I'd watch a video of someone with architectural experience analyzing these old dungeons and ranting about how impossible to construct and functionally useless they are for anything other than dungeon delving.
For starters, just ask your DM three questions (assuming enemies are sentient and civilized beings, not just "wildlife") and watch him sweat nervously:
In a lot of modern guides on dungeon design, they stress thinking this stuff out. Yeah you should definitely have some idea why the inhabitants are here and not elsewhere, where their supplies come from, and how they interact with whatever else calls this place home.
They should have a place to sleep, eat, maybe recreation even. While the PCs poke around, the dungeon denizens shouldn't just be waiting around in preset rooms, fully ready to fight like MMO mobs. They could be on patrol, raiding their neighbors, sleeping, arguing, partying, whatever.
There's even fun things you can do with this like inter-faction conflicts between floors or other regions. Do the Orcs fear the dragon at the bottom of the dungeon?
Do the bandits have an uneasy non-aggression pact with a lich? Or are they constantly embattled with seemingly limitless undead because they're struggling for a legendary artifact?
Somebody's gotta reset all those traps, too.
Players should definitely feel like trespassers in a living place. Few people enjoy that ancient style of dungeon delving anymore, where you slay a band of kobolds, answer a sphinx's riddle, then bust in on a vampire who's as confused about why they're there as you are!
Where are the toilets?
Maybe the hallway but the local gelatinous cube roombas it up. (Eeeeeww) ... Or a room has holes dug dropping into an underground river. Or just a really deep pit, or a convenient portal to the Abyss LOL.
I really like this approach. I'd say few dungeons are really places of inner conflict though, since that usually either resolves itself quickly by one side winning or fleeing, because few people like to have a potential rival as a direct neighbor. But of course, there are exceptions and even dungeons belonging to a single faction should feel like the monsters are actually alive.
Generally yes, the DM doesn't need to answer all things (heoght be revealing some secrets after all, where you can ambush, poison food, whatever). BUT he better is prepared after the questions
IIRC this dungeon was created specifically for dungeon delving, and the mad mage who created it is, as the name implies, batshit crazy, so this one makes sense.
I know a guy who did this. Use the entire worldgen for the overland map, locations, and factions then would handcraft some dungeons in fortress mode. Sounded like a lot of work but worth it.
In the back of the 2014 DMG is a set of tables for generating random dungeons. I thought it would be fun to see how that goes. After spending maybe 6 hours on it across a few days, the abomination I created ended up making DungeonScrawl crash in my browser and be unable to work on it further, but if it hadn't it probably would've ended up like roughly 1/4 of this.
D20srd.org has an automatic random dungeon creator. It's rarely sensible but even a rogue needs exceptional luck and several levels to make the detect and disarm checks that it comes up with. The monsters it populates the dungeon with are appropriate to the level you set
The "Mad Mage", Halaster Blackcloak, is a specific character from the Forgotten Realms setting. "Undermountain" is a special place that he has surprising control over as it has been slowly created by him over the century/centuries, and its layout both isn't permanent and isn't there to serve any given group of people. Monsters and sentients sometimes move in, at their own risk.
The map as shown is meant to represent its existence at whatever point in time the adventuring party happens to arrive at. And Halaster keeps a remote eye on anyone of interest who turns up. GMs are encouraged to modify the presented material in whatever way suits their interests.
Over half of that map looks absolutely miserable to do combat in, for both the GM and the players.
I once had an encounter happen inside a 3x3 grid room as a GM. It was awful. There was no room for anybody to be creative in. It was just a boring slogfest for over an hour
I've always wanted to play a MEGA-DUNGEON with a DM who wants to run one. I love to making a 2-3 level dungeon when I DM but I don't think I can do a MEGA ones.
40 Comments
KoboldCoterie@pawb.social · 61 pts · 248d
I'd watch a video of someone with architectural experience analyzing these old dungeons and ranting about how impossible to construct and functionally useless they are for anything other than dungeon delving.
elvith@feddit.org · 43 pts · 248d
For starters, just ask your DM three questions (assuming enemies are sentient and civilized beings, not just "wildlife") and watch him sweat nervously:
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today · 39 pts · 248d
In a lot of modern guides on dungeon design, they stress thinking this stuff out. Yeah you should definitely have some idea why the inhabitants are here and not elsewhere, where their supplies come from, and how they interact with whatever else calls this place home.
They should have a place to sleep, eat, maybe recreation even. While the PCs poke around, the dungeon denizens shouldn't just be waiting around in preset rooms, fully ready to fight like MMO mobs. They could be on patrol, raiding their neighbors, sleeping, arguing, partying, whatever.
There's even fun things you can do with this like inter-faction conflicts between floors or other regions. Do the Orcs fear the dragon at the bottom of the dungeon?
Do the bandits have an uneasy non-aggression pact with a lich? Or are they constantly embattled with seemingly limitless undead because they're struggling for a legendary artifact?
Somebody's gotta reset all those traps, too.
Players should definitely feel like trespassers in a living place. Few people enjoy that ancient style of dungeon delving anymore, where you slay a band of kobolds, answer a sphinx's riddle, then bust in on a vampire who's as confused about why they're there as you are!
Maybe the hallway but the local gelatinous cube roombas it up. (Eeeeeww) ... Or a room has holes dug dropping into an underground river. Or just a really deep pit, or a convenient portal to the Abyss LOL.
You can have fun with this stuff.
Iron_Lynx@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 248d
Or to the Underdark. The Drow must hate the dungeon occupants...
jherazob@beehaw.org · 10 pts · 248d
Now i have an itch to go reread Dungeon Meshi
ulterno@programming.dev · 5 pts · 248d
I watched the Anime and I feel like it expands on the above concept very well.
