You get a chance to go back in time to the free territory of ukraine to save the revolution. You can only bring 15 tons worth of equipment with you. What do you take?
By December of 1918, the Revolutionary Insurgent Army "was just over 110,000 strong, divided into four Corps, consisting of 83,000 infantry, 20,000 cavalry, assault groups, artillery, reconnaissance, medical, and other detachments, including armoured cars and seven armoured trains."
Shit. You're not carrying supplies for an army of 110,000 in 15 tons. Forget food, water, small arms or ammunition in any capacity to supply the army.
How do we make a real difference, in 1918?
2 of the world's most successful military vehicle: the Toyota Hilux, 1985 2.4L turbodiesel 4WD, ~3 tons. In 1918 we can get an equivalent for diesel fuel, even if it is a probably a little dirty compared to modern fuel.
tools, spare tires, wheels, axles, drive shaft, transmission and engine block for same, 1.5 tons (4.5), basically an entire third truck worth of spare parts
2x trained mechanics for same, 0.25 ton
vehicle service lift for same, 0.75 ton (5.5)
4x Browning M2 with 2x truck mounts for same, plus however much ammunition we can fit into 1 ton (6.5)
20x Panasonic Toughbooks with spare batteries, running some relatively simple version of Linux, with GIMP and LibreOffice installed, plus 10x Brother color laser printers of some variety and however much paper and extra toner cartridges can be fit into 0.5 ton (11.5)
Well, I guess we still have room for extras...
100x Barrett M99 chambered for .50 BMG, plus as much ammunition as we can fit into 1 ton (12.5)
0.5 ton of some variant of night vision goggles
Fill the final 2 tons with some very simple model of RPG launcher and ammunition
The overall intention of all of this is communications, intelligence gathering and distribution, and high reliability and the capacity to actually operate and maintain it in eastern Europe in 1918.
The Toyotas are command field vehicles, with the Brownings for self-defense (not attack platforms). They should be able to handle almost any terrain and stay in operational condition. Each would carry one of the radio repeaters, a box of 20 spare hand radios and batteries, one of the portable generators, one of the OM-1 Mark IIs, one of the Barretts and two of the RPG launchers. The remaining hand radios get distributed out to field units, along with the solar chargers. The service lift is worth including so that the trucks can be serviced quickly and put back in the field.
The other two generators are intended to support a field command facility with several of the Toughbooks, the mechanical service equipment and the Sopwith.
The Sopwith is intended as an observation aircraft. It might get fitted with weapons, but more important is having a cameraman in the second seat. Two of the OM-1 Mark IIs will be in the airplane at all times. The pilot will take minimal risks. The intelligence from the photography will be worth much more than any potential combat wins.
The Toughbooks will be used for viewing and editing the collected photos from however many field units can be provided with the cameras. Olympus cameras are the choice because the micro 4/3 format is lighter and more compact than standard 4/3 DSLR cameras, and Olympus ruggedizes and weatherproofs all of their cameras. 20 of the TG-7s will be distributed out to field units for intelligence gathering, with messengers running them back and forth to command, so 20 more are in constant rotation, with 10 spares.
GIMP obviously for photo editing, and LibreOffice for reports and documentation. The printers are worth including so that intelligence reports can be distributed to field commanders who won't have access to the computers, and the reports can be burned or otherwise easily destroyed as necessary.
The Barretts will be the most advanced weapons anywhere in the field. Their basic purpose is to punch holes in engine blocks from long range. I doubt there are any armored vehicles of this time period that can withstand a .50 BMG round. It could probably blow up the boiler of a steam locomotive. Give each sniper a set of the NVGs and put them in a position to deny the enemy use of any vehicles.
And obviously, the RPGs will be a force multiplier for any infantry unit. There won't really be any equivalent firepower in the field.
High-resolution aerial photography of the battlefield, plus communications infrastructure built around the radios and the trucks, will put this group way ahead of any other military of the time. They'll know where the enemy is and where they're going at all times, and be able to share that information with their entire army. The war will be completely different in a week. Enemy armies will no longer be a threat after a month. They'll control Moscow within 6 months.
