Eh, I'm fine with them wearing masks. I'm not fine with them breaking the law and not being accountable. If they wear masks (or even if they don't), they need to be ready to show ID and recite their badge number.
No, they are law enforcement and should be readily identifiable the community they serve. Including their face. Also being masked makes it harder for the people they're interacting with to understand what they're saying. They lose all the non-verbal communication that comes from the face. Them being masked has absolutely zero upside to the public.
I don't think this is necessary. What does seeing an officer's face do that a name and badge number doesn't? What about undercover cops? What about the winter when it's cold?
I think it should only be required that they declare on what authority they're acting when making official actions, like a stop, detainment, or arrest. They should give their name and badge number upon request, in a form that works for the asker (written or verbal, asker's preference).
If we ban law enforcement from wearing masks, that opens the door to banning masks in public. I get that police should follow higher standards (I'm absolutely in favor of ending qualified immunity), but IMO the rules should merely be that police must self identify in a way the public knows they're legitimate law enforcement when using the authority of their position.
Witnesses who are too far away to see their identification can still see their face to ID them. Undercover cops are a different situation than what ICE is doing and really shouldn't be making arrests IMO. In winter they can take their mask off to interact with people.
If we ban law enforcement from wearing masks, that opens the door to banning masks in public.
It doesn't. The general public doesn't need to be identifiable at all times like cops do.
Witnesses who are too far away to see their identification can still see their face to ID them.
Sure, I just don't think that's a reasonable thing to require at all times.
Instead, the public should be free to approach to a safe distance to film, and then attempt to talk with law enforcement when safe. A police officer is required to identify themselves to the suspect due to the fourth amendment. Whether they are required to identify themselves to the public is up to local law, court precedent, and agency policy.
The general public doesn’t need to be identifiable at all times like cops do.
Neither do. Police only need to be identifiable when using their authority, such as when making an arrest or dealing with protests, and in the latter case, only agency affiliation is necessary.
Sure, I just don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to require at all times.
It is. There's literally no reason they ever need to be masked.
Neither do. Police only need to be identifiable when using their authority, such as when making an arrest or dealing with protests, and in the latter case, only agency affiliation is necessary.
Disagree. Police serve the public. If they are working they should all be identifiable so they can't step out of line. Especially during protests. Otherwise we end up with priest getting shot in the eyes with pepper rounds.
There’s literally no reason they ever need to be masked.
Cops have rights too. If an officer wants to wear a mask, I don't see any reason to deny them that. They must, however, identify themselves, the risk of someone pretending to be law enforcement is too great.
Police serve the public. If they are working they should all be identifiable
Agreed, I just don't think masks are the issue here. IMO, officers involved in protest duty should have their badge number on their uniform in a big enough font for a camera to pick up. Likewise, body cameras should be on and recording the entire time.
Every officer has a badge number that uniquely identifies then, and they are legally required to provide that information. When filing a complaint or a lawsuit, you'll provide their name and badge number. If they refuse, you provide as much information as you can (area, time of day, type of vehicle, vehicle number, other officers and badge numbers involved, etc) so they can track the officer down.
I don't know how ICE works specifically, but many police departments require their officers to carry business cards with that information and hand them out upon request.
Civilians have a right to verify that the people involved are actually officers and have a right to identify individual offices to report misconduct.
I don't care if officers wear masks, I only care that they can be uniquely identified.
Yes I have. There are only videos of people asking for badge numbers without getting a response. There are none where a badge number is given.
My point was that we need to see their faces because they will not identify themselves. Thats a big problem if we ever pull ourselves out of this; they will attempt to rejoin society like nothing happdened after illegally brutalizing american citizens. We need to know who the traitors are.
There are only videos of people asking for badge numbers without getting a response.
Are these suspects or protestors? Because the videos I've seen are protestors. Police must reveal their identity to suspects due to the fourth amendment, but not to the general public.
My point is suspects have a right to know who their accusers are. Whether they share that with others (and they should) is up to them. Having the public know their identities just opens them up to vigilante justice, having suspect know their identities keeps them accountable to the rule of law.
Does the US legal system still exist in any sense that it should in a democracy?
I ask because I don't understand how all this is possible in a constitutional state: Masked brutes who arbitrarily kidnap people on the open street without even identifying themselves, people who are interned without due process and then often simply disappear without a trace in the administrative system, total surveillance without cause, and many other massive violations that the US legal system seems to enable rather than prevent, as it should.
All of this already looks very much like a dictatorship to me, i.e., an unjust state, as none of this can be possible with a democratic constitution - at least not with one that is actually upheld by the legal system.
It does not. The legal system has essentially lost the ability to be a check on the power of the executive branch. Partly because of the capture of the judiciary and regulatory bodies by right-wing extremists and partly because of the speed at which the executive branch is acting illegally - it takes time to build cases and the jsutice system can't keep up.
