I mean... That guy does kinda have a point. Demon Slayers slay more than demons. Speed Racer does more than race (and I never once saw him doing speed). Sailor Moon isn't just the one titular character. 🤷‍♂️
Frieren seems so chill and passive, except when it comes to demons and then it's like "NO THEIR KIND CANNOT BE TRUSTED", and everyone's like "will you chill? it's just a kid" and she's like "THE CHILD MUST DIE"
See my stackexchange post asking for clarification on this:
It's not that you came across as deranged, it's more that you seem to be of bad faith. People on stackexchange have answered to you calmly, seriously and respectfully, but your take from it was "how dare you" and "read the manga", which is pretty dishonest imo.
They also act like the show doesn't explore the dynamic at all, and that somehow it's not legitimate to say the manga has answers the show doesn't have when the manga is several arcs ahead of the anime. This person just wants to accuse people of being Nazis.
That last part was more of a joke. I hope people can look at my other answers (in that exchange and here) and see me as rational. 'Tis Christmas afterall
Couple of things here, demons aren’t an organic species in frieren, they’re crafted directly from magic itself to kill people. They’re 40k orcs, but slower to breed. They’re human shaped because of Darwinian mechanisms that allowed them to live longer in the shape of humans. Each any every one of them is a sociopath masking it with a malevolently high iq, with psychology of an inherently foreign base.
They’re allowed to exist freely, they choose war at every turn as their base. In fact, their king seeks coexistence and understanding, but does so by genociding humanity for a literal millennium in order to build a psychological basis for humankind’s behavior. Some demon leaders suggested that humanity would be completely wiped out long before their king might finally bridge the gap.
Attempts at coexistence continue to occur, but all turned out to be subterfuge, with the ends being genocide. There’s a vague suggestion that this is a time travel based Douglas Adams-esque god crafted world-computer created to quantize human psychology, but that is also monstrous. Anyway, read the comic if you want to understand.
“John Carpenter’s The Thing plays with the premise that rapidly changing attitudes and malleable thinking will get you killed.”
Sometimes an inherently destructive force is just an inherently destructive force. You can choose to discard the premise of a story to suit a narrative of persecution, or you can read a story that is actually about persecution.
Did you read the top reply? It doesn't even mention the manga and explains exactly, what I would have thought was the answer to your question. Maybe the manga goes more into detail (later?), but the main parts are there:
Demons are an inherently evil species.
They are intelligent and I don't think their intelligence mimics humans, they just sometimes mimic humans to survive (like talking about their mother, which they don't have)
They always kill eventually and it was their goal from the get-go.
Do I find this trope boring? A bit.
Does it fit the show? I think so.
Is it wrong to have such a species in a show? No.
It's fantasy and most races can work together. Having an irredeemably evil race as enemy just makes it easier to ignore ethical questions in fights (for me and a lot of other people).
Because if the show tells us, that they are indeed always and irredeemably evil, then we can ignore all those questions and just enjoy the fight. (Jajaja, that's what the Nazis did still do, I know!)
I wouldn't say they're evil. It's basically like thinking you can be friends with a tiger. They're on a completely alien ethical framework to humans. Killing humans is the natural thing to do, so of course they do it.
Frieren actually is exploring something here. The demons actually aren't human, and the show sets her up as appearing intolerant to show that no, these actually just aren't people
The demons are just demons. They just want to eat people. They're intelligent, but entirely alien
They're the old school pure evil anime demons, but in a time where demons in anime have become relatable
It just feels like a waste kind of to kill them though. Humanity learned so much by reverse-engineering, and then later refining their magic. To kill them before understanding everything they have to offer, feels.... limiting somehow
Don't you see?? That's greed. Why do you need their magic? Only to fight them and each other better!
