I, for one, am incredibly excited to see widespread inconvenience for the middle class. Hopefully this will wake some of these people the fuck up. The super rich still won't be effected enough, but maybe this will help stir up some malcontent against Orange Julius from the people unaffected by SNAP cuts.
If they stopped providing services to FL180+ non-part-121 traffic they'd see way more reduction in load than just cancelling a little 121 traffic. Idk if anyone has looked at the unfiltered flight trackers but there are a fuck ton of private/business jets up in the flight levels and they're not flying as predictable of routes (usually into smaller satellite airports near the main ones). They can't do that though because it would upset all the rich people.
Damnit, I knew I was missing some important exclusion. Hope the people in charge put more thought into what they are doing than I do my lemmy comments lmao
I was at work when i made the original comment and didn't realize there were that many fellow aviation people here. I love to see it, but I feel like I would have put more thought into my comment if I'd known.
i got interested after the oceangate disaster, because many of the aviation subs were chiming in, because the "sub" was made from defective airplane parts.
Guessing middle class is... college students with rich AF parents that pay to fly them home... and people really well set, but not quite in the private jet level.
Honestly, I wonder how long til we have to close down an airport because staff just stops showing up entirely. I feel like absenteeism has to have gone exponential.
With the expense of flights, I also do think a lot about whether or not this disproportionately affects demographics who were more likely to have voted for Trump.
Wealthy people will be less affected. They will get a different flight and just charge it. Poorer people will need to wait for a refund or insurance to pay to get an alternative.
I would also expect that the workers in states with less social benefits are more likely to have the staff not show up as they have to earn money elsewhere.
Upvoted you, but they frequently fly out of smaller/private airports that don't have direct ATC control anyway, so it's unlikely that's a significant contributor to a solution. Though I definitely agree it should be done at whatever scale it can be to improve general conditions.
Most of the airports that private jets fly in and out of do have a tower. Also, there’s a lot of ground holds recently due to en route controller shortages which limits how much traffic can be in the air, which of course affects private jets as well.
I'd imagine a lot of private jets do fly IFR though which does involve ATC. So even if they fly out of a non towered airport, they probably file their IFR plan with a towered airport and start talking to them once in the air.
It was one of the first "reality TV" shows and naturally, it was completely fabricated.
In America, anyway, a lot of people seem to think that "reality TV" began with Survivor for whatever reason. I don't really understand this collective amnesia, since Cops (1989) and The Real World (1992) are both things that predated Survivor (2000), were on the air when Survivor started, and are still going...
Apparently, the first reality TV show credit goes to Candid Camera, which was on TV in 1948, and was predated by a show on radio in 1947. I have some vague memory of Candid Camera being on in the 70s or 80s, but I had no idea it went that far back.
Take away pay from house & senate members while the government is shut down, they don't deserve the special treatment. Then we'll see how fast this all gets resolved.
People keep suggesting this without thinking it through
Many congress members are quite wealthy. They could easily go without their salary at all, for their entire tenure. These people tend to make money off stock trading (at suspiciously high rates, but that's a different discussion), in addition to other investments and "consulting" generating revenue for them
There are, however, at least a few congress members that are not independently wealthy. Those members are actually working class and rely on their salary to live. Those people are the ones that will be squeezed without a paycheck
What do you think the end result of that will be?
The wealthy members of congress will be able to use shutdowns as a bludgeon to force the working class members to vote in line with them. The wealthy can hold out indefinitely. The working class can only hold out until rent is past-due
Long term, I'd expect to see two other knock-on effects. Working class members of congress will be heavily incentivized to start making very good stock picks to have backup income, or more outright corruption. The second effect would be a chilling effect on working class candidates even running for congress
Does that sound like a positive outcome? Are those the incentives you want in congress?
We could have both, reform for leadership performing trades AND we can stop paying them when the government shuts down. But this story was about the FAA workers who don't get paid with stocks.
