Thanks for this link. It's good analysis. I found the tweet so viscerally offensive that I struggled to articulate the specifics of how it was so fucked, so I appreciate seeing someone break it down.
Yes, he has a responsibility to both side a conflict as a diplomat trying to maintain influence with Israel, the side that has all the power.
Civilians are always hostages. It'd be more reasonable to call the Palestinians being held hostages than to call the Israeli hostages "prisoners of war". There's also clearly more of a delineation between the IDF and the Israeli civilians than there is in the Gaza populace and the "fighters". Partly because Israelis are the aggressors, of course.
He can't be a person who just rages on social media about it if he wants the best outcome.
You can definitely argue that this is caving to Israel. He's literally being the definition of the word "diplomatic".
I take it as the families of Israelis affected by the events of 7 October, and the entirety of the Palestinian Gazan people. How this is dehumanizing language is beyond me tbh.
This tweet is best understood in the context of the consistently biased media coverage that we've seen over the last few years, in which Israeli deaths and injuries are covered far more frequently and with more emotive language than those of Palestinians. This is despite the fact that the harm to Palestinians is far larger, both in terms of the brutality inflicted upon civilians, and the scale of deaths. This is a genocide.
And yes, I'm using the word "Palestinian", because besides the fact that Palestinians in the West Bank have also been severely affected by this conflict (as well as being systematically oppressed by the apartheid regime even before October 7th), Israeli politicians have made it abundantly clear that complete genocide of Palestinians in their goal.
If you want more on Bias. Also, let's make one thing clear: This isn't a genocide against the Gazan people, it's a genocide against the Palestinian people. Gazans are Palestinians in diaspora. Israel has been working nonstop to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians in Palestine whether that's in Gaza, West Bank, or the rest of the occupied territories. Anyone acting like it's just Gaza or the "Gazans" is part of the problem. It might seem pendantic, but it's too late for some half-assed lip service bullshit, especially from those that have been complicit, enablers, and the primary drivers of this genocide and oppression 100 years in the making.
@finitebanjo
The hasbara is thick, so it's difficult to get reliable information. The Nova festival was a very small part of the operation. Hamas reportedly didn't even know it was on. Israeli sources say that 44 hostages were taken there. Some were soldiers or security personnel, but it's hard to know how many.
Overall, around 250 hostages were taken that day. The border was breached at 119 locations. It's heavily militarised, so there were plenty of soldiers to capture (or kill). Israel deliberately obfuscates how many of the hostages were military.
If you want the criticism to lose all meaning sure…
Nuance and critical thought matter here, without them you undermined your own criticism/opinion.
Criticizing the choice of language can be fair, in the context of Oct 7 one could argue the language wasn’t malicious or even wrong… Regardless it’s fair to debate and there’s reason for concern, and reason to be mindful of language in the future.
It’s the bullshit equivocation that’s the issue.
This isn’t the same as sucking Bibi’s dick then bombing the fuck out Gaza and then having your kids describe the bombed out land as “nice beach front property” as they illegally deal themselves a hand in the aftermath like vultures. Thats a uniquely Trump/gop level of corruption that you seem desperate to normalize.
All it does is make Trump look like Obama not the other way around. All this does is normalize Trump. This shit isn’t normal nor historically consistent.
No I have proportionate responses to both that’s the thing. There’s as much nuance here as calling Biden genocidal. Look how that turned out. Great for Jared Kushner.
You're more upset people are calling Biden genocidal than Biden BEING genocidal, else you wouldn't bring it up. The only difference between Obama, Trump, and Biden are the aesthetics and timeline of the violence and how much of a mask each wears. Are you fine with this violence so long as you aren't forced to be made aware of it? Maybe it's worth considering you're the violent one here since you seem keen on equivocating the words and actions of violence. An invisible violence half a world away doesn't affect you, but a crude and very loudly violent person who does the same actions might interrupt your brunch.
He won't, because it comes with political repercussions, but what he should do is to call things by their names: that this is a bloody massacre, an extermination campaign conducted by Israel with the blessing and sponsorship of the US, while the whole fucking rest of the world was too coward to actually step in, so they looked away.
But instead of demanding accountability, he's washing away the blood and preparing to move on like nothing happened and nobody is to blame. It's disgusting, revolting. The tweet reply is right, Obama is probably one of the biggest disappointments of the generation.
I can't believe they gave the guy a peace Nobel prize, they should take it back.
