Some Canadian websites, including for the federal government, displayed maps with Lake Ontario renamed as Lake America on Sunday, a day after Google Maps announced the change to align with an executive order by U.S. President Donald Trump.
This is why we need to use more open source stuff not tied to a closed US company like; Apple, Google, Microslop, Twitter, Meta, and whatever else.
40 Comments
goodguys9@lemmy.ca · 74 pts · 20h
Maybe this will convince more Canadians to ditch Google. Lots of open source alternatives like OpenStreetMaps.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 20h
https://www.openstreetmap.org/
Been using OSM for several years and contributing for a few years too. I hope this convinces some Canadians to ditch GMaps. The one thing it suffers most from is the network effect. In a small to medium-size town, one person alone joining and contributing can have a huge effect on usability. And in major cities, they help make sure information stays timely.
otter@lemmy.ca · 18 pts · 19h
I usually direct people to Comaps, because I find it simple and very close to the mobile Google maps experience. Most people won't need to understand how OpenStreetMaps works in order to use it
https://www.comaps.app/
But there are a lot of other apps that display the same data. Feel free to ask for more recommendations :)
There's a good discussion below about another app OSMand
(this comment was edited, original below for context)
Comaps specifically, since people will get confused if directed to the OSM project as a wholehttps://www.comaps.app/TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 19h
I think that's way too reductionist and presumptive. Not only do other solid applications exist to use OSM, but I'd even say that a lot of users won't like CoMaps for how barebones it is (I'm one of those users).
Users might like more features like in OsmAnd, they might like specialty features in apps like Alpi Maps, they might like the OpenStreetMap web UI, and I think it's patronizing to decide for them that "people will get confused" and railroad them for that presumption. It also outright assumes someone wants to use it specifically on their phone.
If nothing else, I'd link to the OpenStreetMap Wiki, specifically their using OpenStreetMap guide and the 'Software' page.
I appreciate what you're saying, but I think saying "actually, just use CoMaps" isn't a good general way to go about introducing people to OSM.
Edit: But to hopefully alleviate some common confusion: OpenStreetMap is just the database. It's key–value pairs that get applied to points, lines, areas, and relations between those objects. The key–value pairs get decided on by community consensus. That's all OpenStreetMap actually is.
Everything else is using that underlying database. So the map you see on OpenStreetMap.org is a map called "Carto". The editor on the website is called "iD". CoMaps is an app for iOS/Android that takes that data, renders it, and periodically sends you an offline map. StreetComplete is a gamified Android app that lets you do little "quests" to fill in gaps in the data. So on and so forth. Anything where you're visualizing or changing that underlying data is just a frontend for OpenStreetMap.
Which frontend best suits your needs (navigation, editing, etc.) is up to you.
otter@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 19h
I've edited the last sentence in my original comment to better highlight that there's a lot more out there.
I've found that frontloading a newcomer with lots of information, whether it's OSM, the fediverse, or a similar technical topic that we are passionate about, ends up scaring away a lot of people. They'll click on the link, scroll around, then move on to the next thing.
The reason why I suggest Comaps is because it felt the most similar to mobile Google Maps, which is what the majority of people are using.
Then once they actually try it and use the app once, they're more likely to stick around and learn more about OSM. + They'll know what they want when they ask for recommendations.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 19h
I figured that, but I think advertising CoMaps as effectively the "de facto" OSM experience by railroading someone into that could do more harm than good. When I started using OpenStreetMap, my understanding was that it's a map that I could choose how to use. So when I didn't like Organic Maps (at the time), I could just try another app (and eventually landed on OsmAnd on mobile and the Carto web UI on desktop).
If I'd just started with CoMaps with the understanding that it's "the" OSM experience, I would've thought "Oh, so it's low-rent Google Maps". The lack of features is what would make some people prefer it over Google Maps, but I don't think that's everyone or even most people. A deal breaker for a lot of people, for example, would be lack of aerial imagery, which OsmAnd allows you to use via a third-party. (I like the Carto UI enough now that I don't use aerial imagery, but back in the day, I literally never would've used a maps app without imagery tiles.)
I think something like "I use CoMaps and really like it because of its simplicity, but there are a lot of other applications if that's not what you're looking for" might be good. Whenever I'm telling someone about OSM, I tell them I use OsmAnd because I like how feature-rich it is (and link to a good tutorial), but I also mention CoMaps because it's a more streamlined experience and note that there are other good applications depending on what they're looking for.