Lots of fun.
jounniy@ttrpg.network · 3 pts · 235d
I really like this approach. I'd say few dungeons are really places of inner conflict though, since that usually either resolves itself quickly by one side winning or fleeing, because few people like to have a potential rival as a direct neighbor. But of course, there are exceptions and even dungeons belonging to a single faction should feel like the monsters are actually alive.
SteelSky@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 248d
My DM would burst out laughing at those questions and respond with:
YOU'RE the adventurers, aren't ya? So:
elvith@feddit.org · 6 pts · 247d
Generally yes, the DM doesn't need to answer all things (heoght be revealing some secrets after all, where you can ambush, poison food, whatever). BUT he better is prepared after the questions
cassandrafatigue@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 12 pts · 248d
I ran a bitd game with a civil engineer playing a leech. 'Where does the poop go' got a lot of people killed.
scratchee@feddit.uk · 6 pts · 248d
DM sweats profusely, starts searching for books on underground ecosystems.
squaresinger@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 248d
Make the enemies coprophages and all the problems sort themselves out.
Xyre@lemmus.org · 10 pts · 248d
Someone should make a 100% science-based dungeons game.
roflo1@ttrpg.network · 7 pts · 248d
It’s short, but it’s a start:
https://youtu.be/pKJAWDVx5_Q
squaresinger@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 248d
Lindybeige! Haven't seen that guy in ages! And he's still active!
Aielman15@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 247d
IIRC this dungeon was created specifically for dungeon delving, and the mad mage who created it is, as the name implies, batshit crazy, so this one makes sense.
chunkystyles@sopuli.xyz · 30 pts · 248d
And now I want to play Dwarf Fortress again.
8263ksbr@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 248d
: ) now i want to replicate that dungeon in dwarf fortress
mech@feddit.org · 25 pts · 248d
Plot twist: It's just a printout of the DM's last Dwarf Fortress save.
Below level 23 is where the FUN starts.
Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 248d
The mandatory water-themed floor is only there because the DM messed up making a waterfall. Again.
RickyRigatoni@retrolemmy.com · 4 pts · 247d
I know a guy who did this. Use the entire worldgen for the overland map, locations, and factions then would handcraft some dungeons in fortress mode. Sounded like a lot of work but worth it.
BanMe@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 247d
How many years does it take to play through a map?
RickyRigatoni@retrolemmy.com · 3 pts · 247d
Look up how many years it'll take for iron stars to form and multiply that by six.
edgemaster72@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 248d
In the back of the 2014 DMG is a set of tables for generating random dungeons. I thought it would be fun to see how that goes. After spending maybe 6 hours on it across a few days, the abomination I created ended up making DungeonScrawl crash in my browser and be unable to work on it further, but if it hadn't it probably would've ended up like roughly 1/4 of this.
1/10 do not recommend
psud@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 246d
D20srd.org has an automatic random dungeon creator. It's rarely sensible but even a rogue needs exceptional luck and several levels to make the detect and disarm checks that it comes up with. The monsters it populates the dungeon with are appropriate to the level you set
It creates a player's map and a GM version
KingGimpicus@sh.itjust.works · 15 pts · 247d
Map doesn't make any sense. There is no structure or organization beyond "make a huge block of confusing, pointless rooms".
Maps are a part of telling a story. The story this DM is telling consists entirely of incoherent yelling and swearing.
MajorasTerribleFate@lemmy.zip · 13 pts · 247d
The "Mad Mage", Halaster Blackcloak, is a specific character from the Forgotten Realms setting. "Undermountain" is a special place that he has surprising control over as it has been slowly created by him over the century/centuries, and its layout both isn't permanent and isn't there to serve any given group of people. Monsters and sentients sometimes move in, at their own risk.
The map as shown is meant to represent its existence at whatever point in time the adventuring party happens to arrive at. And Halaster keeps a remote eye on anyone of interest who turns up. GMs are encouraged to modify the presented material in whatever way suits their interests.
Deathray5@lemmynsfw.com · 10 pts · 247d
It tells a story of a "Mad Mage" very well
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 247d
That Mad Mage just isn't making sense!
It's like a purposeful troll on a group with a persistent completionist mentality.
When (if) they catch on the DM can help expedite their routing.
finitebanjo@piefed.world · 8 pts · 248d
lime@feddit.nu · 8 pts · 248d
this is why i do theatre of the mind
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 247d
Over half of that map looks absolutely miserable to do combat in, for both the GM and the players.
I once had an encounter happen inside a 3x3 grid room as a GM. It was awful. There was no room for anybody to be creative in. It was just a boring slogfest for over an hour
jounniy@ttrpg.network · 1 pts · 235d
How did it come to that?
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 234d
Abomination Vaults, floor 3.
jounniy@ttrpg.network · 1 pts · 221d
I'm afraid I never played the module. What’s down there?
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 248d
There's a labyrinth in the labyrinth.
azrendelmare@ttrpg.network · 5 pts · 248d
Man, you should see my mom's megadungeon; this is fucking tiny.
dumples@midwest.social · 3 pts · 248d
I've always wanted to play a MEGA-DUNGEON with a DM who wants to run one. I love to making a 2-3 level dungeon when I DM but I don't think I can do a MEGA ones.
Harvey656@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 248d
I feel called out.
Grabthar@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 247d
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 247d
Is this the Godherja under mountain map?
CPMSP@midwest.social · 1 pts · 248d
Maximum effort!