Edit: you genuinely couldn't think of why people would be mad at Obama? And if you're not one of these "critics" yourself, then where do you stand? Because it sounds like you're sitting on the fence so hard that you have barbed wire shoved up your ass.
It's just politicians jerking each other off for fucking us over. Don't pay attention to it and most of all don't respect it. It's nothing. It's the only way to make gold less valuable.
you genuinely couldn’t think of why people would be mad at Obama?
Of course I can, people are furious because of his soothing rhetoric in an attempt to pacify well warranted rage over obvious crime.
And if you’re not one of these “critics” yourself, then where do you stand?
I'm not 'on the fence' at all. My stance is that we demand accountability and concrete measures of justice rather than directing rage at inconsequential platitudes of retired politicians. Moralizing words won't fix anything. The mixed replies my comment received illustrate what I was getting at with my initial questions quite well imho
I'm sorry you interpreted my comment as 'defending imperialist propaganda'. I'll remove the comment if it brings you peace. I'm also kinda confused how 'anarchists' got dragged into this as well
"His critics" that he seems "unable to please" are the ones against genocide, they're pretty easy to please just don't support genocide.
This is of course the more charitable and straightforward inerpretation of what you said. If what you meant was "he can't please everybody" why phrase it like that and what a stupid thing to say when one side is pro and the other antigenocide and he is currently appealing to the pro-genocide crowd.
it's fascinating how American propaganda made it so people look at a neoliberal war criminal, and consider them a leftist because he didn't persecute gays.
53 Comments
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · 56 pts · 331d
Well of course Palestinians don't have families. The Israelis have killed most of them.
pyre@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 331d
deliberately too. they specifically murder family members in front of others. they're the worst, most vicious terrorists in recent memory.
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 331d
Well duh. To be effective, terror demands an audience.
DropBear@theblower.au · 35 pts · 332d
"Let’s take his statement apart line by line because every sentence in that post was a masterclass in how empire speaks empathy while protecting itself."
https://drstaceypatton1865.substack.com/p/the-elegance-of-empire-how-barack
@palestine@lemmy.ml @palestine@fedibird.com
#Gaza
#CrimesAgainstHumanity
#genocide
#hasbara
AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 331d
Thanks for this link. It's good analysis. I found the tweet so viscerally offensive that I struggled to articulate the specifics of how it was so fucked, so I appreciate seeing someone break it down.
DropBear@theblower.au · 1 pts · 331d
@AnarchistArtificer
I couldn't quite put my finger on what felt so wrong about the tweet. Dr Patton clarifies things admirably.
ideonek@piefed.social · 26 pts · 332d
Wait, wait... Palestinians are mentioned! When he talks about... shared responsibilities. Never mind, go on.
kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 17 pts · 331d
Its Obama, what do you expect from that war criminal?
Serinus@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 332d
Yes, he has a responsibility to both side a conflict as a diplomat trying to maintain influence with Israel, the side that has all the power.
Civilians are always hostages. It'd be more reasonable to call the Palestinians being held hostages than to call the Israeli hostages "prisoners of war". There's also clearly more of a delineation between the IDF and the Israeli civilians than there is in the Gaza populace and the "fighters". Partly because Israelis are the aggressors, of course.
He can't be a person who just rages on social media about it if he wants the best outcome.
You can definitely argue that this is caving to Israel. He's literally being the definition of the word "diplomatic".
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 331d
In the presence of genocide I believe he can be judged by a more absolute moral barometer, regardless of his role or designation.
How does history reflect on those that remained silent during the Holocaust or Armenian genocide?
Obama seeks to put himself in that group with his assessment here.
superniceperson@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 331d
He's not a diplomat. He's a guy that has been paid at least tens of millions by israel.
null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 15 pts · 332d
Oh man. I'm pretty sure "genocide studies" classes aren't going to be talking about Obama.
Bothsidesing indeed.
robador51@lemmy.ml · 15 pts · 331d
I take it as the families of Israelis affected by the events of 7 October, and the entirety of the
PalestinianGazan people. How this is dehumanizing language is beyond me tbh.AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net · 10 pts · 331d
This tweet is best understood in the context of the consistently biased media coverage that we've seen over the last few years, in which Israeli deaths and injuries are covered far more frequently and with more emotive language than those of Palestinians. This is despite the fact that the harm to Palestinians is far larger, both in terms of the brutality inflicted upon civilians, and the scale of deaths. This is a genocide.
