GURPS Vehicles had some options that you needed to do a little calculus for, iirc. To be fair, that was an extremely optional add-on, and the calculations were done as part of designing your custom vehicle, not in play!
Their speed/range penalty calculation is also logarithmic I think, but nobody actually calculates that - you just look up the adjustments on the table, which is reprinted all over the place (rulebooks, character sheets,GM screens...)
Lol there have been some VERY obscure games that have tried this. Expectedly, they never took off and usually had many other problems with lacking fun.
Usually the author just liked math and wanted to pen-and-paper simulate a universe, but forgot to make it fun to care about or play in.
not for D&D, but in wargames with minis and terrain and stuff, I absolutely want to know the trajectory of the artillery shells being fired on my position. As well as the blast radius of the detonation and (if applicable) the size of the fireball and radius in which any shrapnel might be an issue.
Gotta know how many of my men are left and if their fortifications are left standing.
This feels like something Savage Worlds balances out really well while still keeping roleplaying intact and not bogging down the game too hard.
Heck, they've got major settings for Weird Wars Rome, I, II, and Vietnam. (Which would need minor adapting to the latest "Adventure Edition" rules)
You want to cinematically* handle a mass battle where your heroes influence the outcome, while summoned wraiths stalk the trenches or the Prussians deploy werewolves? Raid Castle Wolfenstein? Or maybe Legionairres unleash Hell via siege weapons on hordes of undead? That's your system.
*Ugh I'm tired of the word "cinematic" too, but essentially I mean it can keep the story focused around the players while remaining tactical without sinking into ultra complex calculations to simulate every event.
If it's 3rd edition you just do basic skill checks on any ones of the 30-odd should skills for everything. Yes, including leveling up.
If it's 4th edition you run a spreadsheet program to track the five dozen skills you selected and curse yourself as you have to walk down a stone stair but you only have points in walking up wooden stairs.
If it's 5th edition you basically play it like 3rd ed but with a point buy system that allows you to accurately construct an artistically inclined vintner with a large bladder.
(Yes, having a large bladder capacity is an official perk from an official rulebook but few DMs are going to be insane enough to actually play with that rulebook.)
This is exactly what I mean. The stairs thing seems to be a common joke.
"Roll to ascend the stairs." was a common joke in our group.
I remember all the spells being overly specific to the point of uselessness. "You can conjure a cat. It's just a regular cat and will probably flee from you. You can do this once a month and it costs a billion dollars."
DSA (aka The Dark Eye, as it's international release is called) does tend towards a low power level so magic is severely limited compared to e.g. D&D. You can throw fireballs but not as frequently. High-level magic can take days to recover from. I have my own criticisms of how the magic system works but it does work if you accept that a high-level TDE caster is at a lower power level than a mid-level D&D caster.
The overall complexity was insane in the 4th edition; 5th ed did a lot to fix that. There are still a lot of skills but it actually feels manageable now.
I actually like that the system can model mundane professions; it can be pretty cool to play a regular person who gets forced into adventure but is still competent at something, even if that something is not generally applicable to adventuring.
Yeah, it's just basic arithmetic with (usually) small numbers, and if you're the min-maxing type you might add probability calculation into it, but the latter is strictly optional and the former is basically the fun part about maths.
TBH I think probability calculation is fascinating, but it can get a bit cerebral if you want to do it during play.
I have a friend who once complained that adding 5ft every other diagonal was too complicated.
Now if you're playing 1st edition Pathfinder and juggling 7+ buffs some of which do stack and some don't, then yes that gets complicated. But an extra 5ft every other diagonal is easy.
If you're like me and countless others, my money is on the culprit of school being like "You don't get it yet? YOU'RE FAILING AND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. Look at the smart kid who is effortlessly succeeding! Let's dote on them!"
Like sheesh, of course I'd never want to try anything I don't have a natural affinity for. Thanks! Lol
I'm glad we realized this and broke out of it though. Many are not so lucky. :(
that is my primary suspect. but the problem persists into adulthood to. there is a generational rift between myself and the one before me where people don't want to teach what isn't already known. or just can't understand the process of learning enough to communicate effectively with eachother.