We could have both, reform for leadership performing trades AND we can stop paying them when the government shuts down
Okay, so we give a lot of power to the wealthy members of congress. It doesn't change the fundamental calculus that your suggestion would shift power from working class members of congress to the wealthy members. Even without insider trading, many of them are multi-millionaires and will not care at all that they don't receive their salary for a while
But this story was about the FAA workers who don’t get paid with stocks
That one has an easy solution that doesn't involve giving more power to the wealthy: Continue paying ATC during the shutdown
A much better generalized solution would instead to be forced budget continuation. Can't pass a bill? The old budget continues until you do
If you're a right wing libertarian or neoliberal who believes that governments are always corrupt, inefficient and incompetent, the best way to prove yourself right is to ensure that the government is always corrupt, inefficient and incompetent.
I thought the same thing. The only wrench would be if they live in a big city with accessible public transit and don’t have a license or know how to drive.
84 Comments
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 137 pts · 290d
I, for one, am incredibly excited to see widespread inconvenience for the middle class. Hopefully this will wake some of these people the fuck up. The super rich still won't be effected enough, but maybe this will help stir up some malcontent against Orange Julius from the people unaffected by SNAP cuts.
aceshigh@lemmy.world · 38 pts · 290d
Just in time for the holiday season too.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world · 37 pts · 290d
Private planes are still reliant on ATC, especially at out of the way, low traffic airports that will be the first to see cuts
frongt@lemmy.zip · 9 pts · 289d
If they're that low traffic, won't they just go uncontrolled?
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 290d
You're so right, I always forget about GA.
potatopotato@sh.itjust.works · 34 pts · 290d
If they stopped providing services to FL180+ non-part-121 traffic they'd see way more reduction in load than just cancelling a little 121 traffic. Idk if anyone has looked at the unfiltered flight trackers but there are a fuck ton of private/business jets up in the flight levels and they're not flying as predictable of routes (usually into smaller satellite airports near the main ones). They can't do that though because it would upset all the rich people.
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 36 pts · 290d
Maybe we should just reject all IFR flight plans with less than 20 passengers other than life flights. Make the rich fly low and slow.
elvith@feddit.org · 9 pts · 289d
So also cancel ALL cargo flights. Got it.
potatopotato@sh.itjust.works · 15 pts · 289d
Don't threaten me with a good time
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 289d
Damnit, I knew I was missing some important exclusion. Hope the people in charge put more thought into what they are doing than I do my lemmy comments lmao
potatopotato@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 289d
Bonus points for VRF into IMC accidents thinning the billionaires out a bit. We can then call Gulfstreams "T tailed billionaire killers"
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 289d
VRF into IMC should just be shortened to "Kobe landing"
potatopotato@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 288d
I was going to make that joke but didn't have the guts to, bravo
hddsx@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 290d
I thought I was on /r/flying for a sec. Nice to see aviation people in Lemmy
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 290d
I was at work when i made the original comment and didn't realize there were that many fellow aviation people here. I love to see it, but I feel like I would have put more thought into my comment if I'd known.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 289d
i got interested after the oceangate disaster, because many of the aviation subs were chiming in, because the "sub" was made from defective airplane parts.
potatopotato@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 289d
Can I be the honorary /u/PM_ME_YOUR_EMPENNAGE? I promise I won't let this go to my head
frongt@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 289d
You just need to find an instance that doesn't have that name registered (it's probably all of them)
glitches_brew@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 290d
The super rich won't be directly affected but their businesses will.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 289d
they wont be safe in thier bunkers, or compounds either, because you have to pay for staff, pluss things to remove waste and maitanence
Zachariah@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 290d
yet
TragicNotCute@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 290d
What does the American middle class “waking up” look like?
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 290d
After actually thinking about it, a general strike would be pretty lit.
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 289d
If i miss a week of work I am fucked.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 289d
Join a union, they should have a strike fund to at least help you get by.
Else, take PTO if you can, and just sandbag at work if you can't.
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 289d
I am in the weed industry. We don't have a union yet.
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 289d
Yeah, same.
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 290d
You think Americans will think? We have wildly different predictions for how that scenario plays out.
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 289d
🤷 yeah, you're probably right. Gotta have hope to make it through the day at this point.
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 289d
Without context, I honestly thought this reply was in reference to my comment abput red lobster having unlimited popcorn shrimp.
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 289d
It can be about unlimited popcorn shrimp. Live your best life.
fascicle@leminal.space · 2 pts · 290d
They will all band together and help musk make all flight controller run by private companies
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -1 pts · 290d
Hopefully doing more than the nothing that they're doing now.
