I tgink I heard of that. Didn't the "scientist" just like self isolate, angry that they didn't fight eachother, while the other passengers became lifelong friends and had a great time?
It went beyond that. In an attempt to ferment discontent in the group he started reading their reports out loud. Airing all their dirty laundry. Instead of getting them mad at each other he basically forced them to settle all their issues and form together, closer than ever. After that didn't work he started trying to usurp authority from the captain that he selected because he thought as a woman she would crumble under the pressure of command. His greatest accomplishment as the new captain was damaging a fuel line and failing to fix it by swimming in the fuel and water.
If I remember correctly they had to rescue him and distract him while they fixed it themselves and after that he basically sulked in the corner of the raft. Only getting the balls to try something near the end of the experiment, trying to Shanghai the raft and expand the experiment to try and force his theories into reality. After they finally got back the subjects would get together every few years to relive the good old days without him.
It's ironic, by trying to get them to hate each other he accidentally became something for all of them to rally against.
You know, you reminded me of a vague memory. Making that same mistake in school, being corrected, and deciding that I liked it better my way. I was a stubborn child.
Apparently they're related to two different Latin phrases. Fervēre, meaning "to boil or seethe," and fōvēre, meaning "to keep warm" or "to heat". So they're similar in definition and sound. Off by just a matter of degree.
Fermenting is usually when you make something rot in a specific way that makes something delicious. In that vein I propose it be applied to the exact sort of situation on the raft where someone tries to forment a discontent raft and accidentally fermented a friend ship.
That's awesome. Like he was really hoping for some dismal and dark exposé on "savage human nature" a la "Lord of the Flies", and at every turn, proven wrong by people who were happy to just get along and cooperate for mutual benefit...
... Which should come as a complete shock, social species that we are! /s
I think these desperately dark tales of people turning on each other in sociological contexts is another propaganda tool to put this idea in our heads that without "qualified leaders" we'd all just be grunting and beating each other over the head with rocks.
Nah, someone with something to gain has to motivate us to fight each other. What if we just said "lol, anyway" and kept getting along on the raft?
Sole problem left: there are those arseholes like the "leader" here actively trying to destroy every good thing. Fix that and we can have a wonderful society IMO.
That social bond doesn't scale and it is why have had to invent government, police, schools, hospitals, etc. The guy's idea was right (imo), he just had the wrong scale.
Catalonia during the Spanish Civil war did a good job of demonstrating that smaller communities could federate and work together cooperatively without a centralized hierarchical government.
Fun fact a lot of people, including myself, believe the invention of reality TV was actually the writer strike in early 2000s. Basically TV writers went to the producers and said "you make all these millions and only pay us this small amount when we are the reason people watch these shows". The producers basically said "fuck you we will make TV shows without writers"
That created reality TV in America and panel shows in the UK.
This is widely credited as the origin of modern reality tv, but it's not completely true. The earliest reality shows I can remember are Road Rules and The Real World, and those both predate the strike.
It goes to show that humans are actually good to each other on an individual level or in small groups.
It's when we place ourselves in massive groups and communities of thousands or millions or billions of people that we start to act terribly to other humans.
"tribalism" being the word we use to label when a civilization engages in pointless violence when it's tribes that avoid this bullshit naturally by excluding the waste of time members of society who try to break society is so frustrating to me
the perverted ones yea, scientists usually dont have trouble finding SOs. i remember reading a book about prion research and one of them has a "unusual predilection towards young boys, in SE asia" where he was studying kuru, although the book dint come out in say it, they were implying he was a pedo. i believed he worked for a well known university in a UC.
this "experiment" is SO much funnier than this post implies, the idea of the experiment is that in nature if you put males and females together they will either turn to 100% hate or 100% lust.
When the people were just having fun on the boat away from society he was upset that they weren't fucking he would act like an asshole to them.
When they inevitably got sick of his ass and yelled at him he wrote in his notes something along the lines of "I think my experiment is leaning twords pure rage side"
In 1973, Mexican anthropologist Santiago Genovés set out to test a hypothesis. He had been struck by the connection between violence and sexuality in monkeys. “Most conflicts,” he noted, “are about sexual access to ovulating females.”
But would this apply to humans, too? To find out, Genovés asked a British boat builder to make a 12x7 metre raft called the Acali on which he planned to sail with 10 sexually attractive young people across the Atlantic from the Canary Islands to Mexico.