Math? I don't think that rpg talks about computing an integral or spending 2h arguing on whether we're on a Hilbert space and can compute a scalar product.
The only time I get too much to deal with is when I’m rolling four dice per attack, twice per round, and want to have a high level of confidence in my answer while also not taking up everyone’s time. For that I just made a spreadsheet and moved on with it.
You just need to skill in arithmancy. When you need to calculate something in game, roll a check and if you roll high enough the DM has to do the math for you.
"You must solve the puzzle to open the door! Okay, at midday a purple worm heads east at approximately 100 feet per minute, and a dragon leaves her lair at sundown going west at 480 feet per minute..."
EVE Online taught me speed distance time long before school did. It also helps that it's just intuitively obvious but that didn't stop it taking 2 whole lessons of physics.
Change the "what about dragons" answer to "eh, can be cool, but nothing special" and add "what about if we combine all those things?" And I answer "Oooh, that sounds fun!"
I love Owlcat games. But i absolutely hate that they have the math formulas in everything. Just tell me the results man, that's why I'm playing on a computer
To each their own, I love seeing the math because then I can miss six attacks in a row and go "Fuck you! That's bullshit! Those rolls are bullshit!" and then look in the combat log to see that no, those rolls weren't bullshit, they're just shit. Makes the game feel more fair. If they obfuscated the math and just said "Nah mate, you miss" x6 with no other explanation that would really piss me off.
Oh i don't mean during combat. I mean for spells and items, weapons and armor.
Magic Iron Armor
Protects character for (blah blah)x7(15 + armor base - stat whatever)
It's a computer program. Just list it as"protects character for 6", and have that 6 change based on the requirements. You know, like how every other dev team in the history of videogames has done it haha
But then you don't know how your gear scales! That's important knowledge!
If they were making a less number-crunchy game then I might agree with you but this is kind of just the nature of Pathfinder, honestly. It's a game for numbers nerds and your objective is to stack +68 to your attack rolls or saves via as many different avenues as possible. This isn't really Owlcat's fault I don't think, it's more just a consequence of choosing Pathfinder as the system to run your game in.
43 Comments
sundray@lemmus.org · 40 pts · 309d
"Do you want to play D&D with us? It's fun, you get to create a character, act out their dialog--"
sweeps majestic cape over their shoulder
"I shall BE THERE, with BELLS on! Excelsior!"
FerretyFever0@fedia.io · 26 pts · 309d
fdnomad@programming.dev · 21 pts · 309d
Gotta use trigonometry to accurately calculate the distance to flying enemies
Ziggurat@jlai.lu · 2 pts · 309d
Is there any rpg where you need to do so? May be Fatal?
5too@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 308d
GURPS Vehicles had some options that you needed to do a little calculus for, iirc. To be fair, that was an extremely optional add-on, and the calculations were done as part of designing your custom vehicle, not in play!
Their speed/range penalty calculation is also logarithmic I think, but nobody actually calculates that - you just look up the adjustments on the table, which is reprinted all over the place (rulebooks, character sheets,GM screens...)
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 309d
Lol there have been some VERY obscure games that have tried this. Expectedly, they never took off and usually had many other problems with lacking fun.
Usually the author just liked math and wanted to pen-and-paper simulate a universe, but forgot to make it fun to care about or play in.
Ziglin@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 308d
Plus all the other sweeties that the great old one warlock attracts from other dimensions.
Maestro@fedia.io · 10 pts · 309d
FerretyFever0@fedia.io · 6 pts · 309d
CrazyLikeGollum@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 309d
not for D&D, but in wargames with minis and terrain and stuff, I absolutely want to know the trajectory of the artillery shells being fired on my position. As well as the blast radius of the detonation and (if applicable) the size of the fireball and radius in which any shrapnel might be an issue.
