Radosław Sikorski upbraids Moscow for being “incapable of living in peace” with its neighbors following a series of incursions into NATO airspace.
Russia shouldn't complain at the United Nations if its missiles or aircraft are shot down after entering NATO airspace, Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski warned Moscow on Monday.
Sikorski was speaking at an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council in New York. The summit was convened after three Russian military jets entered Estonian airspace for 12 minutes on Sept. 19 before being repelled by Italian F-35s representing NATO.
"I have only one request to the Russian government: If another missile or aircraft enters our space without permission, deliberately or by mistake, and gets shot down and the wreckage falls on NATO territory, please don't come here to whine about it," Sikorski said. "You have been warned."
Not to be outdone, Sikorski sent a further barb Moscow's way in New York: "We know you don't care for international law, and you are incapable of living in peace with your neighbors. Your insane nationalism contains a lust for domination that will not cease until you realize that the age of empires is over and that your empire will not be rebuilt."
96 Comments
slaacaa@lemmy.world · 88 pts · 324d
Less talk and more action please.
NATO member Turkey shot down a Russian jet some years ago, and the planet didn’t perish in a nuclear war, so we know we can do that.
hunnybubny@discuss.tchncs.de · 26 pts · 323d
Fairly sure it will happen. Balts and Poland are fed up enough.
Sikorsky is also known for not throwing words around.
Just a reminder Turkey shot down the nazi jet after
Issuing an official note to the fascists that they will shoot it down
russkies entering their airspace multiple times before.
warning the pilot multiple times before it entered their airspace.
The decision to shoot it down did not come out of the blue.
hector@lemmy.today · 72 pts · 324d
That really goes without saying. Turkey shut down a Russian jet that was fucking around. That is the only way they will learn. They are jetting around like they are the baddest mother fuckers in the air while their equipment is pretty lame.
Treczoks@lemmy.world · 69 pts · 324d
The Russians claimed they have not been over NATO territory. If they come again, shoot them down and look where they land. Case closed.
kent_eh@lemmy.ca · 37 pts · 323d
Only because they believe it should be their territory.
Hugin@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 324d
Debris from plains that are shot down don't land directly below where they were shot down.
bookmeat@lemmynsfw.com · 5 pts · 323d
Sure, they land tens or hundreds of km from where they were shot down. Makes sense.
BCsven@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 323d
This isn't WWIi, modern jets drop like stones. But the commentor seems to mean impact debris field. You explode something t doesn't all fly forward with the jet, it flies backwards too.
seejur@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 323d
And he is implying that incursions are tens of kilometers inside the territory, not a couple of meters. So if debris flies a couple of km backward, they still land in NATO territory
ik5pvx@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 323d
This. And it is not really predictable where they go, depends on which parts get damaged and how
choco_crispies@lemmy.ml · 21 pts · 323d
That may be true, but while parts and pieces of downed aircraft may land over a mile or two from an incident based on altitude (they are no longer flying, they are falling), most airspace incursions are not happening just over the border but further inside the defending territory. It takes time for responding fighter jets to scramble and confront the invasive aircraft. This is occurring while traveling at high speed. So the likely answer is that they are not a mile inside of the airspace, but tens of miles at least. It should be no trouble to discern over where the incursion took place.
plyth@feddit.org · 3 pts · 322d
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown (map at 'The shootdown')
Doesn't work reliably for the Turkish incident. The crash site determines the path, but both crash sites are in Syria.
SlartyBartFast@sh.itjust.works · 56 pts · 324d
Good for Poland. I'm tired of these Putinganda-fuckers "accidently" sending incursions into their neighbours' territories
Siegehammer85@lemmy.world · 49 pts · 324d
More words, to be followed by more incursions without action. We should have started shooting down Russian air-junk right from the first invasion in 2014. Historians will not be kind about floppy dicked Europe/NATO after it’s too late….
Olhonestjim@lemmy.world · 48 pts · 324d
Nah, Poland is the one nation in Europe that's itching for a fight with Moscow. They've just been holding back.
neukenindekeuken@sh.itjust.works · 18 pts · 323d
They're ready to send troops to the frontlines of Ukraine last I heard.
