Maybe the AI will be less salty than the foreign actors. If I had to chose, Id go with AI. AI is a product that needs to be reliable if it is to succeed. Foreign actors hate my guts for exsisting.
AI is programmed by foreign actors. And on top of that it trains you not to think for yourself and believe what you read. It shuts down critical thought and makes you even easier to manipulate.
And they can choose what data to use to train it. It trains you to rely on it instead of thinking for yourself. Once you rely on it they enshittify and subvert it. It's dangerous to rely on a source of information solely controlled by a billionaire with ulterior motives.
Look at what Google has become. Or the news/media industry. Get your information from trustworthy sources. AI is not.
"Being afraid of what you don't understand is completely reasonable"
No it isn't... It's common, but not reasonable, and it's a big factor in so much bad about humanity. We need to teach people to specifically NOT be afraid of stuff they don't understand and instead learn more about that those things, and to never have strong opinions (which includes fear) about things they know nothing or little about.
Being afraid of what you dont understand is instilled to us by our own evolution. We lived tens of thousands of years in a state where unfamiliar berry or strange animal could mean death.
But you are right. School system svould be better in explaining what vaccines do and how they work and society should be better shooting misinformation down.
Also instead of ridiculing the antivacciners people should try to be polite and try to help them understand what vaccines are. Being hostile or condesending just makes people to withdraw in to their own safe belives
There's been a systematic undermining of public trust in health and safety instructions going on for decades.
Some of this distrust is earned as with Tuskegee, the bungled Anthrax vaccine, the Reagan Era response to the AIDS epidemic, scandals with weight loss drugs like Fen-phen and Redux, Oxycodone, etc.
But to no-sell skepticism as just "you're a little baby who is scared of needles" really under plays the shift in attitude nationally. We used to be a country that whole heartedly embraced a preventative for small pox, polio, and influenza. Now we're more terrified of kids getting the shot that gives you bad grades in school than getting measels.
There’s been a systematic undermining of public trust in health and safety instructions going on for decades.
A lot of it perpetrated by those very industries themselves. It's the natural consequence of letting every facet of societal motivation be dictated by profit maximization.
Like I said in another comment, I think what the antivaxers are incapable of understanding and expressing is that they are not actually questioning the science, they are questioning the health care industry and the systems meant to keep them honest. And in that I would agree with them, if only they were able to articulate it.
I think what the antivaxers are incapable of understanding and expressing is that they are not actually questioning the science, they are questioning the health care industry and the systems meant to keep them honest.
A lot of the opposition to vaccination reads like fad diets and self-help trends from 20 or 30 years ago. You can prevent autism by fumbles around playing Motzart to your baby in utero? Meditating during Yoga? Eating chocolate? Pick your Oprah-sponsored poison.
But, like, why are we seeing a fixation on a proven medical treatment and not some generic "don't let your kids eat jelly beans" or "do headstands to get the blood flowing to the brain" hookum?
I think that's where you get to people really running afoul of an increasingly dysfunctional health media ecosystem. One whose reputation is bloated with empty promises about The Perfect Cancer / Alzheimer's Cure or Living Forever With Blood Transfusions. And then it's colliding with an actual system that just seems to throw enormous bills at you for pain killers and palliative care.
On the one end, there's supposed to be a recipe for perfect health if you have enough money. On the other, I can get a flu shot and still get the flu? How unfair.
America doesn't just do this domestically. They have interfered in other nations public health perceptions as well. The CIA undermined polio vaccination programs in Pakistan when global eradication actually seemed possible.
They do. It's just tied up in the private sector. Tons of quackery on American TV and in news journals. Everything from "Head On, Apply Directly to The Forehead" to Dr Oz shilling ginseng as a panacea to the social media conspiracies about MedBeds that Trump himself retweeted.
The CIA undermined polio vaccination programs in Pakistan when global eradication actually seemed possible.
This was reported for misinformation but no counter information was given. I'm more likely to delete this whole post for being political than to pick a side when few people are giving sources.
We used to be a country that whole heartedly embraced a preventative for small pox, polio, and influenza
Yea, no... you got a very rosy image of history in your mind. There were massive protests and constant public pushback against vaccines for as long as vaccines have existed.
The fight for widespread adoption of vaccination has been rough fought against the tides of the confidently ignorant who let their irrational emotions control them.
There were massive protests and constant public pushback against vaccines for as long as vaccines have existed.
There were a handful of outspoken reactionary groups in the early 19th century who registered outsized alarm. But when you look at the data, the rapid decline in smallpox over the century was the direct result of the success of inoculation domestically. By 1898, the mandatory imposition of vaccinations was functionally unnecessary, due to the near complete eradication of the disease on the island. People were - by and large - more than happy to undergo inoculation at a level that provided herd immunity.
The fight for widespread adoption of vaccination has been rough fought against the tides of the confidently ignorant who let their irrational emotions control them.
Confident ignorance has been as much a benefit to vaccine campaigns as an opposition to it. People are, by and large, trusting and appreciative of advancements in medical science, especially when they are subject to regular and repeated trauma from a chronic malady.
Quackery succeeds on this sense of naive desperation. Vaccination does, too (with the added benefit that it actually works). A straightforward solution to an immediate problem is an easy sell.
The real detriment to vaccination policy is its own success. Once you've systematically eliminated a disease, the social memory of the disease's consequences fades through generations. People aren't afraid of Polio because they don't have a President in a wheelchair who fell victim to it. People aren't afraid of measles because they've never experienced it, or had to care for children suffering from the disease.
The rapid adoption of prophylactics in the sex work community comes from people who are regularly faced with the threat of STIs, both personally and in their peer groups. People with little direct or indirect exposure to recreational sex are a much harder sell. And so we see STIs flood through religiously insular communities (ex. the sudden surge in Syphilis in Salt Lake City) that had historically shown very low rates of incidence.
This tends to set off a rebalancing of behaviors, as the community rapidly adopts the techniques for prevention. When news of an outbreak spreads, vaccine hesitancy collapses in its wake
It was put there by science-denying troglodytes like yourself trying to drag civilization back into the Dark Ages. Enjoy your blood-letting and miasma treatments, don't forget your nightly mercury applications.
If bloodletting isn't your thing, maybe you'd prefer a milk transfusion. They've made incredible advancements in trepanation if that's more your speed. Have you tried sacrificing a goat to guarantee good health? I hear it can be really effective, just make sure you pick an in-network deity.
You feel angry. Think about why you need to project your anger onto others. Is it something you naturally do, or do scientific topics tend to stir up resentment in you?
(May I suggest being a bit funnier when rage baiting if thats what youre doing? Can't tell, could also just be a very silly goose)
Not really on any side here, nor am I saying mean things either! Was just hoping you'd end up being funny instead of trite but expectations were a bit too high on my end. Have a good one, hope i see you improved one day :)
Ironic that the people with the most predictable responses that perfectly match lies from propaganda campaigns then accuse others of not being able to think for themselves.
You adopted the entire anti-health position wholesale with no critical thinking, and now you're assuming everybody else is like you?
What I really dislike is the parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, because big pharma/nature best/other insane arguments, but then take them to an ER when they inevitably get that preventable disease. For fuck's sake, stay consistent. If you don't vaccinate, do not go to the hospital later.
Which is why we have decades of medical science that has gone to great lengths to discover these things. They can't be seen by the naked eye but they can be seen with a strong enough microscope. We know they exist and we know what they cause. We know how to prevent that from happening.
Yet these mouth breathing troglodytes have been conned into distrusting science on a fundamental level.
Says the twit regurgitating Fox News propaganda with absolutely no basis in fact, no sources, no data, nothing. Go find some credible primary sources for your horseshit - you'll see there are none.
No one is talking about the "talking heads on TV". I'm talking about scientific institutions that have dedicated their entire existence to studying these things.
If you're actually smart, you don't trust the way you feel because human feeling and intuition is heavily flawed and prone to fallacy unless you have extensive education on a specific subject and even then you still don't trust it unless you can back it up with evidence.
You trust institutions of authority that have demonstrably shown themselves to be correct with decades of empirically backed evidence and study.
Also, you remember that scene from 1984 where the hero was being tortured? He was told over and over to never trust himself and to only trust the state.