At a certain point, we should just arrest the President, Vice President, and cabinet while we work through the paperwork. I don't know much about Chuck Grassley, but he can run things while we get through the trials.
The people are so gaslit they will attack you if you say otherwise.
I wonder why our allies aren’t helping at this point. Surely they understand where this goes if they don’t stop it sooner rather than later. Europe is laughing at Americans ignoring the tiger that will eat them soon.
I am German and I am appalled by the behavior of our government: Instead of standing up to Trump and his henchmen and becoming independent from the US, they are kowtowing to him, even though it is completely obvious how little Trump cares about his so called allies—and since the US is nowadays blackmailing Europe with tariffs and so on, it takes a lot of imagination to still call them allies, especially when all halfway rational people are particularly disturbed by all the inhuman Nazi shit.
Unfortunately, however, the weak position of the current German government was already absolutely foreseeable before the last federal election, because the Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, is actually more of a US lobbyist than a politician (among other things, he was chairman of the supervisory board of Black Rock Germany until 2022 and held various positions in business lobby organizations such as the Atlantik-Brücke – a conservative think tank). Nothing can be expected from these people, although I unfortunately also think that US citizens should not count on any external support anyway.
You have the most powerful military in the world and basically are your allies' (former) protective power. There is no outside help coming because (among other reasons of course) nobody is physically able to help you.
IDK what to do about the gaslighting by Fox and right wing media.. Too many people trust things without verification and it’s the reason our country is in such despair right now
That's my impression too. After everything the regime has done so far, I think it's pretty clear that it can no longer be removed by legal means - the legal system already seems to me to have been infiltrated too deeply for that.
It also seems likely to me that MAGA will no longer allow free elections, because that would carry the risk of being voted out of office, which, even in the corrupt US system, could mean severe legal consequences for many of the regime's followers and for all the misdeeds that have already been committed in less than a year. I don't think MAGA will take that chance, especially since ICE is already set up as a kind of secret police force with a budget equivalent to the military spending of a medium-sized country. I mean, what else could an agency like this possibly need such an astronomical budget for other than as a private army loyal to the regime and thus a safeguard in case of resistance from the regular army or the police?
In short: I think the outlook is very bleak, and like you, I'm not convinced that the majority of US citizens are aware of how dangerous the situation is.
It can, it just requires and act of Congress (well, two actually, impeachment and removal), an act by the VP (or maybe the cabinet? I'd need to check), or maybe an act of the Supreme Court to enable lower courts to sentence the president. None of those are currently willing to do so, but that could change after the midterms next year.
MAGA will no longer allow free elections
I guess we'll find out next year.
I think your post is quite paranoid, but we'll see I guess.
Does the US legal system still exist in any sense that it should in a democracy?
Hybrid Regime is how I describe the US. It's a weird limbo state between Democracy and Autocracy (because if this was a full autocracy, I wouldn't have access to Lemmy and most anti-trump media would've been raided and shut down). Afaik, they aren't doing exit controls yet.
The major difference between the US and PRC (where I came from), is that Americans seem more willing to resist the government compared to mainland Chinese, and these demonstrations in the US are actually being reported on, in China, its absolute silence, nobody even knows about the very little protests that do happen.
But, by the time EU starts accepting American Refugees, it'd probabably be too late and they would've imposed exit controls by then.
The judiciary "interprets" the constitution. Trump filled the judiciary with loyalist or otherwise ideologically aligned judges during this term and his previous. The supreme court ruled last year that the president has immunity, and the president has the ability to pardon people, so it seems the administration is pretty much "above the law." Even when the courts do push back, they're acting like they're powerless, and the admin's tactics seems to be just ignoring, stalling, or taking the "ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball" approach to working around the courts. Yes, the constitution has been severely weakened, and will probably continue to weaken.
I’m not going to excuse ICE and all the shit they are up to. I’m just going to point out that immigration status doesn’t require the same process to determine as the guilt or innocence of some other crime. In a murder trial, you have to prove motive, opportunity, etc beyond a reasonable doubt. With immigration status, it’s simpler: either you can document your legal right to be in the country or you can’t. When someone isn’t supposed to be in the country we don’t jail them for years to rehabilitate them and then release them into the population. We remove them. So everything about this feels and looks different from a standard criminal due process because it is different. Even without the aggressive tactics, masks, and all attendant bullshit, it would still be different.
Due process is recognized as a human‑rights protection in almost all democratic countries and generally applies regardless of citizenship; it helps prevent arbitrariness and abuse of power.
The fundamental safeguard against arbitrary state detention is habeas corpus or its functional equivalent: a person detained must be brought before a judge so the lawfulness of the detention can be reviewed and so the detainee can be informed of the charges against them.