Sure, but you can't eat it, you can't kill your enemies or defend your homes with it, and having a big pile of it makes you a target. Hard to hide that once you start spending it.
Besides, in 1918 the walkie talkies alone are more valuable than anything you could buy. The current equivalent would be the SCR-68:
This was bulky, unreliable, complicated to operate, and had limited transmission power. It was portable only in the sense that it was built into an airplane.
Also, the Toughbooks... One modern laptop paired with one of the digital cameras would probably be worth more than 15 tons of gold in 1918. The radios would at least be understandable to technical experts of the time. The computer would be incomprehensible magic.
whatever equipment you bring, if you can't reproduce them, the advantage is gone after the equipment is gone... like... modern drones are pretty light and could give a huge tactical advantage from scouting alone, and they could also be used for bombarding, say you bring enough solar power chargers to keep them running, whatever tools and replacement parts for what is more likely to wear out, with 15 tons you could get several drone squads playing support role to diminish the chances of them taking damage... but how many years would they last anyway?
perhaps a bunch of schematics and tools to build tools so you can make more advanced weaponry would be better, and of course schematics for better agricultural tools to boost production while you are so focused in arming up
15 tons of nuclear weapons + delivery systems should do the trick.
Forget about saving the revolution in Ukraine. A few nukes here and there and you could establish anarcho-communism globally. Under my benign leadership, of course.
15 tons is roughly 3 bombs, just gonna need to build the planes in 1919 Ukraine... if you want a missile and you need a launcher, you can't under 15 tons even for a single one
Well, the revolution failed because ukraine was not industrialized enough to defend itself against the soviet union. It would make sense why so many of us would want to bring armaments .
Assuming theres no wealth cap, I would bring rare metals like silver gold and aluminum with me. That should be enough to destroy any nation state from within via corruption without spilling any blood. If that is not a option id bring the necessary infrastructure to mass produce kamikaze drones.
15 tons of gold... well, for comparison, Spain sent about 500 tons of gold to USSR during the Civil War, supposedly to get weapons, and it wasn't nearly enough.
The USSR shafted Spain by massively overcharging for supplies and weapons since no other country in the world besides Mexico and (secretly) France was willing to assist Spain, and to top it all off, the USSR sent fairly crappy weapons too.
Its a little unclear when exaclty we woud return, so if we could return like 1917 before bolsheviks took power and be able to kill off the top brass, history certainly could change quite a bit. Seems to me that this would be a huge gamble, but so are many other ideas such as bringing modern technologies with you.
Talking about history and trying to figure out what could have gone differently and what would have been needed for that isnt a bad thing for movements. Could be done more often tbh.
Yeah, thats analyzing + learning from the mistakes of the past, it's vital to every movement.
However, these kinds of posts are straight up hoi4 alt history fetishizing past events type of deal mixed with delusions of grandeur (you become a great man™ who singlehandedly saves the revolution)
Do none of you feel embarrassed that your ideology necessitates making up fake scenarios in your head to cope with a lack of historical success?
Like, if being an ML required me to fantasize about how things could have been better if only I had a time machine, I would seriously consider reevaluating my entire ideology and relearning everything from scratch.
This thread is such bad optics and not one of you seems to realize.
As a fellow ML lurking in this thread, we're not immune to fantasizing or wondering how things might've been different, if the USSR were still around or what have you.
And sometimes engaging in those kinds of counterfactuals can be fun. What if me and my friends went back and time to give tanks and AR-15s to the Paris Commune?
I think what matters is whether you're out there doing to the work. I know a number of Anarchists in my local organizing scene, who are really talented, and that I'm glad to know and have around. Our ideological differences don't come into play as much when we're all on a picket line together, or feeding the hungry together, or in a protest march together.
Anarchists are at least out here having made revolutions, and governed territory, which is more I can say for our Trotskyist comrades.