Wow, so not only are you just completely stupid but you also completely lack even a semblance of media literacy.
You do know that scientific institutions and the state are two completely different entities, right? Don't answer, that was rhetorical, we all know you don't know a goddamn thing.
For the purposes of my point the difference doesn't matter. Both are offering themselves as authoritative truth. Both are advising the suppression of personal truth in favor of that authority.
If you only use secondary and tertiary sources and never bother to look into the primary sources of information then you're incredibly ignorant.
Fuck off, delusional moron. You are a walking ball of fallacy and Dunning-Kruger. It is clear how sorely lacking you are in education. Spoiled rotten idiot who has lived a life of relative safety thanks to the very science you try to dismiss.
Da fuck do you think you're doing when you're distrusting experts from all over the world and specifically only trusting a small number of serial liars who are known to deliberately hurt people for fun?
once they get diptheria, wooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, as adults they will be even more scared. also you dont want chickenpox as an adult either.
we've been begging for the shingles vaccine for years now. they won't even let us pay out-of-pocket. we're five years "too young" despite both my wife and i having already had shingles.
I get you are pissed, but shingles generally is not contagious (exept for people who havent had chickenpox), nor dangerous (for healthy people), so i get that its pretty low on the priority lists.
Alltough if its lasted that long i would be worried why. Getting shingles usually is telltale sign for weakened immunity system, or mark off high stress and both of those are bad things.
Will they, though? I mean, the people who directly contract it might realize some regret and the error of their choices, some will be like smokers dying of emphysema that just keep smoking. Nothing will change them. The worst will be the kids that die, they never had a say in their medical treatment. There should be a lot of regret from the parents, but as we’ve seen, there’s plenty of stubbornness and mental gymnastics even then.
What I think antivaxers can't articulate is that what they don't actually trust is the health care industry, not the science behind vaccines themselves.
Which would be a valid concern, but that is not what they are saying.
You can trust medical science yet don't trust the providers, history is rife with examples of big business endangering the public for higher profit margins.
They know that American healthcare providers in the past experimented on blacks and other PoC without telling them and they don’t want it done to them now that we’ve pushed to make everyone equal under the law.
This is why they’re so scared of equality as well - we’re all game for the unethical experimentation and exploitation of some of us aren’t in the protected class.
To really break the programming we need to get through that those lines are drawn on class, not on race as they appear, and that no class of divine human exists.
Yep, this, my mom doesn't trust doctors. Apparantly, according to her, doctors in PRC was corrupt and always try to extort as much money as possible by doing "unnecessary 'treatments'", according to her.
She told me that both my older brother and I were both C-Section and like she doubted if it was even necessary, she believed that the doctors were just trying to make extra money because surgery costed more... but she had no choice but go along with it... because she had no idea if the fetus (aka: me and my older brother) were at risk.
As for vaccines... government policy... I guess both the collectivist society and pressure from government
US Government definitely required vaccination records before giving us immigration visas...
Its kinda funny, does the currnt admin allow immigrants without vaccinations? Or make it stricter to make immigration harder?
Women who have been through childbirth have certainly earned the right to be skeptical of doctors/ medicine. Women are still being mistreated and discounted in hospitals today, especially women of color. You have to get lucky to get nurses and doctors who treat your body as worthy of care, and you as worthy of belief and autonomy.
If you're an American, having deep seated mistrust and skepticism of the medical establishment, pharma, and government is 1000% justifiable. Every one of these institutions has exploited, abused, abandoned, and murdered people, all in the name of public health.
As a person who grew up in poverty, the idea of trusting doctors and medical authorities is just as ridiculous as trusting the police.
Assuming that social problems are the sum of individuals making dumb choices is an easy shortcut that not only eliminates the discomfort of thinking about the issue, but has the added benefit to implying that you're superior.
this is why we need to educate people. it does require a certain level of trust in the system to accept a shot will prevent your kid from dying of measles or whooping cough. a system that also conducted the heinous Tuskegee Syphilis Study, then never held those same criminals or the decision makers accountable for their crimes.
governments do thousands of things; not every single one is predicated on evil intentions, many, probably most, are for the good of their people. think running water and sewage. think power and roads.
sometimes they go fuckbrained. which is why we need whistleblowers, accountability, CONSEQUENCES, etc.
How is academia totally separate? I get how the opiate crisis is purely big Pharma exploiting people for profit, but the tuskeegee experiments were research. Isn't that medicine and academia?
Frankly, I think that's it. When I got shots, my parents would constantly remind me of how much it would hurt and laugh at me over my fear. I'm still scared of needles nowadays, even if by all objective measures they really don't hurt at all
Psychology is weird and the brain holds on to a lot of baggage. The brain is a very irrational and illogical meat computer, after all. It doesn't care about objective reality, only our perception of it.
my brother is a 45 , socially he acts like a 8 year old all the time. Of course he worships trumps and refuses to get vaccinated ( even telling my elderly mom to not get the flu and covid shot) . This is why I only see him one day out of the year, and that will turn to Zero days of any time when my mom dies and he has no reason to come over for one day a year.
I've had some really bad experiences in the past as well including passing out and nausea. Luckily at least for smaller needles like vaccines/dental work I no longer suffer from that. I still lay down if blood is being drawn.
It took a long time, but I think the dentist giving me some sedatives for the needles helped me get more comfortable with it since I knew they helped, and eventually, I was able to try without and it was hard but it did help, and it just got easier from there.
It still sucks, but it's manageable now.
If you struggle at the dentist like I did, maybe that's an option if you need work done and a path forward.
It's a shame that's not an option typically offered for other needles. I bet it could help people get vaccines if it was offered.
never had to at the dentist and luckily the doctors said i need no more vaccines (unless we get another covid kinda deal or i travel to a country with foreign illnesses) so its not something i have to worry about for a while
thinking about it makes me feel a little light headed though, and normally i enjoy having phantom sense for stuff like asmr and vr but its also a curse when i think about needles and i can feel one in my arm where they do the vaccines. not fun
I think its worth pointing out that needing a vaccine is different than getting and benefiting from a vaccine.
Seasonal Flu and Covid vaccines are still beneficial, so while you don't need any, if there is a way to beat the phobia, you can still benefit.
It's not likely that anyone is going to offer you something like Xanax or Ativan for a yearly flu shot, but maybe your Dr would knowing your circumstances, and that could be a slow process to maybe beating it by getting some successful years behind you using that method?
do people like, know their doctors like that? its always just been get a letter saying get vaccinated, we book, and its some random NHS place and a doctor ive never seen
I'm only scared of vaccines because they're delivered via a needle. At this point I really shouldn't be acted of needles any more after injecting myself every week for ages, but for some reason I am 🤷♀️
I'm also a needle-weenie. I tell a different nurse each time and we joke about it -- despite getting like 9 shots in one day in Basic. Then I wince a bit as I get the shot, put my stereotypically plaid coat back on and off I go.
It's a lack of education. I mean, sure, there do be a lot of fucking morons around, but even morons can learn if there is a proper and easily accessible means of doing so. Just having the Internet is not enough, you have to be taught how to learn, and what, and that still requires humans laying it out for you over time, over a long long time.
I disagree. While it’s frustrating that people believe politicians and talk show hosts over scientists, it’s reasonable to fear something you don’t understand. What’s immature is a lack of critical thinking which much of the population seems to exhibit by choosing to listen to others or, in doing fact finding, allow for confirmation bias.
This statement is not helpful. If we’re looking to increase the number of people getting vaccinated, shame or embarrassment will likely lower that number further. People have a fear of making the wrong decision. If you share with them that you’ve been vaccinated and leave it at that, that’s someone real who has contradicted the narrative they subscribe to. If they respect you as a role model, they may change their behavior.
There are risks involved with vaccines. These are usually low and can be mitigated or decreased severely. E.g. don’t run a marathon the same day you get a COVID-19 shot.
Small world. A cousin of mine had a negative reaction soon after getting the 2nd dose of Pfizer. Got rushed to the hospital in the middle of the night from what I heard, spent long time in ICU, got their parents worried, they were talking about it on the wechat group. Sent a wave of panic throught the entire friend circle.