ICE denies detainees even this, for which there can be absolutely no excuse in any reasonably civilized country.
An ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien
Cool, so I guess that means I can ignore evidence of the person/people at the door being law enforcement before enforcing my 2nd Amendment rights and state self-defense laws that also allow me to shoot to protect others.
Yup. If someone is abducting someone else and doesn't self-identify, that sounds like an open and shut self-defense case, provided you survive the encounter.
That depends on who you ask, but likely the courts would side with a citizen requesting ID. The policy seems to be that they must "when it is practical and safe to do so."
AFAIK, this issue has not been tried in court though.
In practice, pretty low! In the vast majority of cases, people are released within a few hours and not sent to one of the larger detention facilities. As much as the news sensationalizes the handful of cases where that doesn't happen, the likelihood is still quite low that I wouldn't get due process.
If I saw an ICE operation in my neighborhood, I wouldn't be too worried about going up to them and demanding their name and badge number. I'm not going to be "disappeared" or anything like that, especially as a US citizen. The vast majority of those targeted are actually illegal immigrants, and the extras arrested are often obstructing justice in one way or another. If I approach it completely legally, I don't think I'd be falsely accused of something else by those officers.
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% against what ICE is doing. I think they're being a bit too fast and loose with their information, such that they arrest or detain far too many people without actual cause, and those they do arrest with cause they mistreat. I'm not necessarily against illegal immigrants getting deported, but that should be handled with respect and restraint, at least until we get policy to get these good people on some form of temporary status. If someone currently has work here, there should be a really easy way to get that turned into a legal work visa.
Most of us are well aware of that. I live in a neighborhood with a pretty high Hispanic population. ICE was reported just a few blocks from my house on Thursday, zero trick-or-treaters on Friday. There are still a discouraging about of people saying they support Trump and what he's doing on Nextdoor. I want to believe they're bots.
Yup ice is in my neighborhood too, I'm trying to keep a look out and help anyone I can. I have a balaclava ski mask with prom night stitched into the forehead.
What is the point of comments like this? Yes, we realize this. Are you just hearing about it? Do we really have to face each new horror with admonishments that it is distracting us from the last horror?
Is it illegal to have a facemask? People should start carrying around ski masks in their vehicles in case ICE approaches them. If they claim it's illegal then why the fuck is ICE wearing them?
I don't think anything like that would help. Especially over the last several years with the huge rise of things like Snapchat filters where people can take photos of themselves in various situations with various costumes, various themes. I'm sure all of that was data mined for someone's purpose.
A recent famous case that comes to mind is when some independent researchers found an ex-RAF terrorist on the run (or call her whatever your political inclination suits) via facial recognition of photos on social media of a capobeira club. I assume the reference material were some age old photos as she was on the run for decades.
I don't know much about facial recognition but I only heard it works damn well and considering OS and phone manufacturers employing it and are confident enough to not have their users locked out or compromise security let's me assume that it works damn well.
And flu and cold season. Consider wearing gloves to keep your hands safe from diseases as well. Consider tinted glasses as well to keep the sun out of your eyes, and a hat or hoodie to protect from rain or snow.
Just basic health things, completely unrelated to cameras or anything.
Nice! And it's far less illegal of you happen to go to a national or state park or something. Good idea, I have some bear spray from when I went to Glacier National Park, I'll have to bring them around in case I meet a particularly nasty one.
So look, this is just gonna happen. It's legal to film people in public (in the US) and we all know stores, etc. are already using facial recognition.
The real problem here is the (apparent, though almost certainly assured) lack of responsible use of the data. Scanning faces means you also get time, place, and event/activity, and the citizens then have zero control of what the govt does with this, who they share it with (e.g. Palantir), etc. All prior collection of US person data required appropriate approval, limited scope of access, and timely adjudication/disposal. But ICE is (again, apparently) operating outside the law.
That's the beautiful thing, we just print more so people don't notice how much we actually spend on things. Inflation goes brr, but people blame the corpos.
We can wear masks, too...for health reasons. I predict an increase in germaphobes.
Imagine if they actually try to ban medical face masks, not for some cockamamie pseudoscience reason, but because we don't have the right to evade their facial recognition scheme?
At this point there is no voting your way back to normal anymore. As others have pointed out, the Democrats will ratchet their way further to the right in order to take office again, and the surveillance state will continue to expand under their authority (albeit somewhat less rapidly)
The lower classes must wake up to this reality and take meaningful steps to remove the ownership class from power once and for all. Holding signs and chanting in a public square during a weekend won't be enough, the rich and powerful must be in fear of losing their wealth and their lives.
My area got flooded with Flock cameras during Biden's last year. Both parties want the surveillance no question. But they also want to be in power. God I hate those cameras.