There's nothing to be gained by keeping them around, they are just predators of sapient people. Their magic is made to dominate and kill
Frieren has the raw strength to dominate and kill, but she doesn't value that kind of magic despite her skill in it. She wants to create fields of flowers, she seeks beauty instead of violence. Her violence isn't about genocide, it's about protecting what she values
You're getting a lot of shit, but I get you. When the demons were introduced, I had a moment of "ayo what if Frieren is the baddie the whole time and demons are misunderstood". The only thing is it quickly solidifies that the demons are just evil, even though I don't necessarily like that one-dimensional narrative of good and evil.
It probably doesn't help that I finished Attack on Titan just before so I already had elusive, internalized fascism on my mind. I think that's sort of the point with Frieren though. She's supposed to be capital G Good, which is inexplicably brutal toward evil, and that's where the dimensionality comes in.
I still can't get where AoT lies on the fascism spectrum
::: spoiler spoiler
On the one hand you've got these group of powerful people who were almost genocided, and then on the other you've get them genociding the rest of the world back as an ultimate survival strategy.
But Eren's final form doesn't exactly have the audience rooting for him, even when his motivations are explained. I expected another season where the whole world would unite to take him down, but that did not seem to happen...
:::
So I just can't figure AoT out. Was the whole thing a commentary on fascism itself, or was it literally a revenge/survival plot?
I heard (not sure how true it is) that the manga creator is politically far-right. That's actually hilarious to me, and it might be the reason the message seems odd. The whole anime is like an essay on how shitty fascism is for the fascists, but then it takes a left turn while lying on its side, if you will.
Downvoted for being right, the fact that more people aren't suspicious of an anime with a bunch of german names and aesthetics that also just happens to feature a race of non-people who are incurably evil and can never be trusted is baffling to me
I'd say that the German aesthetic prevails in anime largely because it's got those idealistic ruralist one-with-nature mountain vibes, rather than the love for fascism.
Southern Germany especially is a beautiful idealistic landscape (warst du schonmal in...), though nowadays you'd see the "old europe" more in places like Bosnia than in Germany, but Bosnian culture is less accessible
Frieren's fascism seems to be largely a personal thing specific to her, rather than something that all the other characters exhibit. I'm hoping there's an arc that proves her wrong in her beliefs about demons
Germany is beautiful, sure, so are most countries, you can find similar rural beauty in Africa, the fact that the country that Japan was allied with for WW2 is the go-to for this isn't a coincidence. I'd love to see an arc that alleviates my suspicions, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
I'd rather believe they chose Germany because it's dead center of europe with mashups of all kinds of influences from surrounding regions, densely populated like Japan is, and has wild ancient forests along with long-standing organized institutions (scientific academies, churches, military) that jells with the conservative Japanese obsession for order, custom, and Nature.
You died for 7 minutes on the operating table and went into a coma. We are experimental researchers trying to communicate to you through a new brain interface. We are trying to get you to wake up.
Gay: My gay friends eat beans. Anon eats beans. Ergo, anon is gay. QED.
Edit: My roommate, who is pansexual, says I should have said anon is pan “because you can put beans in a pan” …I think we might both just be very sleep deprived because, rereading this, I’m not sure either joke is actually funny at all but we’re cracking up lol
According to another comment this was in response to someone complaining that Goblin Slayer only has Goblins and no other monsters.
So Anon "Bought a Can of Beans" by watching an anime about a guy called the Goblin Slayer, and is mad that there "Wasn't any salad in the Can of Beans," because all he does is... Slay Goblins.
72 Comments
TheNamlessGuy@lemmy.world · 217 pts · 271d
onionsinmypores@sh.itjust.works · 100 pts · 271d
This is very important, thanks
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 7 pts · 270d
I mean... That guy does kinda have a point. Demon Slayers slay more than demons. Speed Racer does more than race (and I never once saw him doing speed). Sailor Moon isn't just the one titular character. 🤷‍♂️
uncouple9831@lemmy.zip · 11 pts · 270d
VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 270d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
uncouple9831@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 269d
Almacca@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 269d
The Baron Munchausen disagrees.
uncouple9831@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 269d
VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 270d
Buffy barely slew any vampires after the second or third season.