Imagine having one of the people you know IRL having a bad reaction to the vaccine.
Black people have every reason to be where I live due to the Tuskegee experiments. Even black doctors have said they have to reason themselves into getting the covid vaccine due to the fears it caused.
Let's be honest, its the covid vax being rushed to market and the politics of it that made this happen. Before that it was an issue with total idiots, but now I have "normal" family members not vaxing their children for things eradicated 50 years ago.
I can totally see the skepticism on the covid vax. You really cant trust anything. Lets not pretend the covid vax didnt have issues (and we plebs dont really know for sure how many bad side effects there are/were yet. No matter what you think). And in my opinion government should not control your body. However these people not getting children vaccinated for measles are just absolute idiots.
And now people who think everything is black and white can downvote me to hell!
Every pre-COVID representation of global pandemic: scientists discover a vaccine, everyone vaccinates and lives happily ever after
Real pandemic: people chicken out, start obsessing over 1 in 10000 side effects (vs, you know, a 1 in 50 chance to die of COVID-19 at the time) and then forever tell the story of "it's not tested enough yet".
You know what also constantly changes and cannot be tested for decades? Every. Single. Virus. Your flu vaccine is also not tested for side effects forever, because the virus changes all the time.
Before rolling COVID vaccines out, we were very damn sure they work and won't wreak havoc on you. But as people suddenly decided to go anti-vax, government had to get more assertive, for any vaccine works best when most people are vaccinated. You could normally self-isolate and not take vaccines, though, so it's up to you, the government's concern is that you don't spread this thing further, straining medical system that was already under a heavy load.
Disclaimer: not a medical professional. Had four COVID-19 vaccines though, including Sputnik-V, the very first one.
On the death rate: in some countries, mortality rate went as high as 5%. To be fair, though, this only takes confirmed cases into account, leaving behind those who never reported a case, mostly because it went milder.
On a personal note, my mother lost two colleagues to it, and I lost an acquaintance. All confirmed COVID deaths.
I did get COVID-19 once. It went easy though, and I rapidly recovered after a mild fatigue and headache without long-term consequences. Some of the people I know had long-term effects, like warped smell, chronic fatigie, etc. One got it before vaccines rolled out, and two decided not to vaccinate. None of the vaccinated folks I know had something of this magnitude.
Vaccine is not a protection from infection. It's a pre-training program for an immune system to quickly beat the hell out of the disease before it gets nasty (and spreads violently).
Sad you got side effects, and I understand how it changes your perception on the matter. Personally, my only bad experience is having weakness in the arm for the first two days after the very first vaccine dose. In any case, I hope it will pass rather soon!
What kind of workplace? Did they have a reason for masks not being enough? Because I know a few scenarios where masking wouldn't solve the entire problem
Also, most workplaces that implemented their own requirements was not doing it "on behalf of the government" but because they didn't want their workers to get sick and didn't want liability for sick customers
It quickly gets more complicated when it affects others.
Is it your bodily choice to smoke on the street? No, because others have to inhale it. Same idea - no one wants to breathe in your disease-causing microbes.
Depending on the country, it might be banned, and that's one obvious example I came with.
And, in my opinion, it must be, no matter what you smoke, tobacco or weed or something else. Why the hell should others inhale terrible chemicals just because you chose to?
Same, why should they be exposed to dangerous microbes just because you are reckless?
No one argues with that. But you know what also has side effects that are orders of magnitude more likely? Diseases.
Forcing people to is where I have the issue
I understand that mandatory policies are to be reviewed with caution, and forcing people to do something that has inherent risks should normally be avoided. But here, by not taking a vaccine, you simply multiply and outsource the risk elsewhere, putting others in danger. If your decisions around vaccination would only hurt you, government would have no business dictating you what to do - yet, someone's refusal to vaccinate has killed someone else - say, immunodeficient person or a child who couldn't get vaccinated.
Sometimes we desperately need collective action, so much so that it may be mandated. This is one of such cases. Yes, it would be cool to have more time and do even more testing, to refine the preparations, etc. But when people die by millions, you're on a short timer.
COVID-19 has demonstrated a level of deadly disorganization in the face of a global crisis. People "mind their own business" so much that it kills others, with governments struggling to keep everyone looking in the same productive direction.
That would be good, yes. A more relaxed approach to vaccination has caused plethora of public health problems.
Side effects tend to get less likely when we get more experience working with vaccines of a certain type. Modern coronavirus vaccines are better and safer than the first ones already, and flu ones have been around for so long that making a new vaccine very safe is no issue.
Meanwhile, side effects caused by repeated exposure to the disease may compound very badly.
It's different from prior vaccines. So much so that they changed the definition for vaccine so the new one would fit it.
No, the definition of vaccine has not changed. I'm assuming you're attempting to quote this article, but through the lens of Fox News propaganda: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8656271/ If you read the publication (I know, that'll be difficult for you), it clearly states that there was a prior need that was made apparent to ensure that various groups in the scientific community, as well as laypeople, to have a consistent definition of various terms. However, "Vaccine" as defined, has always meant using methods to train the body how to respond to infection without causing infection.
It's being pushed by untrustworthy entities.
Source?
It's got serious side-effects.
What's "It's"? I'm assuming you're talking about Hydroxychlorine? That definitely has serious side effects. If you're talking about the covid vaccines?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X24001270 All but a few observed side effects were above the baseline expected conditions for a given population. The one you're probably thinking of is myocarditis, because it was one that was higher than expected. It's "serious", but not necessarily life threatening. Also, it's at a rate of about 3 people per 100,000, and unvaccinated people who caught covid were 5x more likely to experience it compared to vaccinated in any condition.
It is being pushed by the biggest propaganda campaign I ever saw. It really is impressive, and scary, to see the media and the public so in-synch.
I can tell a lot of effort went into this but the person you are talking to clearly has no ability to recognize empirical evidence. They are utterly guided by their own uneducated feelings and nothing will convince them otherwise. I applaud you on your efforts though. Lot of good information here.
I don't disagree, they're an incredibly propagandized individual, but engaging in discussions like that gives me practice for engaging in discussions with similarly propagandized people I know IRL. It's helped me convert at least one person from an anti-vax conservative into a moderate at least leftist.
I'm too autistic to engage in these discussions with people because I cannot comprehend how they can just completely ignore irrefutable data just because they don't feel that it is correct. It utterly baffled me that people can be so controlled by their emotions to the point of just straight up rejecting reality.
Like, I get it. I understand it on a psychological level and how they are just victims of their own innate human psychology but I for the life of me cannot have a discussion with these people about it because they just do not listen nor care about facts and I have no patience to dance around it for the sake of protecting their fragile egos.
I've given up. I don't have it in me anymore to keep trying. Never was able to get anyone back to reality after they went deep into it. Friends and family. It's a terrible damn problem. Basically a big chunk of society needs to be deprogrammed and I haven't seen anything that will do the trick.
Not that I'm in any way disparaging your efforts. Good luck and god speed. Maybe you'll find some sort of magic that will flip the switch. You'd be a motherfucking hero, no irony.
Yes, you know the truth. And everybody around you knows the truth. And all of the right authorities agree with you. And this is all completely logical, obvious, right and scientific. And anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong, bad and insane.
There aren't "reasons" people are afraid of vaccines. The irrational fear comes first, and then people go looking for rationalizations like yours to explain the feelings they already have.
I have over my life discovered many such ways I do that kind of thing, which leads me to believe there may still be some I am not aware of. But I think I have addressed any that I knew about.
What was your definition of vaccine? Vaccines have never 100% prevented people from contracting a virus. A virus is a living thing that once it enters your body and body has to react. If your body doesn't recognize it is bad, it may ignore it and allow it to replicate and spread without any resistance. If your body knows it is bad, it starts to put up a resistance and fight it soon as it sees it. Both bodies "contracted the virus" but the one who got a vaccine knows when it sees it to start working against it sooner; hopefully preventing it from spreading to much or causing any serious symptoms.
I like to think of it like making the opposition wear a red shirt. When you see a red shirt, you know it's an invader, without the vaccine, you don't know what to look for, so you let the red shirt population grow and spread until you notice that the red shirts are causing problems, then you recognize them as an invader, but they are spread throughout the body and ingrained into the population. A lot more opposition... Thus the battle isn't as quickly won, or if unlucky, the damages get to severe before being able to clear out all the invaders, and you die.
