evidence from a single study suggests pigeons may not be wired to repeat behaviors that have rewarded them previously, instead opting to try new behaviors
Thank you!
And IMO that would be an exceedingly strange takeaway as I see it in general, pigeons being some classic Pavlovian-exhibiting animals as it were. So then, perhaps what's being suggested here is that they're more exploratory and exhibit much more free will and unpredictability than previously imagined..?
Something like that. I think the study wasn't designed/interpreted well to demonstrate variable behavior.
They presented the pigeons with 5 differently colored buttons. 5 button presses of any color in any order would dispense a food reward.
The pigeons continued to press random buttons and get their food. The researchers argued that since the pigeons didn't press the same sequence every time, or the same button 5 times in a row, that this demonstrates they prefer to try new behaviors rather than stick with ones they know result in a reward.
I think they might be giving the pigeons too much credit, intelligence-wise... but I'm kind of a pigeon hater so I'm severely biased lol
5 button presses of any color in any order would dispense a food reward.
With rules like that, I don't understand why you would expect the pigeons to repeat the same sequence. Of course, this is yet another study that shouldn't have even made it through peer review.
With rules like that I would expect people to split onto two groups: ones that learn one pattern and repeat it because it's a guaranteed result, and one that tries to find a counterexample to the rule they thought of at first. The fact that pigeons try different patterns kind of makes them more clever in my eyes.
But it's known that pigeons perform better than humans in Monty Hall problem, so they are really pretty smart when it comes to statistics, it seems
Did they have a control group where the colors did matter? If there was never a condition of it mattering, why would anyone vary the presses, unless they just liked pressing red a lot, or the easier to reach buttons, or something else. Seems like an experiment that had already determined the result.
Yeah it seems that probably pigeons didn't know what worked or didn't work and since they never got a wrong answer after 5 button pushes, nothing mattered. Did they push the buttons faster?
Pigeons prefer to switch up the way they perform useful behaviours.
Researchers know that rewarding a behaviour makes it more frequent, and they assumed it also makes behaviours more consistent. But they tried it with pigeons, and pigeons prefer to do the rewarded behaviour in lots of different ways. They like changing up their strategy for getting treats.
They think this might not be unique to pigeons, so they're gonna try it with some other animals next.
Speaking anecdotally, I prefer to use a variety of different Go openings over the same one again and again.
I notice this especially with music. Some genres of music sound all the same to me, but I'm also certain some music I listen to is interchangable to other people.
Once you can sink into something, little details start to matter more.
I have a terminal disease, with my focus & energy being pretty much the first things impacted. I did appreciate a couple folks above who seemed to be in the know doing their best to explain, which wound up opening the conversation for others.
There’s one that lives near my house. Initially i felt bad always seeing it alone. However as time passes I can confirm it is definitely an agent of chaos: randomly crashing into the dogs’ pool and bird bath at full speed, sending the grackles, finches and sparrows flying, and making “nests” in the dumbest places possible such as the window sill near our front door when it’s terrified of us. It somehow laid an egg in our mailbox that is always closed. The other birds give it a very wide berth any time it lands near them, and now i think I understand why.
I feel this as a Millennial. Being able to adapt to change is at the core of our existence. Since pigeons live in cities where they take whatever opportunities arise, I'm not terribly surprised they are willing to try new things and see what happens. Similarly, I feel like if I didn't get used to chaotic change, modern life would be impossible to navigate.
It's funny, though, that pigeons refuse to be "pigeonholed" into one way of doing things.
with no selection pressure, they can become "Stupider: since people drop refuse and scraps for them to feed off of, plus next to no threats from birds of prey in cities.
You'll notice their range includes essentially everywhere on earth, though they really thrive in cities.
Due to their greater abundance in cities than most other birds, feral pigeons support many peregrine populations as a staple food source, especially in urban settings.
The peregrine is a highly successful example of urban wildlife in much of its range, taking advantage of tall buildings as nest sites, and an abundance of prey such as pigeons and ducks.
Oh yeah, I see the red tailed hawks all the time, and I'm not far from the city. We even have some bald eagles these days. We don't see them often, but there are some.
There is still plenty of selection pressure. However, there has been even more artificial selection. Darwin was actually fascinated by domestic pigeons and studied them intensively https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3288640/
58 Comments
JohnnyEnzyme@piefed.social · 43 pts · 80d
TL;DR..?
janus2@lemmy.zip · 83 pts · 80d
evidence from a single study suggests pigeons may not be wired to repeat behaviors that have rewarded them previously, instead opting to try new behaviors
JohnnyEnzyme@piefed.social · 26 pts · 80d
Thank you!