Imho surveillance state will grow even more rapidly with democrats, just not overtly. They will make a stronger big brother which the republicans will use to promote fascism.
A lot of cameras ID you by your eyes, so a medical mask wouldn't really work. If you use a mask + something like Reflectacles, you'll probably be okay.
So hypothetically, what if a bunch of protestors showed up with IC E shirts/pants/etc.... without license plates and started to protest? How would they know who was who at that point?
It doesn't even look that hard to do given how much memorabilia there is online.
121 Comments
Zephorah@discuss.online · 129 pts · 276d
They use facial recognition on us while we are not allowed to see their faces.
These guys need de-masking.
TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.ca · 75 pts · 276d
They need lifetimes in prison for treason and domestic terrorism.
Zephorah@discuss.online · 41 pts · 276d
We will never get there while they are anonymous. The path to prison starts with de-masking.
You can’t prosecute what has no identification.
CaptDust@sh.itjust.works · 26 pts · 276d
Every single one of them has a timecard they're punching with a name, collective punishment against the entire agency should be on the table.
Even those sitting back behind a desk pushing paperwork are enabling the thugs in the streets.
Zephorah@discuss.online · 6 pts · 276d
Again though, until you connect their actions on the street, to a face, prosecution will never be possible.
The need unmasking, on the street.
unconsciousvoidling@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 276d
Charge them all!! It’s a criminal organization.
far_university1990@reddthat.com · -3 pts · 276d
Deport all alien, some of them are criminal.
Imprison all of ice, some of them are criminal.
Same logic.
myplacedk@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 275d
Not all foreigners are criminals. But all members of a gang are gang members.
Isn't it illegal in US, to be a member of an organization that has an obviously criminal purpose and/or obviously criminal methods?
scarabic@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 275d
With their mask-wearing they’re practically advertising their methods. We should take the clue. Everyone still has their COVID masks, right?
Zephorah@discuss.online · 2 pts · 275d
Not the point. As long as they remain masked there will be no accountability.
survirtual@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 275d
Facial recognition can use nose bridge characteristics, eye distance, eye angle, eye color, etc.
Gait detection can also fingerprint.
Document everything and there will be accountability.
If possible, use a zoom lens and get closeups of their eyes. They are unique signatures.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 275d
Eh, I'm fine with them wearing masks. I'm not fine with them breaking the law and not being accountable. If they wear masks (or even if they don't), they need to be ready to show ID and recite their badge number.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com · 4 pts · 275d
No, they are law enforcement and should be readily identifiable the community they serve. Including their face. Also being masked makes it harder for the people they're interacting with to understand what they're saying. They lose all the non-verbal communication that comes from the face. Them being masked has absolutely zero upside to the public.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 274d
I don't think this is necessary. What does seeing an officer's face do that a name and badge number doesn't? What about undercover cops? What about the winter when it's cold?
I think it should only be required that they declare on what authority they're acting when making official actions, like a stop, detainment, or arrest. They should give their name and badge number upon request, in a form that works for the asker (written or verbal, asker's preference).
If we ban law enforcement from wearing masks, that opens the door to banning masks in public. I get that police should follow higher standards (I'm absolutely in favor of ending qualified immunity), but IMO the rules should merely be that police must self identify in a way the public knows they're legitimate law enforcement when using the authority of their position.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com · 1 pts · 274d
Witnesses who are too far away to see their identification can still see their face to ID them. Undercover cops are a different situation than what ICE is doing and really shouldn't be making arrests IMO. In winter they can take their mask off to interact with people.
It doesn't. The general public doesn't need to be identifiable at all times like cops do.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 274d
Sure, I just don't think that's a reasonable thing to require at all times.
Instead, the public should be free to approach to a safe distance to film, and then attempt to talk with law enforcement when safe. A police officer is required to identify themselves to the suspect due to the fourth amendment. Whether they are required to identify themselves to the public is up to local law, court precedent, and agency policy.
Neither do. Police only need to be identifiable when using their authority, such as when making an arrest or dealing with protests, and in the latter case, only agency affiliation is necessary.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com · 1 pts · 274d
It is. There's literally no reason they ever need to be masked.
Disagree. Police serve the public. If they are working they should all be identifiable so they can't step out of line. Especially during protests. Otherwise we end up with priest getting shot in the eyes with pepper rounds.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 274d
Cops have rights too. If an officer wants to wear a mask, I don't see any reason to deny them that. They must, however, identify themselves, the risk of someone pretending to be law enforcement is too great.
Agreed, I just don't think masks are the issue here. IMO, officers involved in protest duty should have their badge number on their uniform in a big enough font for a camera to pick up. Likewise, body cameras should be on and recording the entire time.