Super serious side effects which is why it was safely administered to 70% of the globe. Side effects so serious you don't know a single person with a verifiable case! That fear mongering worked before billions of people received the vaccine 5 years ago. Someone update your bot.
Without context, I'm going to guess you mean the Covid vaccine.
It’s different from prior vaccines.
If you're taking about the mRNA vaccines, then you are partially right, but there is a non-mRNA option you can get in the US.
So much so that they changed the definition for vaccine so the new one would fit it.
Source? I'm also curious to get your definition of what a vaccine is.
It’s being pushed by untrustworthy entities.
It's also being "pushed" by multiple world-class regulatory organizations with millions of hours of experience in testing the efficacy and safety of all kinds of medicine.
It’s got serious side-effects.
Any and every kind of medical procedure can have serious side effects. Clearly you've never read the waiver and info page for any vaccine you've received. There is a mile of potential issues, along with a guide on what to do if you experience certain symptoms, and resources for you to reachout to if you believe you are having an adverse reaction to your shot. Vaccines are considered based on the chance that you will have an adverse reaction, and the severity of that reaction, and ultimately the mRNA vaccines do not rise above the risk threshold for other "conventional" vaccines.
It is being pushed by the biggest propaganda campaign I ever saw. It really is impressive, and scary, to see the media and the public so in-synch.
This is a wakeup call to let you know that you're an oppositional defiant luddite who has been scared by reknowned liars and conspiracy theorists. Also, you should listen to your wife more, she's right most of the time.
I'm too lazy to provide sources at the moment. Maybe peruse this thread.
I think that you are a true believer in the midst of a society filled with true believers. As incapable of controlling the vector of your thoughts as a pebble embedded in a glacier. As certain of the truth as a medieval zealot. If the tv told you to cut off your feet you'd do it today and chuckle at what fools those other guys are. No thanks.
You'd be the first to describe me as a "true believer". I'm about as skeptical as it gets, but being skeptical does not mean "disagree with everything on principle" it means "everything needs to have a standard of evidence" and right now, claiming that mRNA vaccines are dangerous and ineffective does not have a peer reviewed consensus amongst medical experts. In lieu of having my own lab, and the time and funding to run my own study and get it peer reviewed (something I have neither the funds, time, nor expertise to do) I must rely on experts in the subject who are respected in their relevant fields.
You write like a seminary school dropout with a 3rd grade understanding of biology fishing for a fox news daytime correspondent position.
You could trust the evidence of your own senses
Very funny you mention that, because your own senses aren't worth diddly-squat in the scientific world. It's what you would call "anecdotal evidence"... Barely better than a secondhand recounting of a Facebook post. It's especially funny to put human senses on a pedestal when communicating to someone who wears corrective lenses. Do you even know what your senses are? It's mostly chemical/electrical impulses made by bits of meat, sent along bundles of meat to a meat-based signal processor, which interperts those signals and makes it available to other parts of your meatiness to react to. I don't trust my senses, because what I have to sense with is made to see food, hear predators, and smell mates. My senses are wholly insufficient to see individual cells, let alone the proteins that make them up, and the nucleic acids that code for those proteins. My fingers lack the precision to detect the shape and size of a virus. You can't rely on your eyes for that you need a microscope. You can't measure tiny distance by touch, you need a micrometer. I don't trust my senses, but I have confidence in the steel, glass and repeatable precision of a machine.
...wait till you’re actually sick before reaching for the medicine.
Seems like you are the kind of person who waits for a car crash before reaching for their seatbelt. Frankly, the world's is better off it this is true.
It really is funny, because there is no shortage of optical and auditory illusions. Hundreds of thousands of people claim to have seen ghosts, or flying saucers, or bigfoot, but none of those things has been confirmed to exist. Your senses do lie to you, and they lie a lot. Pilots are trained to rely on their instruments when flying, because your inner ear evolved to keep you upright when walking and running, and not to tell you which way is up in a tumbling aircraft. Your eyes evolved to spot food and predators, but even our advanced human eyes fail to discern the ocean from the sky, and no small number of experienced pilots have crashed because they didn't trust the artificial horizon in their airplane.
169 Comments
SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world · 78 pts · 265d
Most people don’t understand vaccines and being afraid of what you don’t understand is completely reasonable.
When you have influencers feeding on that fear and making it grow then it becomes an issue.
QuarterSwede@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 265d
Add to that we’re constantly being lied to it’s hard to know what the truth is and what isn’t unless you deeply research a topic, and honestly:
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world · 29 pts · 265d
Most vaccine hesitant people use Facebook or YouTube to research which compounds the problem.
Typhoon@lemmy.ca · 21 pts · 265d
This is why people using biased AI to ask questions terrifies me.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -11 pts · 265d
Maybe the AI will be less salty than the foreign actors. If I had to chose, Id go with AI. AI is a product that needs to be reliable if it is to succeed. Foreign actors hate my guts for exsisting.
Typhoon@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 265d
AI is programmed by foreign actors. And on top of that it trains you not to think for yourself and believe what you read. It shuts down critical thought and makes you even easier to manipulate.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -8 pts · 265d
AI isn't programmed its trained. Just look at all the trouble Elon is having trying to red pill grok.
Typhoon@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 265d
And they can choose what data to use to train it. It trains you to rely on it instead of thinking for yourself. Once you rely on it they enshittify and subvert it. It's dangerous to rely on a source of information solely controlled by a billionaire with ulterior motives.
Look at what Google has become. Or the news/media industry. Get your information from trustworthy sources. AI is not.
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world · 2 pts · 265d
They’re doing a shit poor job of making it reliable so far.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -5 pts · 265d
Meh, its an emerging technology
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world · 3 pts · 265d
It’s a way of using mass amounts of power to make billionaires richer I don’t think it’ll ever be reliable.
M137@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 265d
"Being afraid of what you don't understand is completely reasonable"
No it isn't... It's common, but not reasonable, and it's a big factor in so much bad about humanity. We need to teach people to specifically NOT be afraid of stuff they don't understand and instead learn more about that those things, and to never have strong opinions (which includes fear) about things they know nothing or little about.
MrFinnbean@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 264d
Being afraid of what you dont understand is instilled to us by our own evolution. We lived tens of thousands of years in a state where unfamiliar berry or strange animal could mean death.
But you are right. School system svould be better in explaining what vaccines do and how they work and society should be better shooting misinformation down.
Also instead of ridiculing the antivacciners people should try to be polite and try to help them understand what vaccines are. Being hostile or condesending just makes people to withdraw in to their own safe belives
anomnom@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 265d
Na a bunch of them are actually afraid of the pointy needle.
Gear of medical debt comes up for some too, but since the covid vaccines were free they had to pretend they weren’t afraid of the needles instead.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 40 pts · 265d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study#Public_trust
There's been a systematic undermining of public trust in health and safety instructions going on for decades.
Some of this distrust is earned as with Tuskegee, the bungled Anthrax vaccine, the Reagan Era response to the AIDS epidemic, scandals with weight loss drugs like Fen-phen and Redux, Oxycodone, etc.
Some of it is purely manufactured, with the CIA-sponsored agitation against the Chinese COVID vaccine being a major font of modern day anti-vax Truther Lore.
But to no-sell skepticism as just "you're a little baby who is scared of needles" really under plays the shift in attitude nationally. We used to be a country that whole heartedly embraced a preventative for small pox, polio, and influenza. Now we're more terrified of kids getting the shot that gives you bad grades in school than getting measels.
tomiant@piefed.social · 14 pts · 265d
A lot of it perpetrated by those very industries themselves. It's the natural consequence of letting every facet of societal motivation be dictated by profit maximization.
Like I said in another comment, I think what the antivaxers are incapable of understanding and expressing is that they are not actually questioning the science, they are questioning the health care industry and the systems meant to keep them honest. And in that I would agree with them, if only they were able to articulate it.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 265d
A lot of the opposition to vaccination reads like fad diets and self-help trends from 20 or 30 years ago. You can prevent autism by fumbles around playing Motzart to your baby in utero? Meditating during Yoga? Eating chocolate? Pick your Oprah-sponsored poison.