To spur conflict onboard, Genovés minimised opportunities for privacy.
The boat would have no engines and would sail towards the Caribbean, just in time for hurricane season. Genovés knew that the Acali was sailing into danger but thought science justified the risk. “I believe that in a dangerous situation people will act on their instincts and I will be able to study them.”
wild
He put women in charge, in part to reflect what he thought was growing gender equality. The raft was captained by Maria Björnstam and Edna Reves was ship doctor; men were given menial tasks. “I wonder if having women in power will lead to less violence or more,” mused Genovés. “Maybe men will become more frustrated when women are in charge, and try to take over power.”
Not that Genovés’ raft was an antidote to the patriarchy. With a Caribbean hurricane brewing, Maria, the experienced ship’s captain, recommended they pull into a port to sit out the storm. Genovés, fearing the ruin of his experiment if they did so, mutinied and took control of the raft.
oh the irony
But Genovés was symbolically castrated later, on the Atlantic crossing. A huge container ship bore down on the little raft and he panicked. Only Maria kept a cool head and organised flares to ward off the looming ship. After that, the guinea pigs turned on the scientist: Maria became captain again.
Overthrown, Genovés retreated below deck and collapsed into depression, made worse by news on the radio that his university wanted to be dissociated from the scandalous Sex Raft headlines. While lying there he started to cry for the first time since childhood and had an existential epiphany, writing: “Only one has shown any kind of aggression and that is me, a man trying to control everyone else, including himself.”
Was the Peace Project a failure? Fé argues it was a great success, even though the anthropologist couldn’t see it: “He was so focused on the violence and conflict, but he had it right in his hands. We started out as them and us and we became us.”
For Lindeen, it’s poignant that Fé praises the experiment. “If only [Genovés] had listened to why people were on the raft – Mary escaping an abusive husband, the racism Fé had suffered – he would have learned about the consequences of violence and how sometimes we can overcome it by overcoming our differences.”
yeah i guess genoves was so focused on the science, he forgot to look at the humans involved.
I remember hearing there were one or two hookups, all supported by the rest of the group giving them as much privacy as possible. Yeah, turns out that if you remove societal pressures and leave people alone, they tend to be pretty chill.
So, hear me out here, there is a huge reproduction crisis out there. In theory, you could try to replicate this study without the researcher being an asshole and see if it still works out and this would be a valuable line of research that could technically get funded.
I'm going to need a decent ship, some volunteers, and a 101 day supply of daiquiris.
Edit: (For clarity - this is scientific reproduction, not human reproduction)
Next, in another cage I confined an Irish Catholic from Tipperary, and as soon as he seemed tame I added a Scotch Presbyterian from Aberdeen. Next a Turk from Constantinople; a Greek Christian from Crete; an Armenian; a Methodist from the wilds of Arkansaw; a Bhuddist from China; a Brahmin from Benares. Finally, a Salvation Army Colonel from Wapping. Then I stayed away two whole days. When I came back to note results, the cage of Higher Animals was all right, but in the other there was but a chaos of gory odds and ends of turbans and fezzes and plaids and bones and flesh—not a specimen left alive. These Reasoning Animals had disagreed on a theological detail and carried the matter to a Higher Court.
There's an HBO Max original reality series called The Raft that sets out to "replicate" this "experiment" while injecting the usually reality competition faire. It's a pretty fun watch
After watching this, and also studying the Stanford experiment. It seems to me the source of much human conflict isn't sex like the sociologist hypothesized, but class structures. But he seemed to refuse to even entrain that possibility.
95 Comments
HappyFrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 232 pts · 281d
I tgink I heard of that. Didn't the "scientist" just like self isolate, angry that they didn't fight eachother, while the other passengers became lifelong friends and had a great time?
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 321 pts · 281d
It went beyond that. In an attempt to ferment discontent in the group he started reading their reports out loud. Airing all their dirty laundry. Instead of getting them mad at each other he basically forced them to settle all their issues and form together, closer than ever. After that didn't work he started trying to usurp authority from the captain that he selected because he thought as a woman she would crumble under the pressure of command. His greatest accomplishment as the new captain was damaging a fuel line and failing to fix it by swimming in the fuel and water.