TragicNotCute@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 290d
Are you trying to be funny or do you genuinely not know?
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -2 pts · 290d
Little bit of both probably. Currently dealing with something more important and only half paying attention to Lemmy while I wait.
TragicNotCute@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 290d
Sounds like you need to wake up, not the middle class.
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 289d
Okie dokie
tyranical_typhon@lemmings.world · 6 pts · 289d
Not majorly, but less commerce translates to less money for them because they profit off of all of our legal transactions.
pinheadednightmare@lemmy.world · 50 pts · 290d
Just in time for the holidays, I’m here for it. Time for the middle class to wake the fuck up.
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub · 22 pts · 290d
You guys have a middle class?
TheFogan@programming.dev · 11 pts · 290d
Guessing middle class is... college students with rich AF parents that pay to fly them home... and people really well set, but not quite in the private jet level.
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 49 pts · 290d
BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 21 pts · 290d
Honestly, I wonder how long til we have to close down an airport because staff just stops showing up entirely. I feel like absenteeism has to have gone exponential.
With the expense of flights, I also do think a lot about whether or not this disproportionately affects demographics who were more likely to have voted for Trump.
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 290d
Wait......you think the vast majority of trump voters are wealthy?
Uhhhhhh........I don't even know how to respond to that without feeling like I'm talking down to you.
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 9 pts · 290d
hitmyspot@aussie.zone · 3 pts · 289d
Wealthy people will be less affected. They will get a different flight and just charge it. Poorer people will need to wait for a refund or insurance to pay to get an alternative.
I would also expect that the workers in states with less social benefits are more likely to have the staff not show up as they have to earn money elsewhere.
RedMari@reddthat.com · 4 pts · 290d
You don't think they will find a way to blame Biden?
800XL@lemmy.world · 41 pts · 289d
Cut only private jets.
CatAssTrophy@safest.space · 16 pts · 289d
Upvoted you, but they frequently fly out of smaller/private airports that don't have direct ATC control anyway, so it's unlikely that's a significant contributor to a solution. Though I definitely agree it should be done at whatever scale it can be to improve general conditions.
SpermHowitzer@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 289d
Most of the airports that private jets fly in and out of do have a tower. Also, there’s a lot of ground holds recently due to en route controller shortages which limits how much traffic can be in the air, which of course affects private jets as well.
rarbg@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 289d
Yeah but lots of those towered smaller airports are staffed by contractor companies where the controllers are still getting paid normally rn
flynnguy@programming.dev · 2 pts · 288d
I'd imagine a lot of private jets do fly IFR though which does involve ATC. So even if they fly out of a non towered airport, they probably file their IFR plan with a towered airport and start talking to them once in the air.
fritobugger2017@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 289d
Thanks for the laugh!
CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world · 36 pts · 290d
I'm still trying to process the fact that a moron known for being on "The Real World" is Transportation Secretary. And it's been months.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 12 pts · 289d
remember he also redirected his wifes flight away from the affected areas during the doge cuts of the atc.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 6 pts · 289d
Everything is just so. Fucking. Stupid.
arin@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 289d
Idk what the real world means in this context.
Ageroth@reddthat.com · 7 pts · 289d
It was a reality TV show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_World
mrnarwall@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 289d
The Real World is an ongoing reality show on MTV. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy was in the 1997 season that took place in Boston Massachusetts.
tyranical_typhon@lemmings.world · 5 pts · 289d
I'm not sure either, but I assume it's a TV show.
CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 289d
It was one of the first "reality TV" shows and naturally, it was completely fabricated.
In America, anyway, a lot of people seem to think that "reality TV" began with Survivor for whatever reason. I don't really understand this collective amnesia, since Cops (1989) and The Real World (1992) are both things that predated Survivor (2000), were on the air when Survivor started, and are still going...
Apparently, the first reality TV show credit goes to Candid Camera, which was on TV in 1948, and was predated by a show on radio in 1947. I have some vague memory of Candid Camera being on in the 70s or 80s, but I had no idea it went that far back.
frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 34 pts · 290d
The shutdown accelerated this, but it's far from the root cause. Even when it lifts, it's still on a bad trajectory.