But, like, why are we seeing a fixation on a proven medical treatment and not some generic "don't let your kids eat jelly beans" or "do headstands to get the blood flowing to the brain" hookum?
I think that's where you get to people really running afoul of an increasingly dysfunctional health media ecosystem. One whose reputation is bloated with empty promises about The Perfect Cancer / Alzheimer's Cure or Living Forever With Blood Transfusions. And then it's colliding with an actual system that just seems to throw enormous bills at you for pain killers and palliative care.
On the one end, there's supposed to be a recipe for perfect health if you have enough money. On the other, I can get a flu shot and still get the flu? How unfair.
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 265d
America doesn't just do this domestically. They have interfered in other nations public health perceptions as well. The CIA undermined polio vaccination programs in Pakistan when global eradication actually seemed possible.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 264d
They do. It's just tied up in the private sector. Tons of quackery on American TV and in news journals. Everything from "Head On, Apply Directly to The Forehead" to Dr Oz shilling ginseng as a panacea to the social media conspiracies about MedBeds that Trump himself retweeted.
Can't let the wrong kind of people benefit
vatlark@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 262d
This was reported for misinformation but no counter information was given. I'm more likely to delete this whole post for being political than to pick a side when few people are giving sources.
Crankenstein@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 264d
Yea, no... you got a very rosy image of history in your mind. There were massive protests and constant public pushback against vaccines for as long as vaccines have existed.
https://historyofvaccines.org/vaccines-101/misconceptions-about-vaccines/history-anti-vaccination-movements
The fight for widespread adoption of vaccination has been rough fought against the tides of the confidently ignorant who let their irrational emotions control them.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
There were a handful of outspoken reactionary groups in the early 19th century who registered outsized alarm. But when you look at the data, the rapid decline in smallpox over the century was the direct result of the success of inoculation domestically. By 1898, the mandatory imposition of vaccinations was functionally unnecessary, due to the near complete eradication of the disease on the island. People were - by and large - more than happy to undergo inoculation at a level that provided herd immunity.
Confident ignorance has been as much a benefit to vaccine campaigns as an opposition to it. People are, by and large, trusting and appreciative of advancements in medical science, especially when they are subject to regular and repeated trauma from a chronic malady.
Quackery succeeds on this sense of naive desperation. Vaccination does, too (with the added benefit that it actually works). A straightforward solution to an immediate problem is an easy sell.
The real detriment to vaccination policy is its own success. Once you've systematically eliminated a disease, the social memory of the disease's consequences fades through generations. People aren't afraid of Polio because they don't have a President in a wheelchair who fell victim to it. People aren't afraid of measles because they've never experienced it, or had to care for children suffering from the disease.
The rapid adoption of prophylactics in the sex work community comes from people who are regularly faced with the threat of STIs, both personally and in their peer groups. People with little direct or indirect exposure to recreational sex are a much harder sell. And so we see STIs flood through religiously insular communities (ex. the sudden surge in Syphilis in Salt Lake City) that had historically shown very low rates of incidence.
This tends to set off a rebalancing of behaviors, as the community rapidly adopts the techniques for prevention. When news of an outbreak spreads, vaccine hesitancy collapses in its wake
Etterra@discuss.online · 40 pts · 265d
What do you think the mask hating whiners are? They're toddlers with voting rights.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -31 pts · 264d
You feel angry. Think about why you feel angry. Is it something you came up with yourself or was it put there?
PapaStevesy@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 264d
It was put there by science-denying troglodytes like yourself trying to drag civilization back into the Dark Ages. Enjoy your blood-letting and miasma treatments, don't forget your nightly mercury applications.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -19 pts · 264d
You paint a very black-and-white cartoon
PapaStevesy@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 264d
If bloodletting isn't your thing, maybe you'd prefer a milk transfusion. They've made incredible advancements in trepanation if that's more your speed. Have you tried sacrificing a goat to guarantee good health? I hear it can be really effective, just make sure you pick an in-network deity.
Vanix@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 11 pts · 264d
You feel angry. Think about why you need to project your anger onto others. Is it something you naturally do, or do scientific topics tend to stir up resentment in you?
(May I suggest being a bit funnier when rage baiting if thats what youre doing? Can't tell, could also just be a very silly goose)
presoak@lazysoci.al · -20 pts · 264d
Well I'm not the one saying mean stuff, so yes, the rage is on your side.
Vanix@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 264d
Not really on any side here, nor am I saying mean things either! Was just hoping you'd end up being funny instead of trite but expectations were a bit too high on my end. Have a good one, hope i see you improved one day :)
Crankenstein@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 264d
Unfortunately, due to their lack of any humor I doubt they are a rage baiter and actually one of the many idiots who drink the Kool aid.
FosterMolasses@leminal.space · 2 pts · 263d
Oh no, you hurt their feelings with your scientific argument! Bad science! Bad-
Oh wait.
Facts don't care about your feelings...
Natanael@infosec.pub · 2 pts · 263d
Ironic that the people with the most predictable responses that perfectly match lies from propaganda campaigns then accuse others of not being able to think for themselves.
You adopted the entire anti-health position wholesale with no critical thinking, and now you're assuming everybody else is like you?
Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.ca · 33 pts · 265d
What I really dislike is the parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, because big pharma/nature best/other insane arguments, but then take them to an ER when they inevitably get that preventable disease. For fuck's sake, stay consistent. If you don't vaccinate, do not go to the hospital later.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 265d
Devil's Advocate: Being sick is an immediately visible problem; vaccinations... viruses are invisible and you don't see symtoms till its too late
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net · 16 pts · 265d
Which is why we have decades of medical science that has gone to great lengths to discover these things. They can't be seen by the naked eye but they can be seen with a strong enough microscope. We know they exist and we know what they cause. We know how to prevent that from happening.
Yet these mouth breathing troglodytes have been conned into distrusting science on a fundamental level.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -24 pts · 264d
Surely we are smart to trust the way we feel more than we trust a talking head on tv.
Omgpwnies@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 264d
Says the twit regurgitating Fox News propaganda with absolutely no basis in fact, no sources, no data, nothing. Go find some credible primary sources for your horseshit - you'll see there are none.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -20 pts · 264d
I don't watch fox news.
And there's that anger again. It's almost like somebody told you to get angry.
PapaStevesy@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 264d
Doesn't mean your talking points aren't the same.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net · 6 pts · 264d
No one is talking about the "talking heads on TV". I'm talking about scientific institutions that have dedicated their entire existence to studying these things.
If you're actually smart, you don't trust the way you feel because human feeling and intuition is heavily flawed and prone to fallacy unless you have extensive education on a specific subject and even then you still don't trust it unless you can back it up with evidence.
You trust institutions of authority that have demonstrably shown themselves to be correct with decades of empirically backed evidence and study.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -16 pts · 264d
Also, you remember that scene from 1984 where the hero was being tortured? He was told over and over to never trust himself and to only trust the state.
That's you.
Crankenstein@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 264d
Wow, so not only are you just completely stupid but you also completely lack even a semblance of media literacy.
You do know that scientific institutions and the state are two completely different entities, right? Don't answer, that was rhetorical, we all know you don't know a goddamn thing.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -9 pts · 264d
For the purposes of my point the difference doesn't matter. Both are offering themselves as authoritative truth. Both are advising the suppression of personal truth in favor of that authority.
(Now take a breath. Dang!)
presoak@lazysoci.al · -18 pts · 264d
The word from the "scientific institutions" arrives at your door in the form of, yes, a talking head. Speaking with great confidence like an AI.
I'll keep trusting myself, thanks. It has served me well so far.
When you find yourself agreeing with the mob, that's a good sign that you're under the influence.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 264d
If you only use secondary and tertiary sources and never bother to look into the primary sources of information then you're incredibly ignorant.
Fuck off, delusional moron. You are a walking ball of fallacy and Dunning-Kruger. It is clear how sorely lacking you are in education. Spoiled rotten idiot who has lived a life of relative safety thanks to the very science you try to dismiss.
GrammarPolice@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 264d
You're engaging with a ragebait account
presoak@lazysoci.al · -10 pts · 264d
There's the anger. That's what we inspire with our propaganda. Stop thinking and raaaaaaage!