Notably, a mirror of this happened to me when I learned as a confused Windows user that Linux was just Ubuntu. Tried Ubuntu, hated it, and gave up on Linux for probably 5 years because it felt like I was using a low-rent macOS. Came back and fell in love with KDE Plasma.
TL;DR: I understand decision paralysis, but I don't think showing someone a couple of options is problematic.
Edit: That said, I do think CoMaps should come up in any discussion with new users, so I agree with you on that.
laurelraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 15h
Just checked out OsmAnd and managed to blow through the "free" downloads just downloading the maps local to me before even learning that it limits how much we can download of the free community data before charging... It's a bit off-putting that they're charging for open source data, unless I'm missing something...
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 14h
On the Play Store version, you're able to download seven offline maps, where a map is either (your choice) a country or a state/province/etc. (some smaller countries don't have the state/province/etc. level and just give you the whole country). I haven't pushed it, but I think you should be able to have seven countries(?) available for offline view (maybe the world map counts as one, so six?).
OsmAnd is a BV (besloten vennootschap, effectively an LLC), so similar to something like ProtonMail, there's a "Start" (free) tier, a "Maps+" one, and a "Pro" one, where both paid tiers unlock unlimited offline map downloads. (You're able to use online maps as much as you want.)
The maps are stored on and downloaded from OsmAnd's site in a
.obffile, which is OsmAnd's own format. So they're essentially charging for open-source data that they've converted and are hosting as a way of incentivizing users out of the free tier, which as far as businesses go, I see no real problem with. They're making that open-source data more accessible with a powerful app and making features that encourage people to contribute back to it, not parasitizing it.OsmAnd, to my understanding, is well-liked among OSM's contributors for having a great app and a healthy business model.
Anyway, with that out of the way, the "Maps+" and "Pro" features are free on F-Droid. It is, after all, free and open-source.
otter@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 17h
Yea fair enough, I've edited my original comment to be better
saltesc@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 18h
Chill out
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 18h
From calmly expressing my thoughts? I'm trying to share an alternate perspective as someone who would've quit OSM and not looked back for years (if ever) if I'd been introduced to it in the way they're suggesting.
I have nothing but respect for what @otter@lemmy.ca is trying to do and am trying discuss a shortcoming I see in their approach, because I have the same goals as they do in wanting new people to discover an amazing project.
If you're misconstruing a lengthy disagreement as a heated one, that's on you.
Jessica@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 1h
Thank you for the long write up about open street maps. I keep putting off figuring out how to use it because I don't know where to start and it doesn't work like I expect so hopefully this will help me get started
snoons@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 19h
Hello, that was me. Tried OSM but was just confused with it. CoMaps is the GOAT.
morto@piefed.social · 3 pts · 15h
It would be nice if comaps had a web version like google maps. The osm site doesn't show a lot of stuff by default, like info from businesses
otter@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 13h
That's true, I wonder how difficult it would be. There are desktop apps for MacOS and Linux, but it's more friction to force people to download something
Startpage has maps, but they're pretty bad. Duckduckgo uses Apple Maps, which are alright. I'd love to have CoMaps on there
Auli@lemmy.ca · 15 pts · 18h
I would love that but the biggest disadvantage in the city is no traffic data. And yes we got around fine without traffic data for so long but traffic is much worse then at that time.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 18h
You can, for what it's worth, use Google Maps' traffic data on the Android app OsmAnd (Reddit link). The custom overlay takes about 30 seconds to add and is pretty straightforward.
Tested just now and still works.
Notably it won't affect navigation, but it will show you visually where traffic is.
kent_eh@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 4h
You do realize that Google generates that by tracking the phones of everyone in the area?
Auli@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 25m
Sure but you could get it from other sources. Cities have or had not sure what they do now traffic data. We have 511 that shows accidents and construction that could at least get pulled in.
Want another issue no address navigation, it just takes you to a block of addresses. Another one but it could be fixed if people use it less like way less information of where businesses are located. If I have to look up the address of a place on another maps webpage or app and then put it in might as well just use the original app.