Zephorah@discuss.online · 3 pts · 275d
What badge number? They won’t do that. They need demasking.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 275d
Every officer has a badge number that uniquely identifies then, and they are legally required to provide that information. When filing a complaint or a lawsuit, you'll provide their name and badge number. If they refuse, you provide as much information as you can (area, time of day, type of vehicle, vehicle number, other officers and badge numbers involved, etc) so they can track the officer down.
I don't know how ICE works specifically, but many police departments require their officers to carry business cards with that information and hand them out upon request.
Civilians have a right to verify that the people involved are actually officers and have a right to identify individual offices to report misconduct.
I don't care if officers wear masks, I only care that they can be uniquely identified.
czech@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 275d
Have you ever seen an example of an ICE agent sharing a badge number on video from this year?
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · -3 pts · 275d
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Have you seen an instance where a citizen or legal immigrant calmly asked for name and badge number and was refused?
czech@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 274d
Yes I have. There are only videos of people asking for badge numbers without getting a response. There are none where a badge number is given.
My point was that we need to see their faces because they will not identify themselves. Thats a big problem if we ever pull ourselves out of this; they will attempt to rejoin society like nothing happdened after illegally brutalizing american citizens. We need to know who the traitors are.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 274d
Are these suspects or protestors? Because the videos I've seen are protestors. Police must reveal their identity to suspects due to the fourth amendment, but not to the general public.
My point is suspects have a right to know who their accusers are. Whether they share that with others (and they should) is up to them. Having the public know their identities just opens them up to vigilante justice, having suspect know their identities keeps them accountable to the rule of law.
DandomRude@lemmy.world · 85 pts · 276d
Does the US legal system still exist in any sense that it should in a democracy?
I ask because I don't understand how all this is possible in a constitutional state: Masked brutes who arbitrarily kidnap people on the open street without even identifying themselves, people who are interned without due process and then often simply disappear without a trace in the administrative system, total surveillance without cause, and many other massive violations that the US legal system seems to enable rather than prevent, as it should.
All of this already looks very much like a dictatorship to me, i.e., an unjust state, as none of this can be possible with a democratic constitution - at least not with one that is actually upheld by the legal system.
ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml · 58 pts · 276d
It does not. The legal system has essentially lost the ability to be a check on the power of the executive branch. Partly because of the capture of the judiciary and regulatory bodies by right-wing extremists and partly because of the speed at which the executive branch is acting illegally - it takes time to build cases and the jsutice system can't keep up.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 11 pts · 276d
At a certain point, we should just arrest the President, Vice President, and cabinet while we work through the paperwork. I don't know much about Chuck Grassley, but he can run things while we get through the trials.
architect@thelemmy.club · 16 pts · 276d
No.
The people are so gaslit they will attack you if you say otherwise.
I wonder why our allies aren’t helping at this point. Surely they understand where this goes if they don’t stop it sooner rather than later. Europe is laughing at Americans ignoring the tiger that will eat them soon.
DandomRude@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 276d
I am German and I am appalled by the behavior of our government: Instead of standing up to Trump and his henchmen and becoming independent from the US, they are kowtowing to him, even though it is completely obvious how little Trump cares about his so called allies—and since the US is nowadays blackmailing Europe with tariffs and so on, it takes a lot of imagination to still call them allies, especially when all halfway rational people are particularly disturbed by all the inhuman Nazi shit.
Unfortunately, however, the weak position of the current German government was already absolutely foreseeable before the last federal election, because the Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, is actually more of a US lobbyist than a politician (among other things, he was chairman of the supervisory board of Black Rock Germany until 2022 and held various positions in business lobby organizations such as the Atlantik-Brücke – a conservative think tank). Nothing can be expected from these people, although I unfortunately also think that US citizens should not count on any external support anyway.
PushButton@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 276d
Why your "allies" don't help? Well, the USA shouldn't have spit in our face to begin with.
We have enough to fix in our own country with your stupid "USA first" moves.
Endure your own shit while we endure your shit...
atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works · -3 pts · 276d
It wasn’t people from America who made Native Americans move and brought slaves over…
koetje78@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 276d
I don't think they know about Second Colonisation.
Don_alForno@feddit.org · 2 pts · 276d
You have the most powerful military in the world and basically are your allies' (former) protective power. There is no outside help coming because (among other reasons of course) nobody is physically able to help you.
billbasher@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 275d
IDK what to do about the gaslighting by Fox and right wing media.. Too many people trust things without verification and it’s the reason our country is in such despair right now
seitzer@piefed.social · 13 pts · 276d
DandomRude@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 276d
That's my impression too. After everything the regime has done so far, I think it's pretty clear that it can no longer be removed by legal means - the legal system already seems to me to have been infiltrated too deeply for that.