Natanael@infosec.pub · 2 pts · 263d
Da fuck do you think you're doing when you're distrusting experts from all over the world and specifically only trusting a small number of serial liars who are known to deliberately hurt people for fun?
presoak@lazysoci.al · -17 pts · 264d
Some of us consider a narrative presented by the media to be more substantial than the way we feel. In fact such people might be in the majority.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 22 pts · 265d
once they get diptheria, wooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, as adults they will be even more scared. also you dont want chickenpox as an adult either.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 265d
I'm still pissed my insurance won't cover the shingles vax. Took over my right side and hurt like hell for, uh, six years now.
yyyesss@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 264d
we've been begging for the shingles vaccine for years now. they won't even let us pay out-of-pocket. we're five years "too young" despite both my wife and i having already had shingles.
ChexMax@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 264d
Too young? My sister got shingles in highschool! Anyone can get it.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 264d
congrats child. you're at least ten years younger than me
MrFinnbean@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 264d
I get you are pissed, but shingles generally is not contagious (exept for people who havent had chickenpox), nor dangerous (for healthy people), so i get that its pretty low on the priority lists.
Alltough if its lasted that long i would be worried why. Getting shingles usually is telltale sign for weakened immunity system, or mark off high stress and both of those are bad things.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 264d
Will they, though? I mean, the people who directly contract it might realize some regret and the error of their choices, some will be like smokers dying of emphysema that just keep smoking. Nothing will change them. The worst will be the kids that die, they never had a say in their medical treatment. There should be a lot of regret from the parents, but as we’ve seen, there’s plenty of stubbornness and mental gymnastics even then.
tomiant@piefed.social · 19 pts · 265d
What I think antivaxers can't articulate is that what they don't actually trust is the health care industry, not the science behind vaccines themselves.
Which would be a valid concern, but that is not what they are saying.
You can trust medical science yet don't trust the providers, history is rife with examples of big business endangering the public for higher profit margins.
4am@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 265d
They know that American healthcare providers in the past experimented on blacks and other PoC without telling them and they don’t want it done to them now that we’ve pushed to make everyone equal under the law.
This is why they’re so scared of equality as well - we’re all game for the unethical experimentation and exploitation of some of us aren’t in the protected class.
To really break the programming we need to get through that those lines are drawn on class, not on race as they appear, and that no class of divine human exists.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 265d
Yep, this, my mom doesn't trust doctors. Apparantly, according to her, doctors in PRC was corrupt and always try to extort as much money as possible by doing "unnecessary 'treatments'", according to her.
She told me that both my older brother and I were both C-Section and like she doubted if it was even necessary, she believed that the doctors were just trying to make extra money because surgery costed more... but she had no choice but go along with it... because she had no idea if the fetus (aka: me and my older brother) were at risk.
As for vaccines... government policy... I guess both the collectivist society and pressure from government
US Government definitely required vaccination records before giving us immigration visas...
Its kinda funny, does the currnt admin allow immigrants without vaccinations? Or make it stricter to make immigration harder?
[Insert 2 red button meme here]
ChexMax@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 264d
Women who have been through childbirth have certainly earned the right to be skeptical of doctors/ medicine. Women are still being mistreated and discounted in hospitals today, especially women of color. You have to get lucky to get nurses and doctors who treat your body as worthy of care, and you as worthy of belief and autonomy.
yesman@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 265d
If you're an American, having deep seated mistrust and skepticism of the medical establishment, pharma, and government is 1000% justifiable. Every one of these institutions has exploited, abused, abandoned, and murdered people, all in the name of public health.
As a person who grew up in poverty, the idea of trusting doctors and medical authorities is just as ridiculous as trusting the police.
Assuming that social problems are the sum of individuals making dumb choices is an easy shortcut that not only eliminates the discomfort of thinking about the issue, but has the added benefit to implying that you're superior.
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 265d
this is why we need to educate people. it does require a certain level of trust in the system to accept a shot will prevent your kid from dying of measles or whooping cough. a system that also conducted the heinous Tuskegee Syphilis Study, then never held those same criminals or the decision makers accountable for their crimes.
governments do thousands of things; not every single one is predicated on evil intentions, many, probably most, are for the good of their people. think running water and sewage. think power and roads.
sometimes they go fuckbrained. which is why we need whistleblowers, accountability, CONSEQUENCES, etc.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 264d
That mistrust erroneously extends to academia though, and they're more than happy to ignore the experts who aren't connected to industry
chunes@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 264d
ChexMax@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 264d
How is academia totally separate? I get how the opiate crisis is purely big Pharma exploiting people for profit, but the tuskeegee experiments were research. Isn't that medicine and academia?
Quokka@quokk.au · 15 pts · 265d
Being afraid of needles is fine though, right?
Apytele@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 265d
Contramuffin@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 264d
Frankly, I think that's it. When I got shots, my parents would constantly remind me of how much it would hurt and laugh at me over my fear. I'm still scared of needles nowadays, even if by all objective measures they really don't hurt at all
Crankenstein@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 264d
Psychology is weird and the brain holds on to a lot of baggage. The brain is a very irrational and illogical meat computer, after all. It doesn't care about objective reality, only our perception of it.
Lemminary@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 265d
I hope so. Irrational fears are really hard to control.
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 265d
There is reasons to be afraid of needles. Courage is not having no fear, its facing your fear.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 265d
I remember the nurses just belittling me when I was like 10 and like I was scared of needles...
Something something "boys need to be brave" or something
Themosthighstrange@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 265d
my brother is a 45 , socially he acts like a 8 year old all the time. Of course he worships trumps and refuses to get vaccinated ( even telling my elderly mom to not get the flu and covid shot) . This is why I only see him one day out of the year, and that will turn to Zero days of any time when my mom dies and he has no reason to come over for one day a year.
ollie@pawb.social · 11 pts · 265d
i dont have a problem with vaccines, theyre great and im glad they help people
but, recieving one is absolutely terrifying to be, due to some needle related trauma, and generally causes me to pass out or vomit :/
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 265d
Sounds like you may have a vasovagal reaction? My dad gets that too.
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 265d
I've had some really bad experiences in the past as well including passing out and nausea. Luckily at least for smaller needles like vaccines/dental work I no longer suffer from that. I still lay down if blood is being drawn.
It took a long time, but I think the dentist giving me some sedatives for the needles helped me get more comfortable with it since I knew they helped, and eventually, I was able to try without and it was hard but it did help, and it just got easier from there.
It still sucks, but it's manageable now.
If you struggle at the dentist like I did, maybe that's an option if you need work done and a path forward.
It's a shame that's not an option typically offered for other needles. I bet it could help people get vaccines if it was offered.
ollie@pawb.social · 1 pts · 265d
never had to at the dentist and luckily the doctors said i need no more vaccines (unless we get another covid kinda deal or i travel to a country with foreign illnesses) so its not something i have to worry about for a while
thinking about it makes me feel a little light headed though, and normally i enjoy having phantom sense for stuff like asmr and vr but its also a curse when i think about needles and i can feel one in my arm where they do the vaccines. not fun
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 265d
I think its worth pointing out that needing a vaccine is different than getting and benefiting from a vaccine.
Seasonal Flu and Covid vaccines are still beneficial, so while you don't need any, if there is a way to beat the phobia, you can still benefit.
It's not likely that anyone is going to offer you something like Xanax or Ativan for a yearly flu shot, but maybe your Dr would knowing your circumstances, and that could be a slow process to maybe beating it by getting some successful years behind you using that method?
ollie@pawb.social · 1 pts · 265d
do people like, know their doctors like that? its always just been get a letter saying get vaccinated, we book, and its some random NHS place and a doctor ive never seen
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 265d
Some people have relationships like that with their longtime family Dr, I never have though, nor do I even have one right now.
TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 265d
I'm only scared of vaccines because they're delivered via a needle. At this point I really shouldn't be acted of needles any more after injecting myself every week for ages, but for some reason I am 🤷♀️
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 265d
I'm also a needle-weenie. I tell a different nurse each time and we joke about it -- despite getting like 9 shots in one day in Basic. Then I wince a bit as I get the shot, put my stereotypically plaid coat back on and off I go.