F_State@midwest.social · 1 pts · 321d
They've been partitioned a few times and not trying to live thru that again.
Demdaru@lemmy.world · 35 pts · 324d
Without action? Come on. Drones went over Poland, shot down. Poland isn't really holding back, but it can't charge blindy either.
makyo@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 324d
I am also sick of the inaction. I hope they are a real warning and not more words.
I really like this line though and I will be repeating it to anyone who is listening, "incapable of living in peace".
selkiesidhe@sh.itjust.works · 31 pts · 323d
If it's one thing the dicktasters... I mean dictators... of today do a lot of at a regular basis, it's whine. It's the mark of a little man. Pathetic.
monogram@feddit.nl · 6 pts · 323d
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 31 pts · 323d
I kinda expected ww3 would be started by China instead of russian idiocracy
Cheems@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 323d
I assumed the USA would do something monumentally stupid.
Agent641@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 323d
This is a given. The only question is where? Venezuela? Russia? Strait of Taiwan? West Philippines sea? Greenland? Iran? North Korea? California? There's really no telling where they'll take out their dick and start helicoptering it.
Blumpkinhead@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 323d
We're busy invading ourselves at the moment, give us some time.
F_State@midwest.social · 3 pts · 321d
Historically a fair assumption but the Chinese really want their turn to do stupid things internationally.
MehBlah@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 322d
Guaranteed with the throwbacks in charge right now.
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 323d
That was on the table too. But only since trump came to office in 2016.
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 3 pts · 323d
I don't think China has that many nukes tbh.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really want 600 nukes raining down on me, but it's mostly been a US vs Russia pissing contest.
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 6 pts · 323d
If russias army and navy is in that bad condition, i do not want to know how they are maintaining as many nukes as US with less than 1/10th of the budged
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 5 pts · 323d
That's the neat part.jpg
LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 322d
BRICS. It is China too
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 323d
Why? China's not operating an expansionist military. Who would they even start it with?
Russia's been feuding with its neighbors over it's western border for... centuries.
discount_door_garlic@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 323d
Well firstly Tibet would probably disagree, but perhaps Taiwan, the USA, anybody in the South China Sea, on the Indian border...
China's rhetoric has been very clear for decades, further expansion is going to be pursued. Whether that's semi-peaceful like cracking down on Hong Kong, or direct invasion - it's a question of 'when', not 'if'.
Hopefully no impending major conflicts could provide them a helpful smokescreen to make moves under, while potential adversaries are tied-up and unable to project power...
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · -10 pts · 322d
You can take that up with the Tang Dynasty. Tibet's been a part of China longer than Delaware has been a part of the United States.
They've been screaming pacifism and globalism from the rooftops since Nixon visited.
Hong Kong wasn't peaceful. The protests erupted with the killing of two municipal police officers. It was the Chinese J6.
And I encourage you to find out why they were protesting. A Taiwanese national had fled to Hong Kong after murdering his pregnant girlfriend. Chinese authorities were extraditing the suspect back to Taiwan, when student protests began in opposition to the extradition process.
Honytawk@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 322d
They haven't been a part since their independence in 1913. You can take it up with the Qing Dynasty.
They have also been screaming colonialism in Africa for a couple of decades.
They said semi-peaceful in the quote.
Also, Taiwan wasn't a part of China during that protest. So their extradition was illegal. What happened before does not matter. China had no say in the matter, yet invaded anyway.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 322d
How semi-peaceful is a double homicide?
Both the Taiwanese government and the Chinese government disagree. Hell, the US disagreed. They piled on with the killings nonetheless, because the protesters sucked up to Donald Trump.
When Russian politicians do this, we call it manipulation. Strange that Hong Kong politicos don't get the same consideration.
F_State@midwest.social · 2 pts · 321d
Hard to say how things will go with Trump as president but Vietnam, Communist Vietnam, was well on their way to being Allies with the US over Chinese expansionist policy.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 321d
Pundits have been promising a Vietnamese alignment with the US since the 90s.
