sense, which is largely subjective by definition. The way I balance this is that I always err in the side of not removing things. Just want to emphasize that the reason used to mistakenly remove this post was not related to the general politics rule. I mistakenly thought that the post was reported by multiple people.

So I think a better goal would be to target the political behaviors that hurt people

My logic for setting the scope as I did is the following:

• The internet is flooded with posts about politics, and especially so with US-centered politics (and I am not from nor live in the US)
• Politics and topics that have become polarized by politics tend to be difficult to moderate

So, because my instance's focus is science and nature, I decided to make one of my instance's value propositions: If you choose this instance your Local feed will not have politics in it. Note, that, one has access to 'All' and one can also access the instance's communities from other instances. So, in my view, an instance that offers such a value proposition is a healthy component of the ecosystem - and easier for me to moderate.

I do agree that trying to come up with some better writing and guidelines that transmit the core idea while making it fairly enforceable would be good. I have said a few times in the past that I would do this, but I still don't really know how. So I keep reading what people suggest. Thank you!

I just encountered the type of example that I often struggle with, and so that is a good opportunity to describe my train of thought.

If you open the !academia@mander.xyz community right now, this is what you will see:

Post #1 has 'Trump' in the title, which is causing Trump to be featured at the top of Mander's front page. Posts 2 and 3 are about a highly polarizing subject that has become politicized, and the fifth post is about the pentagon cutting federal funding - which is also highly political.

These are true:

• These posts are political
• These posts are highly relevant to an 'academia' community
• I have not been good at creating guidelines for the community, as the sidebar is empty

So, the options that come to my mind are:

1. Accept politics in general whenever relevant
2. If no one reports, then no one minds, so just let it go. If someone reports, remove it
3. Create some general rule that if 'White House' or 'Trump' is in a title, remove it. This at least keeps posts with ‘Trump’ in the title off Mander’s local page, which is a common source of annoyance for me, and I suspect for others as well.
4. Remove the Academia community because it is a spot where politics infiltrate. I do not like this solution because politics infiltrates on many valuable topics, not only one.
5. Define a set of guidelines that creates a perfect filter and make the effort to implement it fairly. This is difficult both at the design stage and the implementation.
6. Apply a very strong politics filter and if I can even smell a political angle, remove it. This approach likely invites pushback, which I cannot reply to with more 'that's the rule, have a nice day' unless I want to spend all my energy discussing. I have considered this because I think that, even if unpopular, there is a minority with whom this concept would resonate and so they would appreciate having that space.

There are many more options that I did not list. I just wanted to give you a concrete example of my reasoning.

I want topic communities to remain useful even when their subject intersects politics, but I also want Mander to be a space where political discourse does not continuously colonize unrelated interests. I don't know how to draw a boundary that is both predictable and enforceable.

It’s especially disappointing because he chose to remove real science in favor of his own political bias.

That was not why I removed it. I removed it because I thought that many users reported it as racist/transphobic. If that many people report it as racist/transphobic, that is usually enough for me. The problem is that it was a comment to the post what was being reported, not the post itself, but I was processing the reports quickly and I made that mistake.

That said, since you brought up my political bias, I don’t mind stating my actual views openly.

Here are some biases that come to mind:

• I weigh a local community's interests much more heavily than a business interest
• anti-nationalism bias
• biased towards policies that aim to reduce global inequality and minimize environmental damage, even when they come at the expense of the local population
• biased towards immigration policies that provide mobility
• anti war, anti violence
• pro privacy
• pro drug legalization

When it comes to gender identity: To me, it is common sense that everyone deserves respect, medical professionals should be the ones deciding, based on the best available evidence, what care is appropriate for their patients, and people should be able to make their own informed choices. I want everyone to live their best possible life and if someone identifies in some way, then accepting that and treating them how they want to be treated takes minimal effort and is basic respect. So, I can appreciate that it is an important political issue, but it is just so frustrating that it is an issue at all. Political discussions around gender identity often start from assumptions that I reject, and so I don't see the point of engaging the discussion at that level. If you want to know my bias on that, it is: don't use politics to regulate how medical professionals can help people, and respect everyone. I’m sorry to people who care deeply about sports, world records, and gendered bathrooms, but to me those are secondary issues. Basic human dignity comes first. The edge cases, legal loopholes, medical malpractice or abuse, and sports regulations can be dealt with after that. What I often notice is that science gets pulled into debates that already rest on assumptions I reject.

An example that comes to mind is reading, many years ago, that gay penguins show that being gay is natural, and that this somehow supports the argument for gay marriage. I never liked that reasoning, and I find that having a back-and-forth about whether being gay is natural or not is counter-productive. This type of argument implicitly accepts an appeal to nature, which I reject.

So, the way I see it, what looks like a purely scientific disagreement is often not resolvable by science alone, because the actual disagreement lives underneath that, in different values and basic philosophical assumptions. It is extremely difficult to moderate a polarized discussion when science is used as if it could settle arguments that actually go much deeper, into values and what people think is right or wrong.

This is how I see it.

Yeah. Feels like the right move would be to lock the post and remove the offending comments, rather than remove the whole post. The post itself is perfectly in bounds for the community. I also hope there’s a good explanation, but I’m prepared to be let down.

Meh. If you're unable to properly moderate the comment section, you end up giving the bigots a platform, and vulnerable people are unsafe. That's how hate speech proliferates on the internet.

There's a good reason to lock certain topics, removing them less so, although it does stop bigots whining about not being able to share their stunning insights on those certain topics.

It's the whole reason places like beehaw or gay clubs exist.

In the right contexts it can be a good reason. In this case I can imagine reports on the comments were flying left and right, despite the article itself having no issues. That might have provoked a removal, habitually to avoid needing to go into the comments section with a surgical needle to remove the transphobia, bigotry, off-topic comments and flame-baiting.

The post seems to have been re-upped by someone else, no comments, so I think (and you don't have to agree with me for any of this) there's no issue with the article itself. I'll be charitable and put the removal modlog comment as reference to the contained comments getting way too political for the site, rather than the article.

And that news source is entirely written by scientists with relevant experience. If that's not suitable for a science community that allows something other than scientific papers, I don't know what would be

Thanks, this doesn't make the mod in question look any better.

Damn, stupid, commie, tankies censoring everything!! This is why we need to kick them off the fediverse!

rereads comment

oh

Well my point still stands!

Ah, ok. I was confused and thought it was still up.

People no longer understand the difference between humanity and politics

Well, if you don't see how that aspect of yourself could be seen as political, I can see why you don't think you're political, but you're clearly very passionate about a topic that most other people recognize as somewhat political. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but I think you can see a conflict like this was fairly likely if you're regularly posting indiscriminately with no little knowledge of the instances or communities you're posting in. It's not the end of the world nor is it an attack on you or your passions. You'll either learn to self moderate or choose different communities.

Now, if you don't mind I'm gonna step away from this conversation before an over eager mod/admin bans my ass.

Man, this response sucks. I put so much effort into trying to politely explain why this situation arose while making it clear that I'm cool with LGBT people, and I still get this demonization for not mindlessly siding with one side. Yeah, I did call out the person who posted in violation of a communities rules & guidelines then came running to dbzer0 to stir up drama -- that's wildly inappropriate behavior.

Whatever, y'all can stay apart of your tribe and blind yourself to any other. I don't think it's wise, but you're clearly not gonna listen to me.