Gotta know how many of my men are left and if their fortifications are left standing.
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 309d
This feels like something Savage Worlds balances out really well while still keeping roleplaying intact and not bogging down the game too hard.
Heck, they've got major settings for Weird Wars Rome, I, II, and Vietnam. (Which would need minor adapting to the latest "Adventure Edition" rules)
You want to cinematically* handle a mass battle where your heroes influence the outcome, while summoned wraiths stalk the trenches or the Prussians deploy werewolves? Raid Castle Wolfenstein? Or maybe Legionairres unleash Hell via siege weapons on hordes of undead? That's your system.
*Ugh I'm tired of the word "cinematic" too, but essentially I mean it can keep the story focused around the players while remaining tactical without sinking into ultra complex calculations to simulate every event.
zakobjoa@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 309d
Can I interest you in German TTRPG Das Schwarze Auge?
FerretyFever0@fedia.io · 8 pts · 309d
Jesus_666@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 308d
Oh come on. It's not that complicated.
If it's 3rd edition you just do basic skill checks on any ones of the 30-odd
shouldskills for everything. Yes, including leveling up.If it's 4th edition you run a spreadsheet program to track the five dozen skills you selected and curse yourself as you have to walk down a stone stair but you only have points in walking up wooden stairs.
If it's 5th edition you basically play it like 3rd ed but with a point buy system that allows you to accurately construct an artistically inclined vintner with a large bladder.
(Yes, having a large bladder capacity is an official perk from an official rulebook but few DMs are going to be insane enough to actually play with that rulebook.)
zakobjoa@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 308d
This is exactly what I mean. The stairs thing seems to be a common joke.
"Roll to ascend the stairs." was a common joke in our group.
I remember all the spells being overly specific to the point of uselessness. "You can conjure a cat. It's just a regular cat and will probably flee from you. You can do this once a month and it costs a billion dollars."
Jesus_666@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 308d
DSA (aka The Dark Eye, as it's international release is called) does tend towards a low power level so magic is severely limited compared to e.g. D&D. You can throw fireballs but not as frequently. High-level magic can take days to recover from. I have my own criticisms of how the magic system works but it does work if you accept that a high-level TDE caster is at a lower power level than a mid-level D&D caster.
The overall complexity was insane in the 4th edition; 5th ed did a lot to fix that. There are still a lot of skills but it actually feels manageable now.
I actually like that the system can model mundane professions; it can be pretty cool to play a regular person who gets forced into adventure but is still competent at something, even if that something is not generally applicable to adventuring.
primrosepathspeedrun@anarchist.nexus · 3 pts · 309d
Yes, ill bring draino and cesium chips!
rumschlumpel@feddit.org · 4 pts · 309d
Yeah, it's just basic arithmetic with (usually) small numbers, and if you're the min-maxing type you might add probability calculation into it, but the latter is strictly optional and the former is basically the fun part about maths.
TBH I think probability calculation is fascinating, but it can get a bit cerebral if you want to do it during play.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 309d
I have a friend who once complained that adding 5ft every other diagonal was too complicated.
Now if you're playing 1st edition Pathfinder and juggling 7+ buffs some of which do stack and some don't, then yes that gets complicated. But an extra 5ft every other diagonal is easy.
sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz · 23 pts · 309d
turns out I didn't hate improv or basic math, I just let something convince me that I should dislike things I'm bad at
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today · 11 pts · 309d
If you're like me and countless others, my money is on the culprit of school being like "You don't get it yet? YOU'RE FAILING AND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. Look at the smart kid who is effortlessly succeeding! Let's dote on them!"
Like sheesh, of course I'd never want to try anything I don't have a natural affinity for. Thanks! Lol
I'm glad we realized this and broke out of it though. Many are not so lucky. :(
sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 308d
that is my primary suspect. but the problem persists into adulthood to. there is a generational rift between myself and the one before me where people don't want to teach what isn't already known. or just can't understand the process of learning enough to communicate effectively with eachother.