26 Comments
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub · 8 pts · 1d
Shit. You're not carrying supplies for an army of 110,000 in 15 tons. Forget food, water, small arms or ammunition in any capacity to supply the army.
How do we make a real difference, in 1918?
Well, I guess we still have room for extras...
The overall intention of all of this is communications, intelligence gathering and distribution, and high reliability and the capacity to actually operate and maintain it in eastern Europe in 1918.
The Toyotas are command field vehicles, with the Brownings for self-defense (not attack platforms). They should be able to handle almost any terrain and stay in operational condition. Each would carry one of the radio repeaters, a box of 20 spare hand radios and batteries, one of the portable generators, one of the OM-1 Mark IIs, one of the Barretts and two of the RPG launchers. The remaining hand radios get distributed out to field units, along with the solar chargers. The service lift is worth including so that the trucks can be serviced quickly and put back in the field.
The other two generators are intended to support a field command facility with several of the Toughbooks, the mechanical service equipment and the Sopwith.
The Sopwith is intended as an observation aircraft. It might get fitted with weapons, but more important is having a cameraman in the second seat. Two of the OM-1 Mark IIs will be in the airplane at all times. The pilot will take minimal risks. The intelligence from the photography will be worth much more than any potential combat wins.
The Toughbooks will be used for viewing and editing the collected photos from however many field units can be provided with the cameras. Olympus cameras are the choice because the micro 4/3 format is lighter and more compact than standard 4/3 DSLR cameras, and Olympus ruggedizes and weatherproofs all of their cameras. 20 of the TG-7s will be distributed out to field units for intelligence gathering, with messengers running them back and forth to command, so 20 more are in constant rotation, with 10 spares.
GIMP obviously for photo editing, and LibreOffice for reports and documentation. The printers are worth including so that intelligence reports can be distributed to field commanders who won't have access to the computers, and the reports can be burned or otherwise easily destroyed as necessary.
The Barretts will be the most advanced weapons anywhere in the field. Their basic purpose is to punch holes in engine blocks from long range. I doubt there are any armored vehicles of this time period that can withstand a .50 BMG round. It could probably blow up the boiler of a steam locomotive. Give each sniper a set of the NVGs and put them in a position to deny the enemy use of any vehicles.
And obviously, the RPGs will be a force multiplier for any infantry unit. There won't really be any equivalent firepower in the field.
High-resolution aerial photography of the battlefield, plus communications infrastructure built around the radios and the trucks, will put this group way ahead of any other military of the time. They'll know where the enemy is and where they're going at all times, and be able to share that information with their entire army. The war will be completely different in a week. Enemy armies will no longer be a threat after a month. They'll control Moscow within 6 months.
Aqivex@fedinsfw.app · 4 pts · 1d
^ I vote this comrade get first dibs at the time machine.
Souvenir@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 14h
15 metric tons of pure gold is worth approximately $2 billion US today. I assume gold wasn't entirely worthless a hundred years ago either.
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub · 2 pts · 9h
Sure, but you can't eat it, you can't kill your enemies or defend your homes with it, and having a big pile of it makes you a target. Hard to hide that once you start spending it.
Besides, in 1918 the walkie talkies alone are more valuable than anything you could buy. The current equivalent would be the SCR-68:
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/western_el_scr68scr_6.html
This was bulky, unreliable, complicated to operate, and had limited transmission power. It was portable only in the sense that it was built into an airplane.
Also, the Toughbooks... One modern laptop paired with one of the digital cameras would probably be worth more than 15 tons of gold in 1918. The radios would at least be understandable to technical experts of the time. The computer would be incomprehensible magic.
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 1d
https://anarwiki.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Ukraine
PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 1d
whatever equipment you bring, if you can't reproduce them, the advantage is gone after the equipment is gone... like... modern drones are pretty light and could give a huge tactical advantage from scouting alone, and they could also be used for bombarding, say you bring enough solar power chargers to keep them running, whatever tools and replacement parts for what is more likely to wear out, with 15 tons you could get several drone squads playing support role to diminish the chances of them taking damage... but how many years would they last anyway?
perhaps a bunch of schematics and tools to build tools so you can make more advanced weaponry would be better, and of course schematics for better agricultural tools to boost production while you are so focused in arming up
Souvenir@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 14h
15 tons of nuclear weapons + delivery systems should do the trick.