And yes, I'm using the word "Palestinian", because besides the fact that Palestinians in the West Bank have also been severely affected by this conflict (as well as being systematically oppressed by the apartheid regime even before October 7th), Israeli politicians have made it abundantly clear that complete genocide of Palestinians in their goal.
Dreamer@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 330d
Analyzing the bias in BBC reporting in Palestine
Coverage of Gaza War in the New York Times and Other Major Newspapers Heavily Favored Israel, Analysis Shows
Western coverage of Gaza: A textbook case of coloniser’s journalism
If you want more on Bias. Also, let's make one thing clear: This isn't a genocide against the Gazan people, it's a genocide against the Palestinian people. Gazans are Palestinians in diaspora. Israel has been working nonstop to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians in Palestine whether that's in Gaza, West Bank, or the rest of the occupied territories. Anyone acting like it's just Gaza or the "Gazans" is part of the problem. It might seem pendantic, but it's too late for some half-assed lip service bullshit, especially from those that have been complicit, enablers, and the primary drivers of this genocide and oppression 100 years in the making.
Core_of_Arden@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 331d
Obama is evil!
finitebanjo@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 328d
I'm out of the loop, weren't the hostages in gaza taken from the music festival attack two years ago? When did they capture soldiers?
DropBear@theblower.au · 0 pts · 328d
@finitebanjo
The hasbara is thick, so it's difficult to get reliable information. The Nova festival was a very small part of the operation. Hamas reportedly didn't even know it was on. Israeli sources say that 44 hostages were taken there. Some were soldiers or security personnel, but it's hard to know how many.
Overall, around 250 hostages were taken that day. The border was breached at 119 locations. It's heavily militarised, so there were plenty of soldiers to capture (or kill). Israel deliberately obfuscates how many of the hostages were military.
@palestine@lemmy.ml
@palestine@fedibird.com
#Gaza
#CrimesAgainstHumanity
#genocide
#hasbara
finitebanjo@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 327d
The fuck? You're telling me a largescale coordinated attack which happened on the day of a festival didn't knkw about the festival?
DropBear@theblower.au · 1 pts · 327d
@finitebanjo
The attack was planned well before the festival was announced. Israel reportedly knew of the plans in 2022. The festival apparently became part of the operation, only when some militants came across it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
@palestine@lemmy.ml
@palestine@fedibird.com
#Gaza
#CrimesAgainstHumanity
#genocide
#hasbara
Scotty_Trees@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 331d
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 331d
Two people can be criticized at the same time.
Beetschnapps@lemmy.world · -7 pts · 331d
If you want the criticism to lose all meaning sure…
Nuance and critical thought matter here, without them you undermined your own criticism/opinion.
Criticizing the choice of language can be fair, in the context of Oct 7 one could argue the language wasn’t malicious or even wrong… Regardless it’s fair to debate and there’s reason for concern, and reason to be mindful of language in the future.
It’s the bullshit equivocation that’s the issue.
This isn’t the same as sucking Bibi’s dick then bombing the fuck out Gaza and then having your kids describe the bombed out land as “nice beach front property” as they illegally deal themselves a hand in the aftermath like vultures. Thats a uniquely Trump/gop level of corruption that you seem desperate to normalize.
All it does is make Trump look like Obama not the other way around. All this does is normalize Trump. This shit isn’t normal nor historically consistent.
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 331d
I'm sorry but who is equivocating Trump to Obama here?
Beetschnapps@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 331d
It’s the effect regardless
Jentu@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 331d
You’re more upset by words of violence than violence itself.
Beetschnapps@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 331d
No I have proportionate responses to both that’s the thing. There’s as much nuance here as calling Biden genocidal. Look how that turned out. Great for Jared Kushner.
Jentu@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 330d
You're more upset people are calling Biden genocidal than Biden BEING genocidal, else you wouldn't bring it up. The only difference between Obama, Trump, and Biden are the aesthetics and timeline of the violence and how much of a mask each wears. Are you fine with this violence so long as you aren't forced to be made aware of it? Maybe it's worth considering you're the violent one here since you seem keen on equivocating the words and actions of violence. An invisible violence half a world away doesn't affect you, but a crude and very loudly violent person who does the same actions might interrupt your brunch.