And IMO that would be an exceedingly strange takeaway as I see it in general, pigeons being some classic Pavlovian-exhibiting animals as it were. So then, perhaps what's being suggested here is that they're more exploratory and exhibit much more free will and unpredictability than previously imagined..?
Or something like that?
janus2@lemmy.zip · 22 pts · 80d
Something like that. I think the study wasn't designed/interpreted well to demonstrate variable behavior.
They presented the pigeons with 5 differently colored buttons. 5 button presses of any color in any order would dispense a food reward.
The pigeons continued to press random buttons and get their food. The researchers argued that since the pigeons didn't press the same sequence every time, or the same button 5 times in a row, that this demonstrates they prefer to try new behaviors rather than stick with ones they know result in a reward.
I think they might be giving the pigeons too much credit, intelligence-wise... but I'm kind of a pigeon hater so I'm severely biased lol
p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 11 pts · 80d
With rules like that, I don't understand why you would expect the pigeons to repeat the same sequence. Of course, this is yet another study that shouldn't have even made it through peer review.
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 2 pts · 79d
They thought the pigeons would develop a favourite button or a favourite pattern. But the pigeons prefer variety over favourites.
sukhmel@programming.dev · 1 pts · 79d
With rules like that I would expect people to split onto two groups: ones that learn one pattern and repeat it because it's a guaranteed result, and one that tries to find a counterexample to the rule they thought of at first. The fact that pigeons try different patterns kind of makes them more clever in my eyes.
But it's known that pigeons perform better than humans in Monty Hall problem, so they are really pretty smart when it comes to statistics, it seems
Rhaedas@fedia.io · 10 pts · 80d
Did they have a control group where the colors did matter? If there was never a condition of it mattering, why would anyone vary the presses, unless they just liked pressing red a lot, or the easier to reach buttons, or something else. Seems like an experiment that had already determined the result.
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 79d
Well, it does tend to happen with rats/monkeys/people.
If 5 buttons all work the same way, you just hit whichever one is closest or whatever, over and over again. You spam it, hit it as fast as you can.
I can wake up my computer by hitting any key, I have something like 50 keys to choose from, I click the mouse every time.
justaman123@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 80d
justaman123@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 80d
Yeah it seems that probably pigeons didn't know what worked or didn't work and since they never got a wrong answer after 5 button pushes, nothing mattered. Did they push the buttons faster?
Hadriscus@jlai.lu · 3 pts · 79d
So pigeons are both chaotic AND nihilistic !
Steve@startrek.website · 5 pts · 80d
But if theres no wrong answer why would they
justaman123@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 80d
Yeah maybe they were wondering if they could get something better to happen and there was no cost in just pushing random buttons so why not
Kraiden@piefed.social · 3 pts · 80d
Also wouldn't that mean that pigeons wouldn't be trainable with treats?
I have a friend who trains WILD pigeons with food, so... doubt
EmilieEasie@fedinsfw.app · 1 pts · 80d
Trains wild pigeons where?
Kraiden@piefed.social · 3 pts · 80d
Around Wellington CBD. It's not just her, it's a thing people do
https://youtube.com/shorts/9w1l9q9qXMw
EmilieEasie@fedinsfw.app · 3 pts · 80d
Thank you for pigeon training videos. You knew exactly why I asked LOL
weew@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 79d
I think they've only found that pigeons can't count to 5
errer@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 80d
takeaway: pigeons are wild in the sack
plyth@feddit.org · 2 pts · 80d
The prisoner experiment, the marshmallow test, now the pigeon experiments of the Skinner Box. Which psychology experiment will stand the test of time?
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 80d
Or in layman's terms, pigeons are completely stupid.
janus2@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 80d
Unless they just find pushing the different buttons more fun than pushing the same button 5 times. "haha buttons go brrrrrr"
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 12 pts · 79d
Pigeons prefer to switch up the way they perform useful behaviours.
Researchers know that rewarding a behaviour makes it more frequent, and they assumed it also makes behaviours more consistent. But they tried it with pigeons, and pigeons prefer to do the rewarded behaviour in lots of different ways. They like changing up their strategy for getting treats.
They think this might not be unique to pigeons, so they're gonna try it with some other animals next.
Speaking anecdotally, I prefer to use a variety of different Go openings over the same one again and again.
Smoogs@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 79d
they are making sure we know they arent an NPC
schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 79d
Wouldn't using different Go openings be disadvantageous to you if you're playing a different partner every time?