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 5 pts · 270d
I believe they even have a couple 4th wall breaking jokes about that, too.
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 270d
Scope creep destroys not only software projects.
tetris11@feddit.uk · -22 pts · 271d
what a boorish genocidal anime, with such a kickass theme song
stray@pawb.social · 19 pts · 271d
I'm not making an argument, but I'm curious whether you feel the same way about demons in Frieren.
tetris11@feddit.uk · -6 pts · 271d
I do.
Frieren seems so chill and passive, except when it comes to demons and then it's like "NO THEIR KIND CANNOT BE TRUSTED", and everyone's like "will you chill? it's just a kid" and she's like "THE CHILD MUST DIE"
See my stackexchange post asking for clarification on this:
https://anime.stackexchange.com/questions/68783/on-what-basis-does-frieren-sousou-no-frieren-reject-the-rights-of-demons-to-ex
Apparently the answer is "all is explained in the manga, how dare you ask this question"
Feyd@programming.dev · 20 pts · 271d
Wow the only thing true in this post is that you asked a question on stack exchange
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 271d
I guess I was trying to be funny, but came across as deranged(?)
Apologies to anyone I offended
TheYojimbo@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 271d
It's not that you came across as deranged, it's more that you seem to be of bad faith. People on stackexchange have answered to you calmly, seriously and respectfully, but your take from it was "how dare you" and "read the manga", which is pretty dishonest imo.
Feyd@programming.dev · 5 pts · 271d
They also act like the show doesn't explore the dynamic at all, and that somehow it's not legitimate to say the manga has answers the show doesn't have when the manga is several arcs ahead of the anime. This person just wants to accuse people of being Nazis.
tetris11@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 270d
That last part was more of a joke. I hope people can look at my other answers (in that exchange and here) and see me as rational. 'Tis Christmas afterall
Gullible@sh.itjust.works · 18 pts · 271d
Couple of things here, demons aren’t an organic species in frieren, they’re crafted directly from magic itself to kill people. They’re 40k orcs, but slower to breed. They’re human shaped because of Darwinian mechanisms that allowed them to live longer in the shape of humans. Each any every one of them is a sociopath masking it with a malevolently high iq, with psychology of an inherently foreign base.
They’re allowed to exist freely, they choose war at every turn as their base. In fact, their king seeks coexistence and understanding, but does so by genociding humanity for a literal millennium in order to build a psychological basis for humankind’s behavior. Some demon leaders suggested that humanity would be completely wiped out long before their king might finally bridge the gap.
Attempts at coexistence continue to occur, but all turned out to be subterfuge, with the ends being genocide. There’s a vague suggestion that this is a time travel based Douglas Adams-esque god crafted world-computer created to quantize human psychology, but that is also monstrous. Anyway, read the comic if you want to understand.
AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 270d
Maybe the themes of a piece of media should be judged by our standards in our world instead of going by the built in justifications of its author
Gullible@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 270d
“John Carpenter’s The Thing plays with the premise that rapidly changing attitudes and malleable thinking will get you killed.”
Sometimes an inherently destructive force is just an inherently destructive force. You can choose to discard the premise of a story to suit a narrative of persecution, or you can read a story that is actually about persecution.
AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 270d
brain completely eaten by worms
remon@ani.social · 14 pts · 271d
Definitely not, the show is pretty much a 1:1 adaptation of the manga.
Feyd@programming.dev · 4 pts · 271d
That also wasn't the answer they received on stack exchange. The anime is also still being adapted, and the manga isn't even finished.
Black616Angel@discuss.tchncs.de · 13 pts · 271d
Did you read the top reply? It doesn't even mention the manga and explains exactly, what I would have thought was the answer to your question. Maybe the manga goes more into detail (later?), but the main parts are there:
Do I find this trope boring? A bit.
Does it fit the show? I think so. Is it wrong to have such a species in a show? No.
It's fantasy and most races can work together. Having an irredeemably evil race as enemy just makes it easier to ignore ethical questions in fights (for me and a lot of other people).