BradleyUffner@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 331d
Ging@anarchist.nexus · -7 pts · 332d
I'm kinda hearing the critique, but also can't think of what he could say that would please the critics here
JackbyDev@programming.dev · 22 pts · 331d
Calling it a genocide would be nice. The UN used the term. Everyone in power is scared to say it because of the legal obligations involved.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works · 18 pts · 331d
Here's an option.
"We must end this genocide, and stopping any and all funds to Israel, coupled with heavy sanctions and the threat of war is a great start."
Look how concise it could be.
ByteJunk@lemmy.world · -9 pts · 331d
You could make it shorter: "Bernie Sanders is right."
This will also save a lot of work on a broad range of topics.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 331d
If we're going that route
"Don't be an ass"
ByteJunk@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 331d
He won't, because it comes with political repercussions, but what he should do is to call things by their names: that this is a bloody massacre, an extermination campaign conducted by Israel with the blessing and sponsorship of the US, while the whole fucking rest of the world was too coward to actually step in, so they looked away.
But instead of demanding accountability, he's washing away the blood and preparing to move on like nothing happened and nobody is to blame. It's disgusting, revolting. The tweet reply is right, Obama is probably one of the biggest disappointments of the generation.
I can't believe they gave the guy a peace Nobel prize, they should take it back.
Edit: you genuinely couldn't think of why people would be mad at Obama? And if you're not one of these "critics" yourself, then where do you stand? Because it sounds like you're sitting on the fence so hard that you have barbed wire shoved up your ass.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 331d
That prize means fucking nothing.
It's just politicians jerking each other off for fucking us over. Don't pay attention to it and most of all don't respect it. It's nothing. It's the only way to make gold less valuable.
Ging@anarchist.nexus · -1 pts · 331d
Of course I can, people are furious because of his soothing rhetoric in an attempt to pacify well warranted rage over obvious crime.
I'm not 'on the fence' at all. My stance is that we demand accountability and concrete measures of justice rather than directing rage at inconsequential platitudes of retired politicians. Moralizing words won't fix anything. The mixed replies my comment received illustrate what I was getting at with my initial questions quite well imho
eldavi@lemmy.ml · 10 pts · 331d
it's so annoying when critics complain of annoying things like genocide and ethnic cleansing; ugh.
Heidentweet@todon.eu · 2 pts · 331d
@Ging Maybe reconsider that "anarchist" when you're defending imperialist propaganda with that "imperialist Obama can't please the critics here."
@DropBear
Ging@anarchist.nexus · -1 pts · 331d
I'm sorry you interpreted my comment as 'defending imperialist propaganda'. I'll remove the comment if it brings you peace. I'm also kinda confused how 'anarchists' got dragged into this as well
Pandantic@midwest.social · 2 pts · 331d
Pretty sure they’re referring to your instance name, anarchist.nexus.
Ging@anarchist.nexus · 1 pts · 331d
That is the SLD isn't it. I still don't know what they were saying about it or the concept tho
Aliktren@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 331d
TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 331d
Free Palestine.
Ging@anarchist.nexus · -1 pts · 331d
Thank you for being probably the only one that understood my comment
mathemachristian@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 331d
Everyone understood your comment, they are the only one that agrees with it
Ging@anarchist.nexus · 0 pts · 331d
I'm sure it seems that way to the others that don't get it too
mathemachristian@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 330d
"His critics" that he seems "unable to please" are the ones against genocide, they're pretty easy to please just don't support genocide.
This is of course the more charitable and straightforward inerpretation of what you said. If what you meant was "he can't please everybody" why phrase it like that and what a stupid thing to say when one side is pro and the other antigenocide and he is currently appealing to the pro-genocide crowd.
Ging@anarchist.nexus · 1 pts · 330d
I'm sure it seems stupid to those that don't get it too.
mathemachristian@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 330d
😆
Ultraword@lemmy.ml · -25 pts · 331d
Yes, Obama was an horrible leftist that pushed the needle far. Finally people are waking up to the damage he did while in office.
procapra@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 331d
Obama was not a leftist.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 9 pts · 331d
Can you name a single "leftist" policy the deporter-in-chief implemented?
DropBear@theblower.au · 6 pts · 331d
Wow, @Ultraword
joined 6 October
no posts
no followers
following nobody
Got kicked out of everywhere, I guess.
🤔
I can't imagine why. 🤣
IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 330d
it's fascinating how American propaganda made it so people look at a neoliberal war criminal, and consider them a leftist because he didn't persecute gays.
Dreamer@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 330d
I legit thought you were being sarcastic when you referred to Obama as leftist.