Alan Moore talks about how he created Rorschach to be the most disgusting character imaginable. A total loser with no friends and a twisted view of the world.
He says he's tired of all the fan boys who come up to him and tell him how Rorschach is them!
I can't remember the exact name, but there's a common process with ongoing characters where the writers find themselves making their toughest characters nicer over time.
Both Wolverine and Jack Reacher were presented as unapproachable loners at first, and both mellowed considerably over time.
Rorschach was 'lucky' because he got to die a noble death before being forced to become civilized.
Well the willing suspension of disbelief is adjusted based on the story being told. If you say there's a made-up kingdom where animals talk in the exposition, that's fine. But if you say it takes place in a world that's basically our own, then one person can randomly shoot lasers from their eyes, you should give some explanation. It doesn't even have to be a particularly good one, but even in-universe people would be asking about that.
Also, I don't usually see these questions asked in an overly critical sense, but rather with a sense of humor or with an eye towards world building. It's about having fun
I always took anti hero to mean bad protagonist. Like in any normal story they're almost definitely the villain, but the story follows them as the main character so we see the world through their eyes.
With this in mind i guess joker became anti hero when he got his own movie
That's like saying Atticus Finch isn't a hero in To Kill A Mockingbird because you, personally, are racist and don't think fighting for the rights of black people is a noble persuit. A character is a hero in a story if they are good according to the morals implicit in the story's world.
Antiheros are supposed to be relatable to some extent. You're supposed to be on their side.
When they talk about how the world is broken and everyone just seems to be accepting it, theyre spot on. When they talk about how we've allowed the worst traits of humanity to flourish and dominate they're saying what we're all thinking. These are the quotes that get shared on boomermemes on Facebook. What doesnt get shared so much is their plan to fix it which involves taking a bus full of toddlers hostage with a bomb.
I think you nailed it. Antiheroes are a power fantasy. If they weren’t relatable, the movie would be boring. I think they also make people feel strong and resilient in comparison: the joker (or whatever) faces some of the same humiliations the viewer faces, but the joker snaps and goes on a rampage while the viewer carries on. The rampage part is the “anti” in antihero. The viewer gets to feel like the hero.
36 Comments
DagwoodIII@piefed.social · 65 pts · 255d
Alan Moore talks about how he created Rorschach to be the most disgusting character imaginable. A total loser with no friends and a twisted view of the world.
He says he's tired of all the fan boys who come up to him and tell him how Rorschach is them!
Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works · 42 pts · 255d
To be fair, Rorschach has a few traits worth emulating. He does have a rock solid sense of right and wrong and uhhhh... Yeah no, that's about it.
DagwoodIII@piefed.social · 20 pts · 255d
I can't remember the exact name, but there's a common process with ongoing characters where the writers find themselves making their toughest characters nicer over time.
Both Wolverine and Jack Reacher were presented as unapproachable loners at first, and both mellowed considerably over time.
Rorschach was 'lucky' because he got to die a noble death before being forced to become civilized.
Siethron@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 255d
He's also capable of backing his words up with actions. Although in the prison scene I guess the actions came first.
Pretty sure the "you're locked in here with me" vibe. is what all the fanboys envision themselves as, but would never actually be to emulate.
TheBat@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 255d
Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 255d
I didn't say I agreed with his sense of right or wrong. But it's very solid.
TheBat@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 255d
Simulation6@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 254d
Rorschach died because he refused to go along with a scheme to hide the truth from people. That seems universally noble to me.
_lilith@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 255d
and a love of beans
GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 255d
Acutely relatable trait
TheBat@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 255d
KombatWombat@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 255d
Well the willing suspension of disbelief is adjusted based on the story being told. If you say there's a made-up kingdom where animals talk in the exposition, that's fine. But if you say it takes place in a world that's basically our own, then one person can randomly shoot lasers from their eyes, you should give some explanation. It doesn't even have to be a particularly good one, but even in-universe people would be asking about that.
blarghly@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 254d
Also, I don't usually see these questions asked in an overly critical sense, but rather with a sense of humor or with an eye towards world building. It's about having fun
underscores@lemmy.zip · 34 pts · 255d
I know it's a meme but it's more so incels and less the entire male population
Soulg@ani.social · 16 pts · 255d
There's way way way better and more interesting, more nuanced antiheros out there than the fucking joker too
CIA_chatbot@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 255d
And well the joker isn’t an “anti-hero” he’s a straight up psychopath
Soulg@ani.social · 2 pts · 254d
Also that I was just going with the language in the meme
CIA_chatbot@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 254d
Oh yea I was more adding to your comment not commenting on it, my bad
RVGamer06@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 255d
I'm more of an Avast male myself
ryathal@sh.itjust.works · 16 pts · 255d
Since when did joker become an anti hero? He's the chaotic evil to Batman's chaotic good.
yermaw@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 255d
I always took anti hero to mean bad protagonist. Like in any normal story they're almost definitely the villain, but the story follows them as the main character so we see the world through their eyes.
With this in mind i guess joker became anti hero when he got his own movie
ryathal@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 254d
That seems way to general. I wouldn't label Tony Montana or Walter White anti heros.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 255d
I thought Batman was just lawful. He serves the interests of the rich and works with the cops.
blarghly@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 254d
That's like saying Atticus Finch isn't a hero in To Kill A Mockingbird because you, personally, are racist and don't think fighting for the rights of black people is a noble persuit. A character is a hero in a story if they are good according to the morals implicit in the story's world.
ryathal@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 255d
Beating the absolute shit out of people isn't lawful.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 255d
Sure it is! He's deputized by the GCPD. And it's part of his personal code.
salacious_coaster@infosec.pub · 15 pts · 256d
Yeah, I dunno about that. "Anti-hero" is a pretty big trope, not at all limited to mentally ill characters.
rainwall@piefed.social · 3 pts · 255d
Its a big list, but most have at least severe, untreated PTSD.
Punisher comes to mind, Venom as well. Wolverine fits here, along with his memory loss issues.
TheFunkyMonk@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 256d
Dude’s rock did what?
yermaw@sh.itjust.works · 11 pts · 255d
Antiheros are supposed to be relatable to some extent. You're supposed to be on their side.
When they talk about how the world is broken and everyone just seems to be accepting it, theyre spot on. When they talk about how we've allowed the worst traits of humanity to flourish and dominate they're saying what we're all thinking. These are the quotes that get shared on boomermemes on Facebook. What doesnt get shared so much is their plan to fix it which involves taking a bus full of toddlers hostage with a bomb.
lemmy_outta_here@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 254d
I think you nailed it. Antiheroes are a power fantasy. If they weren’t relatable, the movie would be boring. I think they also make people feel strong and resilient in comparison: the joker (or whatever) faces some of the same humiliations the viewer faces, but the joker snaps and goes on a rampage while the viewer carries on. The rampage part is the “anti” in antihero. The viewer gets to feel like the hero.
Valmond@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 256d
The "joker" trope from batman is very USA centered too, we don't have that very much in Europe, or so I feel.
Edit I not U
frizzo@piefed.social · 15 pts · 256d
Squats and Laughs in Eastern European.
sundray@lemmus.org · 1 pts · 255d
It's true, pierrots rarely become super villains.
TrickDacy@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 255d
Yeah, no.
tias@discuss.tchncs.de · 3 pts · 255d
Leave me out of this
HollowNaught@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 253d
TwoBeeSan@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 255d
Stavros_laugh.mp3
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 255d
You just offended my entire gender.
But yes, that's true and it's bad that about half are fucking idiots.