"Gamers don't want it": Palworld lead says Pocketpair doesn't touch AI because players hate it and artists "like doing stuff themselves"
https://www.gamesradar.com/games/survival/gamers-dont-want-it-palworld-lead-says-pocketpair-doesnt-touch-ai-because-players-hate-it-and-artists-like-doing-stuff-themselves/
863 points · 93 comments · view on lemmy.world
93 Comments
yetAnotherUser@lemmy.ca · 246 pts · 65d
That's a good business model. "If our customers don't like it, our employees don't like it, and we can do business without it, why should we use it?"
laz@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 12 pts · 65d
Beacuse minimize the effing costs or you fired
marxismtomorrow@lemmy.today · 68 pts · 65d
I'm not sure AI is cheaper now that AI companies are no longer artificially suppressing prices. Especially compared to the PR companies you need to pay if you use AI.
laz@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -12 pts · 65d
marxismtomorrow@lemmy.today · 27 pts · 65d
Except they aren't consistent or reliable, and can't run 24x7 since nearly all agents need to be reset after a set number of tokens.
laz@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -22 pts · 65d
a_non_monotonic_function@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 64d
Lol, how do you losers tokenmaxxing with that sort of attitude?
yyprum@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 64d
And the stakeholders? Is no one going to think of the stakeholders?!
rem26_art@fedia.io · 103 pts · 65d
I remember there was a rumor going around Twitter when Palworld first launched that Pocketpair had used AI for some of their character designs, and there was some backlash, but it turned out to be false. Feeling some of that heat, even if it was unwarranted, probably also helped set their opinions on using AI for that kind of stuff.
If gamers don't want it and your own staff doesn't want to use it, no point in wasting money trying to force it.
jaybone@lemmy.zip · 62 pts · 65d
Now try and convince the entire tech industry of that last sentence.
Sineljora@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 65d
I am, and I’m doing exactly what it takes to convince the entire tech industry. I’m not buying their shit. They’ll either capitulate or there will be an alternative tech industry.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 13 pts · 65d
I ran into a research article a couple weeks back pointing out that devs that use AI were 25% less productive, despite all "consultants" claiming they should be 25% more productive.
Hopefully the tech industry starts waking up once they start having to maintain the giant mess they've made
Zos_Kia@jlai.lu · 3 pts · 65d
I think the studio is taking the right lesson, but it doesn't necessarily apply to the tech industry.
Software is good when it is average (standard, unsurprising), while entertainment is good when it is out of distribution. By definition, you can't statistically sample good art and get good art at the output.
Tyrq@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 64d
the powers that be also want a plausible deniability machine, so they'll keep propping it up to murder innocent brown people. You know, because reasons.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 64d
Apparently they used some AI generated textures but removed them later. They did have a game that included AI generating images as gameplay.
mrbigmouth502@piefed.zip · 2 pts · 65d
When was that officially confirmed? I've been waiting for an answer to this question for years. I had heard they had denied using AI for character designs, but I wasn't sure if that was true or not.
Zahille7@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 65d
Well I guess the article this post is about could tell you the answer.
But then you'd actually have to read it.
slazer2au@lemmy.world · 64 pts · 65d
Good.
Eternal192@anarchist.nexus · 64 pts · 65d
I bought Palworld just to spite Nintendo and thus far i haven't regretted buying it.
supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz · 51 pts · 65d
AI is the worst kind of bullshit fantasy because it convinces people to dehumanize themselves and others with a condescending sense of inevitability for a future that the technology does not provide any hard evidence for being inevitable.
Human artists are supremely valuable, fuck this "rational" economic system that pretends otherwise.
Hathaway@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 65d
… but isn’t ai inevitable?
HoodieGyaru@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 65d
YouTube showing me the account that shared this YouTube link makes me feel so creeped out.
Hathaway@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 65d
Hm. Don’t love that.
xnx@piefed.social · 3 pts · 64d
You have to turn that off in settings or remove the tracker part of the link (everything after the ?)