Android auto also has issues navigating on the phone does not automatically transfer to android auto when its plugged in. And yes it has the switch button but it does not always show up or work.
joostjakob@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 12h
Magic Earth is OSM based, with some extra data added - including limited traffic information. It doesn't have a great score on privacy though IIRC
ExtremeDullard@piefed.social · 36 pts · 20h
Trump's EO only concerns federal documents. Google has zero need to go along with this shit. But of course, count on the fascist techno-bros to roll with anything Trump says or does to curry favors.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 19h
Google uses GNIS, fwiw, which was changed by Trump's EO. Still a good reason to ditch Google Maps, because it's clear they don't care enough to override that automatic change. On OSM, this would be up to the community.
crispbacon99@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 19h
Right, what will Google hide behind this reasoning when he changes Canada to America or Greenland. What's the line for them
Spoiler: there isn't one.
IAmYouButYouDontKnowYet@reddthat.com · 14 pts · 19h
The collapse of America is on purpose.
If it's not for total collapse it's to wear out the citizens into submitting. Eventually some fake person will come to save the day, probably masked as whatever focus groups of young people say they want in a president. This should all be obvious, but people still get caught in the manicured marketing naration and dramatic theater that exists almost exclusively to keep people from truth and the reality at hand.
And the citizens will fall for it as always... Fuckers are barely human anymore.
KindnessIsPunk@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 13h
Hey, maybe humanity will finally see the pitfalls of petty tribalism and defer to subject matter experts!
IAmYouButYouDontKnowYet@reddthat.com · 1 pts · 3h
It's not that simple. Experts aren't magically more moral than anyone else. Everywhere from the bottom of the street to the president or top scientist is all the same human animal, the good and evil.
Not to mention when pressure gets worked into and someone's life is threatened to show them the decision they "need" to make.
Reality is chaos even under our governments. In fact I think that chaos is real life, living within that chaos is the real "game".
I think that's a problem. We have 'regular people' thinking reality is the privileged life they see and live in the safety nets and security... But the truth is, not to sound like an asshole, but the truth is that's like a toddler being placed in a play pen while the adults do real work, in the real world which is above nations. The security and safety nets are only for those who are willing to only live life within the play pen, and life inside that play pen is not an honest, natural or authentic human life. Even living that life the security and safety is largely just illusion and psychological comfort.
We are hidden from reality, we are assets to be used by people that are playing the real game. This actually goes way back to Jesus.
Jesus' lessons were about understanding and dealing with the chaos I talk about. But people feared what that means, and feared the fact not everyone can mentally deal with with true reality... So instead of allowing Jesus' gnostic lessons in each individual having a direct connection to god, they created priests to be middle men. The nation is like the priest in the modern day. They mask and separate our humanity from true reality. Also this is supposedly why the "lost" gospels found in the 1940s were hidden.
KindnessIsPunk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1h
Alright this was meant to be a quip more than anything else. However, agreed that even experts can be corrupted. The only real weapon we have is an educated populace and it's not totally effective but it's the best weapon we have along with decentralized power structures.
ZDL@lazysoci.al · 13 pts · 16h
We need a law in Canada that simply bans any government facility from using American products for key infrastructure.
No X-the-Nazi-Bar, no Farcebook, no Instacrap, no Goofle, no nothing. At first shifting to saner nations as a temporary measure is acceptable: EU-based companies. It has to come attached to a timeline, however, where the Canadian government uses 100% Canadian technology. Say 15 years to make the shift.
The same applies to military equipment: nothing American-made within 15 years.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 16h
Canucks: Report the bug. Every day.
puppinstuff@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 9h
It would be more effective to degoogle and stop using their products as much as possible. It’s working as intended for Google and they don’t care as long as your eyeballs still load the page and see the paid map marker placements.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 19h
This seems to all be cases of too much IT integration with the US. Not getting maps directly from Google. It's still a shame for Google policies to align with political chaos.
HotsauceHurricane@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 15h
How does Donny weiner taste Sundar Pichai?
antianarchist@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 13h
Websites determine a user’s location with a database, where each IP address is stored (e.g. MaxMind). The data is not fully accurate, especially if you live close to a border. Additionally, in this case, the Google Maps endpoint is called from the server the user is visiting. So the server is either close to the border, or more likely, fully inside a US data center, because they were just blindly using hyperscalers, such as AWS, Azure or GCP.
DaddleDew@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 19h
There are plenty of alternatives.
Organic Maps is a great one.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 18h
If you're specifically recommending Organic Maps, I'd go with CoMaps instead. It's a fork of Organic Maps that was created by major contributors because of problems addressed in this open letter.
SalmonTractor@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 4h
Wow, that’s a wild ride. Thanks for the deets.
Reannlegge@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 18h
Yeah I do not use google map, I will have to check out which one I do use though.
Yawweee877h444@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 20h