Because if the show tells us, that they are indeed always and irredeemably evil, then we can ignore all those questions and just enjoy the fight. (Jajaja, that's what the Nazis
didstill do, I know!)Feyd@programming.dev · 8 pts · 271d
I wouldn't say they're evil. It's basically like thinking you can be friends with a tiger. They're on a completely alien ethical framework to humans. Killing humans is the natural thing to do, so of course they do it.
theneverfox@pawb.social · 4 pts · 270d
Frieren actually is exploring something here. The demons actually aren't human, and the show sets her up as appearing intolerant to show that no, these actually just aren't people
The demons are just demons. They just want to eat people. They're intelligent, but entirely alien
They're the old school pure evil anime demons, but in a time where demons in anime have become relatable
tetris11@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 269d
It just feels like a waste kind of to kill them though. Humanity learned so much by reverse-engineering, and then later refining their magic. To kill them before understanding everything they have to offer, feels.... limiting somehow
theneverfox@pawb.social · 2 pts · 269d
Don't you see?? That's greed. Why do you need their magic? Only to fight them and each other better!
There's nothing to be gained by keeping them around, they are just predators of sapient people. Their magic is made to dominate and kill
Frieren has the raw strength to dominate and kill, but she doesn't value that kind of magic despite her skill in it. She wants to create fields of flowers, she seeks beauty instead of violence. Her violence isn't about genocide, it's about protecting what she values
degen@midwest.social · 3 pts · 270d
You're getting a lot of shit, but I get you. When the demons were introduced, I had a moment of "ayo what if Frieren is the baddie the whole time and demons are misunderstood". The only thing is it quickly solidifies that the demons are just evil, even though I don't necessarily like that one-dimensional narrative of good and evil.
It probably doesn't help that I finished Attack on Titan just before so I already had elusive, internalized fascism on my mind. I think that's sort of the point with Frieren though. She's supposed to be capital G Good, which is inexplicably brutal toward evil, and that's where the dimensionality comes in.
tetris11@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 269d
I still can't get where AoT lies on the fascism spectrum
::: spoiler spoiler On the one hand you've got these group of powerful people who were almost genocided, and then on the other you've get them genociding the rest of the world back as an ultimate survival strategy.
But Eren's final form doesn't exactly have the audience rooting for him, even when his motivations are explained. I expected another season where the whole world would unite to take him down, but that did not seem to happen... :::
So I just can't figure AoT out. Was the whole thing a commentary on fascism itself, or was it literally a revenge/survival plot?
degen@midwest.social · 2 pts · 269d
I heard (not sure how true it is) that the manga creator is politically far-right. That's actually hilarious to me, and it might be the reason the message seems odd. The whole anime is like an essay on how shitty fascism is for the fascists, but then it takes a left turn while lying on its side, if you will.
tetris11@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 268d
definitely feels like it's trying to say something without saying it
absentbird@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 270d
Do you feel the same way about zombies?
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 270d
They do not exhibit intelligence, learning strategies, and we do not reverse engineer their methods to surpass them. So, no.
absentbird@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 270d
Thanks, that's illuminating.
stray@pawb.social · 2 pts · 271d
Damn, people are real mad you don't like their elf waifu.
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 271d
Downvoted for being right, the fact that more people aren't suspicious of an anime with a bunch of german names and aesthetics that also just happens to feature a race of non-people who are incurably evil and can never be trusted is baffling to me
tetris11@feddit.uk · 9 pts · 271d
I'd say that the German aesthetic prevails in anime largely because it's got those idealistic ruralist one-with-nature mountain vibes, rather than the love for fascism.