Hathaway@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 64d
Thanks. I turned it off it settings now too, I don’t like that that was randomly introduced and not an opt in situation, but, I expect nothing less from Google.
Crashumbc@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 64d
And here I am going, yes I want to know where your bullshit is coming from...
Hathaway@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 62d
?
supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 65d
I love Man Carrying Thing and this might be one of his most important performances yet!
It is rare for an actor's work to completely capture my attention from beginning to end in a performance without my tastes becoming bored or the emotional heart strings the actors crudely pluck in me becoming tired and drawn out, but Man Carrying Thing had me paying attention for virtually his entire performance on this one!
scutiger@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 65d
But there were two guys there... which one was carrying thing?
supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 65d
You are the thing and the two men carry you forming a triangle.
Drekaridill@lemmy.wtf · 48 pts · 65d
Who could have possibly guessed that artists like doing art!
Gladaed@feddit.org · 25 pts · 65d
This exclusionary, contemporary AI definition really grinds my gears.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 43 pts · 65d
What do we call the thing that governs NPC behavior now?
Gutek8134@lemmy.world · 32 pts · 65d
Behavior trees
fartsparkles@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 65d
State Machines?
elvith@feddit.org · 11 pts · 65d
BucketBong@p.hobo.social · 9 pts · 65d
Voodoo tech
Ariselas@piefed.ca · 8 pts · 65d
fuzzy logic
scutiger@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 65d
It's never been AI, but that's what we called it anyway, and that's what we'll keep calling it.
Gladaed@feddit.org · -18 pts · 65d
> leftist brain
Or
> Right wing brain
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 17 pts · 65d
Centrist libs just have the biggest brains. So massive they can have so many diverse thoughts drifting around, never to collide.
Gladaed@feddit.org · 1 pts · 65d
I didn't feel like typing that out and tried to be non partisan.
Guess I should have /s'ed
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 65d
plus AI looks very strange in a picture or a video.
mrbigmouth502@piefed.zip · 23 pts · 65d
I really hope they're being sincere about these statements.
Truscape@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 7 pts · 65d
They kind of already went through the ringer with people accusing the pals of being AI generated pokemon (which was disproven by their lead artist).
drdiddlybadger@pawb.social · 17 pts · 65d
Great. Cause if they aren't paying people to make the game, I'm not paying to play the damn game.
Jankatarch@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 65d
Even if the game is free, I adhere by the rules of "time is money."
SnowzSan@lemmy.ca · 14 pts · 65d
See, I don't mind AI if it's used for stuff like NPC interactions and what not, but not for the creation of assets or mechanics.
At least in it's current iteration, AI can stand out like a sore thumb and once you see it, something is taken away from the experience.
I don't think I've played a game where I've seen AI but this definitely applies to other faucets.
everett@lemmy.ml · 18 pts · 65d
Which other faucets?
tacosanonymous@mander.xyz · 30 pts · 65d
Bathroom sink, outdoor, utility…
everett@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 65d
Stop, I can only get so wet.
SnowzSan@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 65d
Art, news articles, etc.
akwd169@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 65d
Facets?
SnowzSan@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 65d
The more you know. I always thought faucet was used colloquially like "another faucet of information."
I stand corrected.
LostCarcosan@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 65d
Well... Not to confuse the matter but a 'faucet of information' could technically be correct, if you're referring to a source of information. A FACET is like another side of something. A different face, if you will
JayGray91@piefed.social · 1 pts · 65d
Yeah, that could be a metaphor, I think. Or simile? I have forgotten my English lessons
akwd169@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 65d
Yeah its more like different facets of the same diamond, in my head at least
I guess more appropriately would be the same gem cut in different facets
Idk English is weird lol
Rai@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 65d
I never thought about that, but “faucet” in that context totally makes sense too! That’s delightful—my partner had a very similar thing where they thought “SMH” meant “so much hate”, or SMDH “so much damn hate”. In all contexts, it just kinda worked!
errer@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 65d
Almost certainly you’ve played a game where some of the code was AI generated. That’s pretty much impossible to notice.