It also seems likely to me that MAGA will no longer allow free elections, because that would carry the risk of being voted out of office, which, even in the corrupt US system, could mean severe legal consequences for many of the regime's followers and for all the misdeeds that have already been committed in less than a year. I don't think MAGA will take that chance, especially since ICE is already set up as a kind of secret police force with a budget equivalent to the military spending of a medium-sized country. I mean, what else could an agency like this possibly need such an astronomical budget for other than as a private army loyal to the regime and thus a safeguard in case of resistance from the regular army or the police?
In short: I think the outlook is very bleak, and like you, I'm not convinced that the majority of US citizens are aware of how dangerous the situation is.
boeman@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 275d
From what I’ve seen inside the country, the majority do not see it. The people who do see it aren’t strong enough to fix it, yet…
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 275d
It can, it just requires and act of Congress (well, two actually, impeachment and removal), an act by the VP (or maybe the cabinet? I'd need to check), or maybe an act of the Supreme Court to enable lower courts to sentence the president. None of those are currently willing to do so, but that could change after the midterms next year.
I guess we'll find out next year.
I think your post is quite paranoid, but we'll see I guess.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works · 13 pts · 276d
Hybrid Regime is how I describe the US. It's a weird limbo state between Democracy and Autocracy (because if this was a full autocracy, I wouldn't have access to Lemmy and most anti-trump media would've been raided and shut down). Afaik, they aren't doing exit controls yet.
The major difference between the US and PRC (where I came from), is that Americans seem more willing to resist the government compared to mainland Chinese, and these demonstrations in the US are actually being reported on, in China, its absolute silence, nobody even knows about the very little protests that do happen.
But, by the time EU starts accepting American Refugees, it'd probabably be too late and they would've imposed exit controls by then.
Idk what will happen, only time will tell.
NotSteve_@piefed.ca · 6 pts · 276d
Its in a transitionary state but it's getting there extremely quickly
altima_neo@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 276d
It does but we're in an act first ask questions later regime.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 276d
Yup, it just takes forever to get anything through the courts. We're just now getting to the tariff nonsense, for example.
sobchak@programming.dev · 5 pts · 276d
The judiciary "interprets" the constitution. Trump filled the judiciary with loyalist or otherwise ideologically aligned judges during this term and his previous. The supreme court ruled last year that the president has immunity, and the president has the ability to pardon people, so it seems the administration is pretty much "above the law." Even when the courts do push back, they're acting like they're powerless, and the admin's tactics seems to be just ignoring, stalling, or taking the "ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball" approach to working around the courts. Yes, the constitution has been severely weakened, and will probably continue to weaken.
MourningDove@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 276d
RedditRefugee69@lemmynsfw.com · 3 pts · 276d
Nobody bothered to make federal agents wearing masks illegal, and eventually they decided to do it.
GaryGhost@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 276d
Land of the free (for white people)
scarabic@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 275d
I’m not going to excuse ICE and all the shit they are up to. I’m just going to point out that immigration status doesn’t require the same process to determine as the guilt or innocence of some other crime. In a murder trial, you have to prove motive, opportunity, etc beyond a reasonable doubt. With immigration status, it’s simpler: either you can document your legal right to be in the country or you can’t. When someone isn’t supposed to be in the country we don’t jail them for years to rehabilitate them and then release them into the population. We remove them. So everything about this feels and looks different from a standard criminal due process because it is different. Even without the aggressive tactics, masks, and all attendant bullshit, it would still be different.
DandomRude@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 275d
Due process is recognized as a human‑rights protection in almost all democratic countries and generally applies regardless of citizenship; it helps prevent arbitrariness and abuse of power.
The fundamental safeguard against arbitrary state detention is habeas corpus or its functional equivalent: a person detained must be brought before a judge so the lawfulness of the detention can be reviewed and so the detainee can be informed of the charges against them.
ICE denies detainees even this, for which there can be absolutely no excuse in any reasonably civilized country.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 55 pts · 276d
Cool, so I guess that means I can ignore evidence of the person/people at the door being law enforcement before enforcing my 2nd Amendment rights and state self-defense laws that also allow me to shoot to protect others.
K1nsey6@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 276d
We should act on protecting our rights and then ask questions later.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 275d
Yup. If someone is abducting someone else and doesn't self-identify, that sounds like an open and shut self-defense case, provided you survive the encounter.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 275d
Yeah you can, but you'll probably get killed. If you're willing to do that though, then at least make it worthwhile
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 275d
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 275d
That depends on who you ask, but likely the courts would side with a citizen requesting ID. The policy seems to be that they must "when it is practical and safe to do so."
AFAIK, this issue has not been tried in court though.
myplacedk@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 275d
What is the odds that court is where you go?