If I remember correctly they had to rescue him and distract him while they fixed it themselves and after that he basically sulked in the corner of the raft. Only getting the balls to try something near the end of the experiment, trying to Shanghai the raft and expand the experiment to try and force his theories into reality. After they finally got back the subjects would get together every few years to relive the good old days without him.
It's ironic, by trying to get them to hate each other he accidentally became something for all of them to rally against.
null@piefed.nullspace.lol · 151 pts · 281d
I'm stealing this typo.
(It's "foment", but I love the imagery of rotten, festering discontent)
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 55 pts · 281d
You know, you reminded me of a vague memory. Making that same mistake in school, being corrected, and deciding that I liked it better my way. I was a stubborn child.
null@piefed.nullspace.lol · 35 pts · 281d
It is 100% better your way.
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 32 pts · 281d
Apparently they're related to two different Latin phrases. Fervēre, meaning "to boil or seethe," and fōvēre, meaning "to keep warm" or "to heat". So they're similar in definition and sound. Off by just a matter of degree.
null@piefed.nullspace.lol · 17 pts · 281d
Even better!
Fuck_u_spez_@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 281d
And you reminded me of the Lord of War
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 8 pts · 281d
I need to rewatch this movie. Just the opening sequence alone lives in my head after decades.
io@piefed.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 280d
it's actually war lord
Venator@lemmy.nz · 2 pts · 277d
Fermenting is usually when you make something rot in a specific way that makes something delicious. In that vein I propose it be applied to the exact sort of situation on the raft where someone tries to forment a discontent raft and accidentally fermented a friend ship.
HowAbt2day@futurology.today · 20 pts · 281d
Kimchi Conflict. A great name for a punk band.
MajorasTerribleFate@lemmy.zip · 9 pts · 281d
Right alongside Kombucha Combat
SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 281d
Natty Natto
napoleonsdumbcousin@feddit.org · 55 pts · 281d
The linked article in the post claims that the crew never met again until the person filming the documentary tracked some of them down.
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 33 pts · 281d
I knew I'd get something wrong. lol thanks for the correction.
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today · 49 pts · 281d
That's awesome. Like he was really hoping for some dismal and dark exposé on "savage human nature" a la "Lord of the Flies", and at every turn, proven wrong by people who were happy to just get along and cooperate for mutual benefit...
... Which should come as a complete shock, social species that we are! /s
I think these desperately dark tales of people turning on each other in sociological contexts is another propaganda tool to put this idea in our heads that without "qualified leaders" we'd all just be grunting and beating each other over the head with rocks.
Nah, someone with something to gain has to motivate us to fight each other. What if we just said "lol, anyway" and kept getting along on the raft?
Valmond@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 281d
Sole problem left: there are those arseholes like the "leader" here actively trying to destroy every good thing. Fix that and we can have a wonderful society IMO.
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 13 pts · 281d
Exactly my thoughts. The real cause of crime and violence in the abstract is inequality in the macro and social disorder in the micro.
bookmeat@lemmynsfw.com · 8 pts · 281d
That social bond doesn't scale and it is why have had to invent government, police, schools, hospitals, etc. The guy's idea was right (imo), he just had the wrong scale.
ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net · 15 pts · 281d
Catalonia during the Spanish Civil war did a good job of demonstrating that smaller communities could federate and work together cooperatively without a centralized hierarchical government.
https://kolektiva.media/w/pKgGZtPdpr8MBeMxNTQjGJ?start=35m23s
BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 281d
Lord of the Flies was also a direct answer to a book that was really popular during England's colonial hey day(?) called the Island, I think.
Basically, English colonial culture wasn't as good as we might have thought.
hakase@lemmy.zip · 31 pts · 281d
Major Payne already taught us that this works:
"They hate you!"
"Good. It'll draw them close together, make 'em a team."
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 11 pts · 281d
laserwash2000@sh.itjust.works · 23 pts · 281d
“Hey guys, I think this is the Bad Place!”
tacosanonymous@mander.xyz · 16 pts · 281d
I mostly agree with the other *homey about “foment.”
I just want to add that all of the social experiments I’ve ever seen, *participated in, and/or ran nothing brings people together like a common enemy.
TheOneAndOnly@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 281d
This is why the US Army has drill sergeants.