SnowzSan@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 65d
That's why I've said "once you see it." I'm fully aware of vibe coding and I know it's useful to help speed things along and cut down development time.
I think I was more leaning towards assets than anything else, though I've seen people argue about mechanics and code, so I figured I'd include it.
MirrorGiraffe@piefed.social · 3 pts · 65d
I don't know any coders who doesn't use any kind of llm help these days. From prompting a snippet to fill blown agents.
mushroommunk@lemmy.today · 15 pts · 65d
Then you're 100% living in a bubble. High. Full time software engineer who does not use LLMs. Most of my friends do not use LLMs. There's way more of us than you think
MirrorGiraffe@piefed.social · 4 pts · 65d
I'm not saying you don't exist, and I'm happy for you that you have an opportunity to code yourself, but yeah where I'm at it's a slumbering art.
Badabinski@kbin.earth · 6 pts · 65d
Senior software dev here at a company you know of. I was forced to use Claude for a week at my job and it was absolutely miserable. I hate LLMs and don't use them in any way, shape, or form. I do spend a lot of time cleaning up the fucking slop written by some of my colleagues who have no qualms about unleashing them on our codebase which is already bursting with tech debt.
Like, it's gotten to the point where I check potential new dependencies for
AGENTS.md/CLAUDE.md/Claude as a commit co-author/.cursorin.gitignorebefore I use them. It's obviously not possible to avoid using code written with LLMs, but I've had too many fucking problems at this point, so I'm going to try.MirrorGiraffe@piefed.social · 1 pts · 65d
Oh I agree it creates many problems, especially when going full vibe. I'm a tech lead at a company you will never hear about and we're being pushed to experiment with llms, trying to find ways to increase productivity.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 65d
Engineer/programmer here. Me and my coworker have never used AI to code.
We have a mature codebase, there's no point to have an LLM make code for us.
chunes@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 65d
Hi.
MirrorGiraffe@piefed.social · 1 pts · 64d
Nice to meet you!
chunes@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 65d
It's more noticeable than you think in execution time, memory usage and file size
Someonelol@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 65d
Ooh instead of the same shitty dialogue from unimportant NPCs they can vary what they say every time you talk to them? That genuinely sounds like it'd improve immersion but we're so beyond that level that I don't find it very appealing at the moment.
taiyang@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 65d
Typically NPC dialogue also serves more than immersion, such as helping the player solve a quest or find a hidden thing. Some are for world building, too, but even that might be risky with AI since you may end up with inconsistencies that would actually be counter to immersion in the long run.
Like, you don't get actors to ad lib whole scripts in a movie no matter how versed there are in the story.
Zahille7@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 65d
Look up the Mantella mod for Skyrim.
General Sam has a great video showcasing what the mod can do. He literally ends up going on a couple random quests with a fuckin bear because some town guards killed the bear's friend. It was awesome.
shininghero@pawb.social · 2 pts · 65d
The sad part is, it could with a little tweaking.
But that well has been so heavily poisoned by corporate bubble blowing interests, that attempting anything with it is a potential death sentence for your entire project.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 65d
only if the dialogue is already pre-written by people.
Jotunn@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 65d
This is the same studio that gave us AI: Art Impostor. Guess that is how they learned it's hated.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 64d
Where is the line of "no AI" exactly?
While the game certainly isn't vibecoded, I would bet some Pocketpair devs used an LLM for a Python script, to figure out something in documentation, to point them somewhere over an error, maybe some Windows issue; you know, utilitarian things.
Artists likely use oldschool ML models in their graphics software, without even knowing it. Or maybe when processing textures to finish them. Or to search through assets, or documentation.