There's so many other outcomes I keep hearing about in your news, but I don't know the odds.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 275d
In practice, pretty low! In the vast majority of cases, people are released within a few hours and not sent to one of the larger detention facilities. As much as the news sensationalizes the handful of cases where that doesn't happen, the likelihood is still quite low that I wouldn't get due process.
If I saw an ICE operation in my neighborhood, I wouldn't be too worried about going up to them and demanding their name and badge number. I'm not going to be "disappeared" or anything like that, especially as a US citizen. The vast majority of those targeted are actually illegal immigrants, and the extras arrested are often obstructing justice in one way or another. If I approach it completely legally, I don't think I'd be falsely accused of something else by those officers.
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% against what ICE is doing. I think they're being a bit too fast and loose with their information, such that they arrest or detain far too many people without actual cause, and those they do arrest with cause they mistreat. I'm not necessarily against illegal immigrants getting deported, but that should be handled with respect and restraint, at least until we get policy to get these good people on some form of temporary status. If someone currently has work here, there should be a really easy way to get that turned into a legal work visa.
some_designer_dude@lemmy.world · 35 pts · 276d
Um, Americans also realize they’re ABDUCTING people without their consent too, right? And have been, for like months now?
ramenshaman@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 276d
Most of us are well aware of that. I live in a neighborhood with a pretty high Hispanic population. ICE was reported just a few blocks from my house on Thursday, zero trick-or-treaters on Friday. There are still a discouraging about of people saying they support Trump and what he's doing on Nextdoor. I want to believe they're bots.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 276d
Hopefully they just don't kno a how bad things are on the ground. Everything looks fine when your head is buried in the sand.
GaryGhost@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 276d
Yup ice is in my neighborhood too, I'm trying to keep a look out and help anyone I can. I have a balaclava ski mask with prom night stitched into the forehead.
Dragonstaff@leminal.space · 9 pts · 276d
What is the point of comments like this? Yes, we realize this. Are you just hearing about it? Do we really have to face each new horror with admonishments that it is distracting us from the last horror?
Packet@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 276d
It has been years(let us remember Obama), it is only just now that drumpf is in office they realize that people are getting literally disappeared.
Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca · 33 pts · 276d
Is it illegal to have a facemask? People should start carrying around ski masks in their vehicles in case ICE approaches them. If they claim it's illegal then why the fuck is ICE wearing them?
__siru__@discuss.tchncs.de · 36 pts · 276d
Because it is an authoritarian regime now, and not a state of law and order anymore.
SpankyDoodle@eviltoast.org · 8 pts · 275d
It's harder to racially profile a masked person or identify them in general.
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 276d
Time to start wearing face paint / face tattoos that fuck with facial recognition.
falcunculus@jlai.lu · 21 pts · 276d
In their world, resisting surveillance will be probable cause for arrest, because you must have something to hide and need to be investigated.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 275d
It doesn’t matter. At this point resistance is a responsibility. They will lie and make shit up either way so challenge them while you still can.
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 276d
But it's my religious markings from my officially recognized religion/church.
Xhead@lemmings.world · 14 pts · 276d
Like that makes a difference when they pick you up in a unmarked Ford transit and drop you off at the
concentration campice detention facilityAtropos@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 276d
Yeah but it's not THEIR religion, so you still are suspicious...
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 276d
is it Christian? no? straight to jail, terrorist.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 276d
Even worse
K1nsey6@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 276d
I don't think anything like that would help. Especially over the last several years with the huge rise of things like Snapchat filters where people can take photos of themselves in various situations with various costumes, various themes. I'm sure all of that was data mined for someone's purpose.
UltraMagnus@startrek.website · 1 pts · 276d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision_dazzle it's been done before. AI facial recognition gets a little overhyped
boomzilla@programming.dev · 0 pts · 275d
A recent famous case that comes to mind is when some independent researchers found an ex-RAF terrorist on the run (or call her whatever your political inclination suits) via facial recognition of photos on social media of a capobeira club. I assume the reference material were some age old photos as she was on the run for decades.
I don't know much about facial recognition but I only heard it works damn well and considering OS and phone manufacturers employing it and are confident enough to not have their users locked out or compromise security let's me assume that it works damn well.
Cybersteel@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 276d
Is that why cyberpunk media always has people wearing face tats.
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 276d
Sometimes it's explicitly called out for that reason ya. Can't say all the time though.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 23 pts · 276d
Ok time for everyone to dress like ice agents then. Masks for all.
SugarCatDestroyer@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 275d
FauxLiving@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 276d
Reminder to everyone that it is COVID season, so wear a mask for your health.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 13 pts · 276d
And flu and cold season. Consider wearing gloves to keep your hands safe from diseases as well. Consider tinted glasses as well to keep the sun out of your eyes, and a hat or hoodie to protect from rain or snow.