Admetus@sopuli.xyz · 13 pts · 281d
Like reverse Stockholm syndrome.
ladicius@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 281d
More like the age old scare politicians use to unite nations: An outward enemy.
AppleTea@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 281d
Except everyone hates on the politician instead.
TheFogan@programming.dev · 13 pts · 281d
So... did this scientists great grandchildren invent reality TV?
vrek@programming.dev · 19 pts · 281d
Fun fact a lot of people, including myself, believe the invention of reality TV was actually the writer strike in early 2000s. Basically TV writers went to the producers and said "you make all these millions and only pay us this small amount when we are the reason people watch these shows". The producers basically said "fuck you we will make TV shows without writers"
That created reality TV in America and panel shows in the UK.
FryHyde@lemmy.zip · 24 pts · 281d
This is widely credited as the origin of modern reality tv, but it's not completely true. The earliest reality shows I can remember are Road Rules and The Real World, and those both predate the strike.
vrek@programming.dev · 14 pts · 281d
True, maybe didn't create the concept but definitely expanded it
khannie@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 281d
Big brother is the first reality TV show that I recall being popular in the UK and Ireland. It kicked off in 2000 so well before the writers strike.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(British_TV_series)
DeathsEmbrace@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 281d
Lelouche or Code Geasse’s storyboard
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 281d
A tale as old as time.
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 281d
Some kinda ‘Aguirre, the Wrath of God’ shit.
man_wtfhappenedtoyou@lemmy.world · 34 pts · 281d
That scientist sounds like a real bitch.
ininewcrow@lemmy.ca · 27 pts · 281d
It goes to show that humans are actually good to each other on an individual level or in small groups.
It's when we place ourselves in massive groups and communities of thousands or millions or billions of people that we start to act terribly to other humans.
Quill7513@slrpnk.net · 16 pts · 281d
"tribalism" being the word we use to label when a civilization engages in pointless violence when it's tribes that avoid this bullshit naturally by excluding the waste of time members of society who try to break society is so frustrating to me
LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 281d
In all fairness, tribes did occasionally fight.
Quill7513@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 281d
sure. but tribes didn't often engage in systematic eliminations. genocide is something civilizations do
LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 281d
Probably depends on the definition of "tribe", but yeah, I agree in principle.
Honytawk@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 280d
You mean like the civilization of Homo Sapien Sapiens that genocided the Neanderthals?
jol@discuss.tchncs.de · 12 pts · 281d
Sounds like projection from the incel scientists.
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social · 8 pts · 281d
Scientist
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 281d
the perverted ones yea, scientists usually dont have trouble finding SOs. i remember reading a book about prion research and one of them has a "unusual predilection towards young boys, in SE asia" where he was studying kuru, although the book dint come out in say it, they were implying he was a pedo. i believed he worked for a well known university in a UC.
Sunforged@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 281d
I was foggy on the details but yeah that sounds familiar.
QuinnyCoded@sh.itjust.works · 90 pts · 281d
this "experiment" is SO much funnier than this post implies, the idea of the experiment is that in nature if you put males and females together they will either turn to 100% hate or 100% lust.
When the people were just having fun on the boat away from society he was upset that they weren't fucking he would act like an asshole to them.
When they inevitably got sick of his ass and yelled at him he wrote in his notes something along the lines of "I think my experiment is leaning twords pure rage side"
there's so much more to it that I'm forgetting but this video is 100% a watch https://youtu.be/BHXw3E1VqK4
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de · 61 pts · 280d
wild
oh the irony
yeah i guess genoves was so focused on the science, he forgot to look at the humans involved.
Evotech@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 280d
But was there much fucking?
Doesn't sound like it.
LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works · 35 pts · 280d
I remember hearing there were one or two hookups, all supported by the rest of the group giving them as much privacy as possible. Yeah, turns out that if you remove societal pressures and leave people alone, they tend to be pretty chill.
YashaB@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 280d
asking the important questions!
null@piefed.nullspace.lol · 56 pts · 281d
Brb, setting up an instance on https://sex.raft/
See you all at the floating orgy!
WhyIHateTheInternet@lemmy.world · 48 pts · 281d
Aw man...
I'm always late
biggerbogboy@sh.itjust.works · 23 pts · 281d
c/usernamechecksout
RustyShackleford@lemmy.zip · 17 pts · 281d
I would actually join this lol.
buttnugget@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 280d
Who wouldn’t join a sexy domain?