Southern Germany especially is a beautiful idealistic landscape (warst du schonmal in...), though nowadays you'd see the "old europe" more in places like Bosnia than in Germany, but Bosnian culture is less accessible
Frieren's fascism seems to be largely a personal thing specific to her, rather than something that all the other characters exhibit. I'm hoping there's an arc that proves her wrong in her beliefs about demons
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 271d
Germany is beautiful, sure, so are most countries, you can find similar rural beauty in Africa, the fact that the country that Japan was allied with for WW2 is the go-to for this isn't a coincidence. I'd love to see an arc that alleviates my suspicions, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
tetris11@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 271d
I'd rather believe they chose Germany because it's dead center of europe with mashups of all kinds of influences from surrounding regions, densely populated like Japan is, and has wild ancient forests along with long-standing organized institutions (scientific academies, churches, military) that jells with the conservative Japanese obsession for order, custom, and Nature.
(...But, yeah - it could just be axis-love)
stray@pawb.social · 2 pts · 271d
I'm told there is not.
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 271d
well, dang.
Soulg@ani.social · 10 pts · 271d
I hope you learn to enjoy fiction and stop being so miserable for your own sake
AlexanderTheDead@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 270d
Idk doesn't sound very miserable, just sounds like you got angry because they don't like Goblin Slayer.
So, I guess... I hope you learn to enjoy reality and stop being so miserable for your own sake.
someguy3@lemmy.world · 68 pts · 271d
What?
notreallyhere@lemmy.world · 35 pts · 271d
Hozerkiller@lemmy.ca · 18 pts · 271d
It's because goblin slayer is about a guy slaying just goblins.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 11 pts · 271d
I think the British put tomato sauce in their canned beans.
GandalftheBlack@feddit.org · 6 pts · 271d
Yeah, the commercially available baked beans (not baked) are in a horrible sweet tomato sauce. I haven't eaten any in a long time.
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 271d
GandalftheBlack@feddit.org · 4 pts · 271d
Two things can be disgusting
Darkenfolk@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 270d
Mimimimi
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 262d
You died for 7 minutes on the operating table and went into a coma. We are experimental researchers trying to communicate to you through a new brain interface. We are trying to get you to wake up.
Are you ready to be woke?
Protoknuckles@lemmy.world · 46 pts · 271d
Is this a metaphor I'm not recognizing?
QueenHawlSera@sh.itjust.works · 14 pts · 271d
It's a metaphor for entitled Karens
SantasMagicalComfort@piefed.world · 10 pts · 271d
Why did you say Karens twice?
massive_bereavement@fedia.io · 9 pts · 271d
Sahara desert.
village604@adultswim.fan · 5 pts · 271d
No, it's a response to someone complaining that you only kill Goblins in the game Goblin Slayer
PapaStevesy@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 270d
So not no, but actually yes
AnarchoEngineer@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 36 pts · 271d
Fake: one can is surely not a bit too many beans
Gay: My gay friends eat beans. Anon eats beans. Ergo, anon is gay. QED.
Edit: My roommate, who is pansexual, says I should have said anon is pan “because you can put beans in a pan” …I think we might both just be very sleep deprived because, rereading this, I’m not sure either joke is actually funny at all but we’re cracking up lol
coherent_domain@infosec.pub · 6 pts · 271d
You can also put tomato and salad in a pan, but there is no tomato and salad, and that is sad.
djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 271d
no no no, you're right that's a good joke
onionsinmypores@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 271d
The fakeness and gayness test is always mandatory, don't worry about funniness
Alexstarfire@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 271d
Am I too normal to understand this?
Macchi_the_Slime@piefed.blahaj.zone · 21 pts · 271d
According to another comment this was in response to someone complaining that Goblin Slayer only has Goblins and no other monsters.
So Anon "Bought a Can of Beans" by watching an anime about a guy called the Goblin Slayer, and is mad that there "Wasn't any salad in the Can of Beans," because all he does is... Slay Goblins.
vivalapivo@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 270d
You come to c/Greentext. You receive a green text. You don't get the joke. You come to comments in order to complain
Salamanderwizard@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 271d
It's a mad world.
janus2@lemmy.zip · 10 pts · 271d
i hope anon takes their meds :(
capuccino@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 270d
>Anon buys a can of beans.
> It comes with AI.
web_typer_wiper@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 269d
Lol
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 271d