Forget about saving the revolution in Ukraine. A few nukes here and there and you could establish anarcho-communism globally. Under my benign leadership, of course.
PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 8h
15 tons is roughly 3 bombs, just gonna need to build the planes in 1919 Ukraine... if you want a missile and you need a launcher, you can't under 15 tons even for a single one
Souvenir@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 8h
I'll have 55 of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)
PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 1h
Now you can raze 55 city blocks!
Comrade_Spood@quokk.au · 2 pts · 14h
15 tons of suicide drones.
Ophrys@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 6h
I'd probably just take 15tons of medicine, maybe some powertools but I'm not sure if the electrical grid ran the same voltage and stuff
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 5h
Well, the revolution failed because ukraine was not industrialized enough to defend itself against the soviet union. It would make sense why so many of us would want to bring armaments .
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 16h
Assuming theres no wealth cap, I would bring rare metals like silver gold and aluminum with me. That should be enough to destroy any nation state from within via corruption without spilling any blood. If that is not a option id bring the necessary infrastructure to mass produce kamikaze drones.
PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 8h
15 tons of gold... well, for comparison, Spain sent about 500 tons of gold to USSR during the Civil War, supposedly to get weapons, and it wasn't nearly enough.
ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 2h
The USSR shafted Spain by massively overcharging for supplies and weapons since no other country in the world besides Mexico and (secretly) France was willing to assist Spain, and to top it all off, the USSR sent fairly crappy weapons too.
There's a good short video about it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S_mnw0iK0LQ
A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 5h
shit
punkisundead@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 16h
Its a little unclear when exaclty we woud return, so if we could return like 1917 before bolsheviks took power and be able to kill off the top brass, history certainly could change quite a bit. Seems to me that this would be a huge gamble, but so are many other ideas such as bringing modern technologies with you.
commiunism@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 19h
How Hitler could have won ww2 type post
punkisundead@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 16h
Talking about history and trying to figure out what could have gone differently and what would have been needed for that isnt a bad thing for movements. Could be done more often tbh.
commiunism@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 9h
Yeah, thats analyzing + learning from the mistakes of the past, it's vital to every movement.
However, these kinds of posts are straight up hoi4 alt history fetishizing past events type of deal mixed with delusions of grandeur (you become a great man™ who singlehandedly saves the revolution)
SolarPunker@slrpnk.net · 0 pts · 4h
Can I go so far to prevent Stalin and save Trotsky?
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 3h
Wasn't Trotsky the one who ordered the Red Army to crush the Makhnovists?
electric_nan@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 2h
Go back naked, pick up a rock, murder the first capitalist.
chloroken@lemmy.ml · -4 pts · 5h
Do none of you feel embarrassed that your ideology necessitates making up fake scenarios in your head to cope with a lack of historical success?
Like, if being an ML required me to fantasize about how things could have been better if only I had a time machine, I would seriously consider reevaluating my entire ideology and relearning everything from scratch.
This thread is such bad optics and not one of you seems to realize.
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 3h
As a fellow ML lurking in this thread, we're not immune to fantasizing or wondering how things might've been different, if the USSR were still around or what have you.
And sometimes engaging in those kinds of counterfactuals can be fun. What if me and my friends went back and time to give tanks and AR-15s to the Paris Commune?
I think what matters is whether you're out there doing to the work. I know a number of Anarchists in my local organizing scene, who are really talented, and that I'm glad to know and have around. Our ideological differences don't come into play as much when we're all on a picket line together, or feeding the hungry together, or in a protest march together.
Anarchists are at least out here having made revolutions, and governed territory, which is more I can say for our Trotskyist comrades.