I'm just saying, if you're strict with the definition, it would be really hard to block an entire dev studio from all "AI." It would almost certainly seep in from casual use, legacy integration, or "oldschool" things like image recognition and processing.
It doesn't mean they have to vibecode or ship slop assets, of course. When they say "no AI," that's what I hear, and exactly what I want.
But I think studios, especially larger ones, need to be careful about labels like "100% human," lest something come to light that seems to contradict the guarantee.
binux@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 64d
I imagine by “AI” they mean strictly LLMs from OpenAI and other related sources. It’s more or less a consequence of the term being used as a catch-all by marketing teams even if it’s misleading.
They’ve for sure used machine learning tools in their development process, I have no doubt about that. I mean, that’s literally what code completion is. That’s been a thing for much longer than LLMs though, and it’s really only a supplement to the actual intentions & efforts of the devs using it. Stuff like that is useless if you don’t have any game development expertise.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 64d
But see, even in this interview, the lead is dodging code completion questions. As non-devs could interpret that as "AI in the game."
binux@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 64d
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t seem like the interviewee was ever asked about tools like code completion. The article focuses almost exclusively on ‘generative AI’ and PocketPair’s attitude towards its usage in game development. I don’t think it’s fair to consider it a dodging of questions if said questions seemingly weren’t brought up to begin with.
Besides, I doubt non-devs even really know about/understand machine learning tools in game development aside from the standard AI slop machines. For them code completion probably seems more like a standard programming tool as opposed to something more akin to an LLM, especially since most people already know about things like autocorrect through their phones and the like which is pretty similar.
systemglitch@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 65d
I'm buying palworld one day.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 65d
It leaves early access soon. Maybe consider marking the calendar?
Zahille7@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 65d
July 10th to be exact
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 65d
No idea why you got downvoted
Zahille7@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 65d
I'm wondering if it's some people upset from another thread just being petty.
Edit: upon looking at my comment history, almost all of them have a new downvote that wasn't there before. I definitely upset someone, apparently, enough for them to go through my entire comment history and downvote each one I've ever made.
systemglitch@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 63d
Some people need to get outside and learn to actually enjoy it. Then I bet they would not find their time best spent combing someone's post history to down vote the comments.
I honestly feel bad for people like that.
Kn1ghtDigital@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 65d
Wise choice, pal world...
ysjet@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 64d
That's pretty rich coming from pocket pair. "We don't use the art and design stealing machine, we steal the art and designs ourselves!"
Smeef@crazypeople.online · 1 pts · 64d
Now that is some good marketing.
IPeaceInYourFace@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 65d
Init bro
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 64d
Ironic coming from a studio that used to use a lot of AI. But I guess some people can change their mind.
SabinStargem@lemmy.today · -8 pts · 65d
As a gamer and in most things, I want AI. It is the results that matter to me, not the method. Be it sewn by hand or the loom, the final product has to be good enough to justify my time and money.
The problems come from who and why, which boils down to the feckless elite wanting to exploit and boss around people. As we have seen countless times in the past, corporations never needed AI to be cruel to people.
GeneralEmergency@lemmy.world · -13 pts · 65d
Idk.
The amount of AI "Ash with a Glock to Pikachu's head" Palworld video thumbnails I have seen tell me otherwise.
potustheplant@feddit.nl · 9 pts · 65d
I just searched for palworld videos and found literally 0 videos with a thumbnail that fits that description. Also, a shitty thumbnail to get more clicks is a common practice. It doesn't mean that people want or support AI. Not to mention that, for all you know, those images could've been generated manually.
GeneralEmergency@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 62d
I've never been hit with one of those "it's me your kid I'm using a friend's phone give me money" scams.
Know that they're real though.
potustheplant@feddit.nl · 0 pts · 61d
Dude, if they're real and there are lots of them, share an example.
Also, your analogy makes 0 sense. I'm not saying that they haven't popped up for me, I literally searched for them and found no videos or thumbnails that matched your description. If you google scams you'll find lots of examples.