DrFistington@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 265d
I think the correct term for adults who are afraid of them is 'bitch baby'
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 265d
I've found the best way to deal with a fear of needles is to scream slurs
vrek@programming.dev · 6 pts · 265d
Yeah because people afraid of vaccines never grow up...
tomiant@piefed.social · 2 pts · 265d
It's a lack of education. I mean, sure, there do be a lot of fucking morons around, but even morons can learn if there is a proper and easily accessible means of doing so. Just having the Internet is not enough, you have to be taught how to learn, and what, and that still requires humans laying it out for you over time, over a long long time.
DrunkAnRoot@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 265d
those blood test needles are the real scary shit
Boiglenoight@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 263d
I disagree. While it’s frustrating that people believe politicians and talk show hosts over scientists, it’s reasonable to fear something you don’t understand. What’s immature is a lack of critical thinking which much of the population seems to exhibit by choosing to listen to others or, in doing fact finding, allow for confirmation bias.
This statement is not helpful. If we’re looking to increase the number of people getting vaccinated, shame or embarrassment will likely lower that number further. People have a fear of making the wrong decision. If you share with them that you’ve been vaccinated and leave it at that, that’s someone real who has contradicted the narrative they subscribe to. If they respect you as a role model, they may change their behavior.
Samskara@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 265d
There are risks involved with vaccines. These are usually low and can be mitigated or decreased severely. E.g. don’t run a marathon the same day you get a COVID-19 shot.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 265d
Small world. A cousin of mine had a negative reaction soon after getting the 2nd dose of Pfizer. Got rushed to the hospital in the middle of the night from what I heard, spent long time in ICU, got their parents worried, they were talking about it on the wechat group. Sent a wave of panic throught the entire friend circle.
Imagine having one of the people you know IRL having a bad reaction to the vaccine.
(not anti-vax btw, just sharing anecdotes)
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 265d
did he get GBS, guillan barre syndrome.
Formfiller@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 263d
Everything republicans do is childish playground bully behavior
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 263d
Yeah but unfortunately they are doing a lot more harm than beating me up at recess because I'm brown.
Formfiller@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
It’s definitely regressed to full Nazi behavior unfortunately.
SolidShake@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 265d
I'm afraid of the ocean.
IronBird@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 265d
as you should be, being a hairless ape. hairless ape has no business being in the ocean
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 265d
There is a visceral feeling when you stare out at the ocean and into the distance.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 265d
I don't think kids are afraid of vaccines per se, it more so a:
poke-y sharp metal object that OW IT HURTS!
sort of thing
Taking blood is even scarier... aaahhhh
THEY'RE STEALING MY BLOOOD AAAAHHH HALP MOM
seriously tho. I was told that an adult human has like 2.5 liters of blood kids have 1.5 liters (from memory, no google)
so I got scared they took too much and I was afraid I'd drop dead if I didn't have enough blood... lmfao
I was like... idk 8-12 I think...
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 256d
Black people have every reason to be where I live due to the Tuskegee experiments. Even black doctors have said they have to reason themselves into getting the covid vaccine due to the fears it caused.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -2 pts · 264d
This is some very low-hanging fruit right here. I mean you'll need to dig a trench to harvest it.
bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 263d
Let's be honest, its the covid vax being rushed to market and the politics of it that made this happen. Before that it was an issue with total idiots, but now I have "normal" family members not vaxing their children for things eradicated 50 years ago.
I can totally see the skepticism on the covid vax. You really cant trust anything. Lets not pretend the covid vax didnt have issues (and we plebs dont really know for sure how many bad side effects there are/were yet. No matter what you think). And in my opinion government should not control your body. However these people not getting children vaccinated for measles are just absolute idiots.
And now people who think everything is black and white can downvote me to hell!
Allero@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 263d
Every pre-COVID representation of global pandemic: scientists discover a vaccine, everyone vaccinates and lives happily ever after
Real pandemic: people chicken out, start obsessing over 1 in 10000 side effects (vs, you know, a 1 in 50 chance to die of COVID-19 at the time) and then forever tell the story of "it's not tested enough yet".
You know what also constantly changes and cannot be tested for decades? Every. Single. Virus. Your flu vaccine is also not tested for side effects forever, because the virus changes all the time.
Before rolling COVID vaccines out, we were very damn sure they work and won't wreak havoc on you. But as people suddenly decided to go anti-vax, government had to get more assertive, for any vaccine works best when most people are vaccinated. You could normally self-isolate and not take vaccines, though, so it's up to you, the government's concern is that you don't spread this thing further, straining medical system that was already under a heavy load.
Disclaimer: not a medical professional. Had four COVID-19 vaccines though, including Sputnik-V, the very first one.
bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 263d
Never had a flu vaccine. Theyre pointless to me.
I dont believe the 1 in 50 death rate of covid. There's no way that is true or we would all be dead.
Also the covid vaccine isnt 1 and done. People go in to get boosters multiple times a year. And they still get covid.
I had to get the jab myself, made me feel awful, still feeling heart arrhythmia from it, still got covid anyways.
Now if I was old or sickly, sure id say get it. But I rarely get sick ever.
Allero@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 263d
On the death rate: in some countries, mortality rate went as high as 5%. To be fair, though, this only takes confirmed cases into account, leaving behind those who never reported a case, mostly because it went milder.
https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid
On a personal note, my mother lost two colleagues to it, and I lost an acquaintance. All confirmed COVID deaths.
I did get COVID-19 once. It went easy though, and I rapidly recovered after a mild fatigue and headache without long-term consequences. Some of the people I know had long-term effects, like warped smell, chronic fatigie, etc. One got it before vaccines rolled out, and two decided not to vaccinate. None of the vaccinated folks I know had something of this magnitude.
Vaccine is not a protection from infection. It's a pre-training program for an immune system to quickly beat the hell out of the disease before it gets nasty (and spreads violently).
Sad you got side effects, and I understand how it changes your perception on the matter. Personally, my only bad experience is having weakness in the arm for the first two days after the very first vaccine dose. In any case, I hope it will pass rather soon!
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 263d
Natanael@infosec.pub · 4 pts · 263d
You can't mandate that you get to infect me.
If you want to be a part of society, then
Your bodily choice extends to your body and ONLY your own body
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
Natanael@infosec.pub · 2 pts · 263d
What kind of workplace? Did they have a reason for masks not being enough? Because I know a few scenarios where masking wouldn't solve the entire problem
Also, most workplaces that implemented their own requirements was not doing it "on behalf of the government" but because they didn't want their workers to get sick and didn't want liability for sick customers
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
Allero@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 263d
It quickly gets more complicated when it affects others.
Is it your bodily choice to smoke on the street? No, because others have to inhale it. Same idea - no one wants to breathe in your disease-causing microbes.
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
Allero@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 263d
Depending on the country, it might be banned, and that's one obvious example I came with.
And, in my opinion, it must be, no matter what you smoke, tobacco or weed or something else. Why the hell should others inhale terrible chemicals just because you chose to?
Same, why should they be exposed to dangerous microbes just because you are reckless?
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
Allero@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 263d
No one argues with that. But you know what also has side effects that are orders of magnitude more likely? Diseases.
I understand that mandatory policies are to be reviewed with caution, and forcing people to do something that has inherent risks should normally be avoided. But here, by not taking a vaccine, you simply multiply and outsource the risk elsewhere, putting others in danger. If your decisions around vaccination would only hurt you, government would have no business dictating you what to do - yet, someone's refusal to vaccinate has killed someone else - say, immunodeficient person or a child who couldn't get vaccinated.
Sometimes we desperately need collective action, so much so that it may be mandated. This is one of such cases. Yes, it would be cool to have more time and do even more testing, to refine the preparations, etc. But when people die by millions, you're on a short timer.
COVID-19 has demonstrated a level of deadly disorganization in the face of a global crisis. People "mind their own business" so much that it kills others, with governments struggling to keep everyone looking in the same productive direction.
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
Allero@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 263d
That would be good, yes. A more relaxed approach to vaccination has caused plethora of public health problems.