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 26 pts · 281d
They had the sex but forgot to write it down, so they were just screwing
around.Dagnet@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 281d
One of the rare cases where fucking around did not lead to finding out
Gork@sopuli.xyz · 23 pts · 281d
By his actions to stir up drama, I can probably say with confidence that he did not get laid on that journey.
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 18 pts · 281d
If you televised that it would get 23 seasons on Hulu.
FatVegan@leminal.space · 7 pts · 281d
Something tells me this already has 5 seasons and 8 spin offs on TLC
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 281d
Can't wait for MILF Sex Raft
FatVegan@leminal.space · 3 pts · 280d
There used to be that joke on 30 Rock about MILF island. It used to be the most absurd thing they could think of, and that's kind of a thing now.
ameancow@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 280d
Cruxifux@feddit.nl · 17 pts · 281d
The dollop did an episode on this and it’s absolutely bonkers.
Solventbubbles@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 281d
Came here to say this! Highly recommend a listen.
The Dollop Episode 659 - The Love Raft
Cruxifux@feddit.nl · 3 pts · 281d
Nice to see fellow doll heads
Rune_Walsh@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 281d
Great episode. Absolutely bonkers and I still sing "Why do we fight? Why do we fight?" when my kid wants to argue with me. It's a great diffuser.
Cruxifux@feddit.nl · 3 pts · 281d
Nice to see fellow doll heads
HexesofVexes@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 281d
So, hear me out here, there is a huge reproduction crisis out there. In theory, you could try to replicate this study without the researcher being an asshole and see if it still works out and this would be a valuable line of research that could technically get funded.
I'm going to need a decent ship, some volunteers, and a 101 day supply of daiquiris.
Edit: (For clarity - this is scientific reproduction, not human reproduction)
BrazenSigilos@ttrpg.network · 33 pts · 281d
Turns out humans are one of those animals that don't breed well in captivity, and alot of us are starting to realize we're captives.
HexesofVexes@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 280d
Scientific reproduction, not sexual reproduction XD
BrazenSigilos@ttrpg.network · 1 pts · 279d
Fair, but I think given the intention of the study being discussed, my comment is still pretty valid. 😁
whoisearth@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 281d
There is no reproduction crisis. There may be challenges where you live, but, well...
Waves hand in general direction of Africa
HexesofVexes@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 280d
Scientific reproduction, as in reproduction of a study XD
whoisearth@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 280d
Omg LOL
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de · 6 pts · 280d
i didn't get it either lol
LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 280d
I mean... a daiquiri-fueled government-funded cruise would absolutely do both kinds of reproduction
buttnugget@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 280d
Honestly, Africans are superior to all others.
whoisearth@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 280d
I mean the women are 😍
hactar42@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 280d
I bet you could sell it as a reality TV show
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 280d
SethTaylor@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 281d
I seem to remember a similar experiment called Big Brother?
BanMe@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 280d
for real, today Sex Raft would have 55 seasons and 3 spinoffs.
Zoomboingding@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 280d
There's literally a 1 season series called Survive The Raft in 2023 as an homage to the original experiment.
thenextguy@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 281d
Sounds like a bit of Mark Twain…
Adderbox76@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 281d
It was the seventies.
MnemonicBump@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 281d
There's an HBO Max original reality series called The Raft that sets out to "replicate" this "experiment" while injecting the usually reality competition faire. It's a pretty fun watch
xxce2AAb@feddit.dk · 8 pts · 281d
It did however produce four awkwardly conceived children of rather mixed heritage and inconsistent religious convictions.
Pacrat173@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 281d
Sounds like a fever dream but it’s true
Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 281d
If you think this is wild, check out: Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia https://share.google/tnvESUZQoYk8JH46l
syaochan@feddit.it · 9 pts · 281d
Humana@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 280d
After watching this, and also studying the Stanford experiment. It seems to me the source of much human conflict isn't sex like the sociologist hypothesized, but class structures. But he seemed to refuse to even entrain that possibility.
FaceDeer@fedia.io · 5 pts · 281d
"If we knew what we were doing it wouldn't be an experiment, would it?"
someguy3@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 281d
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 280d
lagoon8622@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 281d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acali