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 4 pts · 79d
I don't care, brain craves variety. It's more fun to do lots of different things.
schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 79d
Variety is kind of a moving target for brains.
I notice this especially with music. Some genres of music sound all the same to me, but I'm also certain some music I listen to is interchangable to other people.
Once you can sink into something, little details start to matter more.
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 79d
As articles go, this isn't a long one, just saying.
chefdano3@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 79d
It is paywalled though.
quick_snail@feddit.nl · 4 pts · 79d
Disable JavaScript. Loads fine.
JohnnyEnzyme@piefed.social · 2 pts · 78d
I have a terminal disease, with my focus & energy being pretty much the first things impacted. I did appreciate a couple folks above who seemed to be in the know doing their best to explain, which wound up opening the conversation for others.
So... just sayin' that, too.
sleepmode@lemmy.world · 32 pts · 79d
There’s one that lives near my house. Initially i felt bad always seeing it alone. However as time passes I can confirm it is definitely an agent of chaos: randomly crashing into the dogs’ pool and bird bath at full speed, sending the grackles, finches and sparrows flying, and making “nests” in the dumbest places possible such as the window sill near our front door when it’s terrified of us. It somehow laid an egg in our mailbox that is always closed. The other birds give it a very wide berth any time it lands near them, and now i think I understand why.
Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 79d
I feel this as a Millennial. Being able to adapt to change is at the core of our existence. Since pigeons live in cities where they take whatever opportunities arise, I'm not terribly surprised they are willing to try new things and see what happens. Similarly, I feel like if I didn't get used to chaotic change, modern life would be impossible to navigate.
It's funny, though, that pigeons refuse to be "pigeonholed" into one way of doing things.
stardreamer@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 7 pts · 79d
It's all fun and games until the pigeons start vibe coding and taking human jobs.
Salamanderwizard@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 79d
This sounds like what a pigeon would say.
So...how you do feel about bread crumbs?
Wren@lemmy.today · 18 pts · 80d
No paywall link: https://removepaywalls.com/https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/chaotic-pigeons-are-helping-redefine-what-we-know-about-learning/
dantheclamman@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 80d
The original paper is also open access and a fairly accessible read! https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2027-47688-001
Captainautism@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 16 pts · 80d
Me too, pigeon.
bstix@feddit.dk · 10 pts · 79d
What would happen if you were placed in a cubicle and money appeared when you pressed the 5 button combination?
I know I would attempt other combinations. Even if I was told the right combination from the beginning.
The money keeps coming every time, and the payment is clearly an acceptable cost, so there are obviously a lot more money available.
It's not that I'm greedy. I'm just not happy being fed only a trickle of the potential.
Psaldorn@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 80d
Same
rem26_art@fedia.io · 8 pts · 80d
sounds like they've mastered...
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 9 pts · 80d
pigeon pulls out a gun
Zorque@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 80d
Oh no!
All right
Chili dogs!
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 80d
with no selection pressure, they can become "Stupider: since people drop refuse and scraps for them to feed off of, plus next to no threats from birds of prey in cities.
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 79d
Let me introduce you to the peregrine falcon
You'll notice their range includes essentially everywhere on earth, though they really thrive in cities.
schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 79d
DDT really did a number on urban avian predators; it gets concentrated up the food chain and then the eggs of birds become too fragile.
I haven't checked in for a few years, but I think New York City was making efforts to reintroduce them.
And it's funny to me to have an environmental initiative largely motivated by "something needs to be killing all these fucking pigeons."
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 79d
they mostly remediated that at least for wild birds eggs.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 79d
partially some red tailed hawks have made cities thier homes.
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 79d
Oh yeah, I see the red tailed hawks all the time, and I'm not far from the city. We even have some bald eagles these days. We don't see them often, but there are some.
andros_rex@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 79d
Pigeons are domesticated animals that humans abandoned. Of course they’re dependent on human trash - just like stray dogs and cats are.
quick_snail@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 79d
Even seagulls eat pidgeons
dantheclamman@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 79d
There is still plenty of selection pressure. However, there has been even more artificial selection. Darwin was actually fascinated by domestic pigeons and studied them intensively https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3288640/
KurtVonnegut@mander.xyz · 3 pts · 80d
Peck peck peck peck peck.
trainsrkool@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 80d
based pigeons
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 80d
Or that pigeons are utterly stupid.
dantheclamman@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 80d
Pigeons are actually fairly intelligent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_intelligence