Just basic health things, completely unrelated to cameras or anything.
FauxLiving@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 276d
We do like staying healthy
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 276d
You may also consider carrying a firearm. It's hibernation season, and the bears can get a bit frisky.
FauxLiving@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 276d
Bear spray also works on wild dogs, which are increasingly becoming a problem in suburban areas.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 276d
Nice! And it's far less illegal of you happen to go to a national or state park or something. Good idea, I have some bear spray from when I went to Glacier National Park, I'll have to bring them around in case I meet a particularly nasty one.
FauxLiving@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 276d
Wild hogs ain't no joke either.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 276d
Lol. You never know when one might jump out at you from the forest or something. Don't get too close though, just spray and run away.
Prox@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 277d
So look, this is just gonna happen. It's legal to film people in public (in the US) and we all know stores, etc. are already using facial recognition.
The real problem here is the (apparent, though almost certainly assured) lack of responsible use of the data. Scanning faces means you also get time, place, and event/activity, and the citizens then have zero control of what the govt does with this, who they share it with (e.g. Palantir), etc. All prior collection of US person data required appropriate approval, limited scope of access, and timely adjudication/disposal. But ICE is (again, apparently) operating outside the law.
tourist@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 276d
Also, doesn't this shit just waste like a fuckton of taxpayer money?
architect@thelemmy.club · 8 pts · 276d
By design. They want America bankrupt.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 276d
That's the beautiful thing, we just print more so people don't notice how much we actually spend on things. Inflation goes brr, but people blame the corpos.
dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net · 19 pts · 276d
Remember kids, Juggalo makeup defeats facial recognition. Woop woop!
return2ozma@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 276d
Everybody wear drag queen makeup!
arrow74@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 276d
I also hear beards still confuse the system so that's nice
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 276d
Alright, that's it, I'm going full juggalo.
LMurch@thelemmy.club · 18 pts · 276d
As they wear masks....
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 276d
We can wear masks, too...for health reasons. I predict an increase in germaphobes.
Imagine if they actually try to ban medical face masks, not for some cockamamie pseudoscience reason, but because we don't have the right to evade their facial recognition scheme?
Tehbaz@lemmy.wtf · 15 pts · 276d
At this point there is no voting your way back to normal anymore. As others have pointed out, the Democrats will ratchet their way further to the right in order to take office again, and the surveillance state will continue to expand under their authority (albeit somewhat less rapidly)
The lower classes must wake up to this reality and take meaningful steps to remove the ownership class from power once and for all. Holding signs and chanting in a public square during a weekend won't be enough, the rich and powerful must be in fear of losing their wealth and their lives.
doingthestuff@lemy.lol · 3 pts · 276d
My area got flooded with Flock cameras during Biden's last year. Both parties want the surveillance no question. But they also want to be in power. God I hate those cameras.
reddit_sux@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 276d
Imho surveillance state will grow even more rapidly with democrats, just not overtly. They will make a stronger big brother which the republicans will use to promote fascism.
Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 276d
Serious question, with all this surveillance, would it become a thing to always wear a full mask in public.
I know, feels weird to ask that post pandemic, but here we are.
atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 276d
We aren’t post pandemic. They just want you to think we are.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 276d
We are though. COVID-19 strains have become endemic, which is the step after pandemic if the disease is not eradicated. So it's like the flu now.
architect@thelemmy.club · 5 pts · 276d
There are clothing that messes with it but the issue you will find is that with no one wearing them it puts an even bigger target on you.
Convenient they did that with the masks too.
Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 276d
Well that was my point, what if dressing up with masks and glasses (similar to ICE) becomes a trend.
It surely isn’t illegal so if enough people do it regardless of political alignment, it could break their process.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 276d
A lot of cameras ID you by your eyes, so a medical mask wouldn't really work. If you use a mask + something like Reflectacles, you'll probably be okay.
theuniqueone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 12 pts · 276d
Facial Recognition has always been racist this is nothing new in a broad sense.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 276d
There's always been facial rec. In the old days, they recognized that "He looks black, that can't be his car."
minorkeys@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 275d
If they can, they will. That's the only rule you need to know about business and politics.
SugarCatDestroyer@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 275d
mesamunefire@piefed.social · 11 pts · 275d
So hypothetically, what if a bunch of protestors showed up with IC E shirts/pants/etc.... without license plates and started to protest? How would they know who was who at that point?
It doesn't even look that hard to do given how much memorabilia there is online.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 275d
Well, Halloween just happened, so there are probably convincing costumes available on discount. Just saying...
Jhex@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 276d
are you "there yet" America?
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 276d
We're working on it, apparently.
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 276d
Just disguise yourself as your favorite Buck Rogers character.
Soktopraegaeawayok@lemmy.world · -11 pts · 275d
I consent