We send our people over. The Vietnamese diplomatic core is always very polite and accommodating. A thousand excited Op-Eds burst from their eggs. Nothing happens.
They've engaged with China (most notably over the BRI, where they trail their neighbors Laos and Cambodia substantially) in similar fashion.
Trump's abrasive and obnoxious new cabinet hasn't improved anything. But the losses - in this instance - are heavily overstated.
Pissing off Modi's India was a much bigger deal, by comparison.
cashsky@sh.itjust.works · -21 pts · 323d
Hurr durr China bad
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 8 pts · 323d
Defending west taiwans Rebellion against the rightful democratic government in taiwan i see
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 322d
My man's a regular supplicant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek_Memorial_Hall
cashsky@sh.itjust.works · -11 pts · 323d
The fact that you think China is more imperialistic than Russia, US or Israel, is kinda wild.
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 8 pts · 323d
Never said that lol
cashsky@sh.itjust.works · -5 pts · 323d
I didn't say anything about Taiwan either.
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 323d
But about west taiwan. mocking that it supposedly always put down as the bad guy while the contrary is the case, which is what your mockery is about
cashsky@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 323d
All I mocked was western liberals constant need to demonize China. I didn't say shit about Taiwan
I'm mocking your inability to see things around you and thinking China is worse than Russia, who has been more aggressive and imperialistic to almost all of its western neighbors but sure, CHINA is the one who would start ww3.
Meanwhile Israel is attacking every neighbor around it and US is actively encouraging a genocide but sure CHINA is the one who would start a ww3.
On top of all that, US is over hear illegally attacking South American vessels on international waters in addition everything else it's doing but sure CHINA is the one who would start a ww3.
You see how braindead the China hate sounds?
F_State@midwest.social · 2 pts · 321d
China, the US, and Russia are the big three Empires. Thinking China is less imperialistic is wild
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 323d
Reddit Brain is never more apparent than on the subject of China. Not even Iran or North Korea get as much hate, and they at least have reactionary governments deserving of serious criticism.
Westerners simply cannot accept that they reverse mortgaged away their industrial core and need to blame their largest trading partner for all their problems.
In fairness, the same shit happened with Japan and Korea in the 80s. And with Latin America in the 60s and 70s. As soon as we start importing large volumes of consumer goods from your country, the national media tells us to hate you.
PumpkinSkink@lemmy.world · 30 pts · 323d
I have this sneaking suspicion that this response might be in the Russian "plan". I have a feeling that the goal is to show that America won't lift a finger to stop them, and thereby break NATO and badly damage US power. If Poland downs a Russian jet, and Trump says "Hey! You guys have to be nice to Russia" it will read as Russia calling NATO's bluff while maintaining just enough plausible deniability to likely avoid even European countries from pushing for a real response.
Jhex@lemmy.world · 53 pts · 323d
brought to you by the same master planners that thought they'd take Ukraine in a month
saimen@feddit.org · 27 pts · 323d
You mean 3 days
AcidiclyBasicGlitch@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 323d
Not only that, but somehow since Russia is an innocent victim and they know America won't stop them, they might as well go ahead and try a ground invasion and see what happens
0x0@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 323d
No to mention Rutte's a convervative and could easily undermine any response.
rustyfish@piefed.world · 30 pts · 323d
I wonder how the vatniks will twist this into NATO being the bad guys again.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 323d
I can see it now "more nato aggression! Of course russia needed to defend itself by invading a sovereign country!"
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 7 pts · 323d
"What was russia doing in NATO airspace?" "They just got lost! Jesus! Cant you take a joke?"
0x0@lemmy.zip · -30 pts · 323d
NATO's only function has been to asset the US's military dominance in Europe.
As a result, the EU is much less militarily prepared now than it was before because of over-reliance on the US... which has now turned its back on the EU.
So yeah, NATO has always been the bad guys (and the same goes for Russia under Putin).
Geopolitics is not black-and-white.
hunnybubny@discuss.tchncs.de · 17 pts · 323d
Okay buddy baka.