Ziggurat@jlai.lu · 14 pts · 309d
Math? I don't think that rpg talks about computing an integral or spending 2h arguing on whether we're on a Hilbert space and can compute a scalar product.
Soup@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 309d
Ah, but you see, arithmetic is scary.
The only time I get too much to deal with is when I’m rolling four dice per attack, twice per round, and want to have a high level of confidence in my answer while also not taking up everyone’s time. For that I just made a spreadsheet and moved on with it.
squaresinger@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 309d
You just need to skill in arithmancy. When you need to calculate something in game, roll a check and if you roll high enough the DM has to do the math for you.
Soup@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 309d
Looool
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today · 6 pts · 309d
"You must solve the puzzle to open the door! Okay, at midday a purple worm heads east at approximately 100 feet per minute, and a dragon leaves her lair at sundown going west at 480 feet per minute..."
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 10 pts · 309d
I like live imorov, and dragons, but not math. That's why I'm a bard.
edgemaster72@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 309d
Music is just math that sounds good when you get it right. Can't help you if you're one of those dancing or fancy-talking bards, though.
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 4 pts · 309d
What's the mathenatically optimal guitar solo that'll "make them panties drop?" 🤔
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 309d
Mathematically...Free Bird? It always seems to be Free Bird.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 309d
Polymath bards exist
Rusty@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 308d
I like math and dragons, but hate live improv, do I'm playing Baldurs Gate.
Korhaka@sopuli.xyz · 8 pts · 309d
EVE Online taught me speed distance time long before school did. It also helps that it's just intuitively obvious but that didn't stop it taking 2 whole lessons of physics.
ButteryMonkey@piefed.social · 4 pts · 309d
I love hearing people talk about it a lot more than I have ever enjoyed playing.
That’s not to say I don’t enjoy playing it, certainly I do.
But I like the whole thing. You wanna tell me about your epic campaign? Or the ridiculous run? Cool. Those are stories I can consume without effort.
squaresinger@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 309d
That's why you become the DM
M137@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 309d
Change the "what about dragons" answer to "eh, can be cool, but nothing special" and add "what about if we combine all those things?" And I answer "Oooh, that sounds fun!"
Witchfire@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 309d
Don't forget legalese
BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 308d
THAC0 is the reason I am so good at maths.
TachyonTele@piefed.social · 1 pts · 309d
I love Owlcat games. But i absolutely hate that they have the math formulas in everything. Just tell me the results man, that's why I'm playing on a computer
skulblaka@sh.itjust.works · 14 pts · 309d
To each their own, I love seeing the math because then I can miss six attacks in a row and go "Fuck you! That's bullshit! Those rolls are bullshit!" and then look in the combat log to see that no, those rolls weren't bullshit, they're just shit. Makes the game feel more fair. If they obfuscated the math and just said "Nah mate, you miss" x6 with no other explanation that would really piss me off.
TachyonTele@piefed.social · 2 pts · 309d
Oh i don't mean during combat. I mean for spells and items, weapons and armor.
It's a computer program. Just list it as"protects character for 6", and have that 6 change based on the requirements. You know, like how every other dev team in the history of videogames has done it haha
skulblaka@sh.itjust.works · 11 pts · 309d
But then you don't know how your gear scales! That's important knowledge!
If they were making a less number-crunchy game then I might agree with you but this is kind of just the nature of Pathfinder, honestly. It's a game for numbers nerds and your objective is to stack +68 to your attack rolls or saves via as many different avenues as possible. This isn't really Owlcat's fault I don't think, it's more just a consequence of choosing Pathfinder as the system to run your game in.
TachyonTele@piefed.social · 0 pts · 309d
Nah it's Owlcat. They did the same thing with the 40k game.
Gryphon@ttrpg.network · 1 pts · 308d
"Dragons? Even less so!"
"What if there are gryphons?"
"Now you've got my interest."
iAvicenna@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 308d
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 301d
There are rpgs with little/no math.