Can't reduce training standards without causing lots of other problems.
Automation in older ways is possible but complicated. More modern AI would be a disaster. Though they might try.
There isn't really an answer. Air travel can't continue as it was, and there aren't enough plans for trains to come close to making up for it.
regedit@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 289d
Pilot, in heated argument with copilot.
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org · 24 pts · 289d
Richest country on the fucking planet yet we
can'twon't pay ATC 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦CatAssTrophy@safest.space · 12 pts · 289d
If we can't even hold the nation hostage, what's the point of authoritarian control?!
CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 289d
Paying people for work is just that "waste, fraud, and abuse" the Confederates kept babbling about.
HotsauceHurricane@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 290d
I'm so glad I'm flying to one of the nations busiest airports next week.
NRay7882@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 289d
Take away pay from house & senate members while the government is shut down, they don't deserve the special treatment. Then we'll see how fast this all gets resolved.
Taldan@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 289d
People keep suggesting this without thinking it through
Many congress members are quite wealthy. They could easily go without their salary at all, for their entire tenure. These people tend to make money off stock trading (at suspiciously high rates, but that's a different discussion), in addition to other investments and "consulting" generating revenue for them
There are, however, at least a few congress members that are not independently wealthy. Those members are actually working class and rely on their salary to live. Those people are the ones that will be squeezed without a paycheck
What do you think the end result of that will be?
The wealthy members of congress will be able to use shutdowns as a bludgeon to force the working class members to vote in line with them. The wealthy can hold out indefinitely. The working class can only hold out until rent is past-due
Long term, I'd expect to see two other knock-on effects. Working class members of congress will be heavily incentivized to start making very good stock picks to have backup income, or more outright corruption. The second effect would be a chilling effect on working class candidates even running for congress
Does that sound like a positive outcome? Are those the incentives you want in congress?
NRay7882@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 289d
We could have both, reform for leadership performing trades AND we can stop paying them when the government shuts down. But this story was about the FAA workers who don't get paid with stocks.
Taldan@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 288d
Okay, so we give a lot of power to the wealthy members of congress. It doesn't change the fundamental calculus that your suggestion would shift power from working class members of congress to the wealthy members. Even without insider trading, many of them are multi-millionaires and will not care at all that they don't receive their salary for a while
That one has an easy solution that doesn't involve giving more power to the wealthy: Continue paying ATC during the shutdown
A much better generalized solution would instead to be forced budget continuation. Can't pass a bill? The old budget continues until you do
Fedizen@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 289d
Train the house and senate to do air traffuc control work.
cannibalkitteh@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 10 pts · 289d
"Plane crashes up 3000%"
Breezy@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 289d
But some how they are all Boeing planes.
TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 290d
If you're a right wing libertarian or neoliberal who believes that governments are always corrupt, inefficient and incompetent, the best way to prove yourself right is to ensure that the government is always corrupt, inefficient and incompetent.
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 290d
tyranical_typhon@lemmings.world · 13 pts · 289d
This can't be good for the economy.
JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 290d
Thanks trump! Thanks Rs!
7U5K3N@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 10 pts · 290d
Mother fucker. My wife my toddler and I are supposed to fly out on the 15th.
I really hope I don't get stuck in like.... Delaware.... With a 2 year old and no way home.
Oh well small price to pay for insurance coverage for folks that probably voted against their best interests.
I guess.
AlbinoPython@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 290d
7U5K3N@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 290d
Thank you for the gif.
Because of that movie, Delaware is my go to for random ass place.
tal@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 290d
I mean, worst case, it's probably possible to rent a car at the airport. Might need longer to get home, but shouldn't be impossible to get there.
WindyRebel@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 289d
I thought the same thing. The only wrench would be if they live in a big city with accessible public transit and don’t have a license or know how to drive.
metallic_substance@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 289d
My condolences. That fucking blows. I really hope it works okay for you and your family
7U5K3N@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 289d
Thanks a bunch!! I appreciate it!!
finitebanjo@piefed.world · -2 pts · 290d
metallic_substance@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 289d
What the fuck is wrong with you?
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 0 pts · 289d
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 290d
Took them long enough, it seems. Apparently lack of traffic controllers wasn't preventing flights last week.