Randomgal@lemmy.ca · 15 pts · 323d
So who are to good guys? Lmao
0x0@lemmy.zip · -9 pts · 323d
There are no good guys.
pupbiru@aussie.zone · 6 pts · 323d
the good guys are people defending their country from military incursion
in this particular case (or rather ukraine, poland, estonia), in every conceivable situation, russia are the bad guys and nato are absolutely the good guys
has nato done some disagreeable shit in the past? sure! absolutely! there’s your grey: nato aren’t always the cut and dry good guys… but in this case… cut and dry: russia can fuck right off and nato is a force for good
Kinperor@lemmy.ca · -8 pts · 323d
Russia announced that they would invade if Ukraine moved to join NATO. Who should we blame, the state that set clear boundaries, or the state that was recklessly told to break the boundaries?
Furthermore, according to a former international monitor from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), Ukraine is the party to blame for the breakdown of the previous agreement, not Russia.
The "Russia bad" narrative only makes sense if you start the story on february 2022 and refuse to learn anything about the context leading up to the SMO.
GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 323d
You sound like you're defending the guy who said he hit his wife because she wouldn't listen.
Kinperor@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 323d
Childishly inadequate comparison.
There's a world of difference between domestic abuse, and allowing an hostile alliance to encircle your country.
Furthermore, I recommend listening to the interview I linked above: Ukraine and Russia had a bilateral agreement together, that Ukraine broke. This is according to a french former monitor of the OSCE.
Randomgal@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 322d
Ah ok you're just a troll lmao
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 323d
In this war there clearly is. Also in ww2 where there clearly was an evil bad guy alliance though the forces of east also are only 95 points of 100 on evil scale
melsaskca@lemmy.ca · 18 pts · 324d
Vlad. Vlad. Don't be bad. Putin. Putin. Stop that shootin'.
teft@piefed.social · 24 pts · 324d
Fyi Vlad isn’t the diminutive of Vladimir. Vladimir is “shortened” to Vova or Volodya. Vlad is short for Vladislov.
neidu3@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 324d
Well, makes at least as much sense as James being shortened to Jim
kami@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 14 pts · 324d
And Richard is obviously Dick
Zorque@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 324d
And Robert is Bob.
teft@piefed.social · 7 pts · 323d
Margaret as Peggy always blew my mind. Or Elizabeth as Buffy.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 323d
Elizabeth the vampire slayer?
Honytawk@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 323d
I wear the Royal Cheese. It does not wear me.
Tujio@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 324d
I thought that Vladimir got shortened to Dimi. Or is that pejorative?
teft@piefed.social · 10 pts · 324d
Dimi is shortened from Dimitri.
Tujio@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 324d
Is this why Russian literature never makes any damn sense to me?
teft@piefed.social · 10 pts · 324d
да
melsaskca@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 323d
Did not know that. Thanks. Now all I can think of is "Vova The Impaler".
teft@piefed.social · 2 pts · 323d
Pretty sure his name was just Vlad. Not shortened from anything. His dad was also named Vlad.
njm1314@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 323d
Well that's swell and all, but you can't say that not do it. You can't make that kind of bluff to a bully like Russia and not back it up. Cuz if you do back down that's just emboldening the bully. They will view it as weakness and an invitation to go further. If they don't shoot down the next plane that crosses their border Russia will escalate significantly.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 323d
Most neighboring countries have a sour history with Russia, Poland top in the list.
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 323d
Russia and France, the two main villains in most history books
Difference france went threw a redemption arc while still staying their big blue blob
Auth@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 322d
This is a weak response from NATO. 19 drones and 2 jets flying into NATO airspace should have been enough to draw NATO into the war. Saying "hey dont do that again or their will be bare min consequences" is a nothing statement. Shooting down Russian Jets that have been in your airspace for 12mins should have been the default response at this point.
drhodl@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 323d
Ruzzian incursions and aggression will not stop until Vladimir Pootang grows tall, and develops an adult penis. Never have leaders with small pee pees, folks. Oh, wait a minute America....not like THAT !
Randomgal@lemmy.ca · -4 pts · 322d
'How dare they not do what they are told? They ha dit coming."
This is you rn. Sounds a lot like a wife beater.