Side effects tend to get less likely when we get more experience working with vaccines of a certain type. Modern coronavirus vaccines are better and safer than the first ones already, and flu ones have been around for so long that making a new vaccine very safe is no issue.
Meanwhile, side effects caused by repeated exposure to the disease may compound very badly.
echodot@feddit.uk · -7 pts · 264d
Wow stone cold take right there.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 264d
It's a shower thought, not a hot take. It completes with other thrilling thoughts, such as "it sure is wet in here" and "time to wash my butthole"
presoak@lazysoci.al · -38 pts · 264d
4 reasons to fear the present vaccine.
It's different from prior vaccines. So much so that they changed the definition for vaccine so the new one would fit it.
It's being pushed by untrustworthy entities.
It's got serious side-effects.
It is being pushed by the biggest propaganda campaign I ever saw. It really is impressive, and scary, to see the media and the public so in-synch.
Omgpwnies@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 264d
No, the definition of vaccine has not changed. I'm assuming you're attempting to quote this article, but through the lens of Fox News propaganda: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8656271/ If you read the publication (I know, that'll be difficult for you), it clearly states that there was a prior need that was made apparent to ensure that various groups in the scientific community, as well as laypeople, to have a consistent definition of various terms. However, "Vaccine" as defined, has always meant using methods to train the body how to respond to infection without causing infection.
Source?
What's "It's"? I'm assuming you're talking about Hydroxychlorine? That definitely has serious side effects. If you're talking about the covid vaccines?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X24001270 All but a few observed side effects were above the baseline expected conditions for a given population. The one you're probably thinking of is myocarditis, because it was one that was higher than expected. It's "serious", but not necessarily life threatening. Also, it's at a rate of about 3 people per 100,000, and unvaccinated people who caught covid were 5x more likely to experience it compared to vaccinated in any condition.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-health-pseudoscience/anti-vaccine-propaganda-robert-f-kennedy-jr
https://www.tamug.edu/nautilus/articles/v32-i2-AntiVaxx.html
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-pentagons-antivaccine-propaganda-endangered-public-health-and-tarnished/
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes
https://wiisglobal.org/the-politics-of-fear-right-wing-anti-gender-and-anti-vaccination-narratives/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-vaccine_activism
Sure thing, champ
Crankenstein@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 264d
I can tell a lot of effort went into this but the person you are talking to clearly has no ability to recognize empirical evidence. They are utterly guided by their own uneducated feelings and nothing will convince them otherwise. I applaud you on your efforts though. Lot of good information here.
Omgpwnies@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 264d
I don't disagree, they're an incredibly propagandized individual, but engaging in discussions like that gives me practice for engaging in discussions with similarly propagandized people I know IRL. It's helped me convert at least one person from an anti-vax conservative into a moderate at least leftist.
Crankenstein@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 264d
I'm too autistic to engage in these discussions with people because I cannot comprehend how they can just completely ignore irrefutable data just because they don't feel that it is correct. It utterly baffled me that people can be so controlled by their emotions to the point of just straight up rejecting reality.
Like, I get it. I understand it on a psychological level and how they are just victims of their own innate human psychology but I for the life of me cannot have a discussion with these people about it because they just do not listen nor care about facts and I have no patience to dance around it for the sake of protecting their fragile egos.
I'm essentially a modern day Ignaz Sammelweis.
jerkface@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 264d
Everyone does this. YOU do this. It would behoove you to develop compassion to cope with impatience, autism doesn't prevent it.
Machinist@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 264d
Not who you were responding to.
I've given up. I don't have it in me anymore to keep trying. Never was able to get anyone back to reality after they went deep into it. Friends and family. It's a terrible damn problem. Basically a big chunk of society needs to be deprogrammed and I haven't seen anything that will do the trick.
Not that I'm in any way disparaging your efforts. Good luck and god speed. Maybe you'll find some sort of magic that will flip the switch. You'd be a motherfucking hero, no irony.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -7 pts · 264d
Yes, you know the truth. And everybody around you knows the truth. And all of the right authorities agree with you. And this is all completely logical, obvious, right and scientific. And anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong, bad and insane.
It's an old story.
Crankenstein@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 264d
Gods, you're boring. Piss off with your utterly fallacious arguments.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -13 pts · 264d
Actually, they changed the definition to remove the "made from weakened organisms" part. To allow this other kind of "vaccine".
Now take a breath.
Omgpwnies@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 264d
Breathing just fine, thank you. I've been vaccinated
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 15 pts · 264d
There aren't "reasons" people are afraid of vaccines. The irrational fear comes first, and then people go looking for rationalizations like yours to explain the feelings they already have.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -10 pts · 264d
I like to think that I'm better than that of course. And no doubt it works both ways.
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 264d
Lord, it's so obvious. You wouldn't find that bullshit persuasive if you didn't already want to be persuaded.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -10 pts · 264d
How about you, do you think that you're suffering from the influence?
GrammarPolice@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 264d
How about you? Do you think you're suffering from idiocy?
presoak@lazysoci.al · -7 pts · 264d
good talk
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 264d
I have over my life discovered many such ways I do that kind of thing, which leads me to believe there may still be some I am not aware of. But I think I have addressed any that I knew about.
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 264d
What was your definition of vaccine? Vaccines have never 100% prevented people from contracting a virus. A virus is a living thing that once it enters your body and body has to react. If your body doesn't recognize it is bad, it may ignore it and allow it to replicate and spread without any resistance. If your body knows it is bad, it starts to put up a resistance and fight it soon as it sees it. Both bodies "contracted the virus" but the one who got a vaccine knows when it sees it to start working against it sooner; hopefully preventing it from spreading to much or causing any serious symptoms.
I like to think of it like making the opposition wear a red shirt. When you see a red shirt, you know it's an invader, without the vaccine, you don't know what to look for, so you let the red shirt population grow and spread until you notice that the red shirts are causing problems, then you recognize them as an invader, but they are spread throughout the body and ingrained into the population. A lot more opposition... Thus the battle isn't as quickly won, or if unlucky, the damages get to severe before being able to clear out all the invaders, and you die.
TronBronson@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 264d
Super serious side effects which is why it was safely administered to 70% of the globe. Side effects so serious you don't know a single person with a verifiable case! That fear mongering worked before billions of people received the vaccine 5 years ago. Someone update your bot.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -9 pts · 264d
I've heard of lots of side effects actually.
TronBronson@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 264d
Yea my dick's bigger and im 4" taller. According to me and many sources on Facebook, corroborated by ur mom.
Bytemeister@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
Little late to the party, but I'll jump in.
Without context, I'm going to guess you mean the Covid vaccine.
If you're taking about the mRNA vaccines, then you are partially right, but there is a non-mRNA option you can get in the US.
Source? I'm also curious to get your definition of what a vaccine is.
It's also being "pushed" by multiple world-class regulatory organizations with millions of hours of experience in testing the efficacy and safety of all kinds of medicine.
Any and every kind of medical procedure can have serious side effects. Clearly you've never read the waiver and info page for any vaccine you've received. There is a mile of potential issues, along with a guide on what to do if you experience certain symptoms, and resources for you to reachout to if you believe you are having an adverse reaction to your shot. Vaccines are considered based on the chance that you will have an adverse reaction, and the severity of that reaction, and ultimately the mRNA vaccines do not rise above the risk threshold for other "conventional" vaccines.
This is a wakeup call to let you know that you're an oppositional defiant luddite who has been scared by reknowned liars and conspiracy theorists. Also, you should listen to your wife more, she's right most of the time.
presoak@lazysoci.al · -1 pts · 263d
I'm too lazy to provide sources at the moment. Maybe peruse this thread.
I think that you are a true believer in the midst of a society filled with true believers. As incapable of controlling the vector of your thoughts as a pebble embedded in a glacier. As certain of the truth as a medieval zealot. If the tv told you to cut off your feet you'd do it today and chuckle at what fools those other guys are. No thanks.
Bytemeister@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 263d
You'd be the first to describe me as a "true believer". I'm about as skeptical as it gets, but being skeptical does not mean "disagree with everything on principle" it means "everything needs to have a standard of evidence" and right now, claiming that mRNA vaccines are dangerous and ineffective does not have a peer reviewed consensus amongst medical experts. In lieu of having my own lab, and the time and funding to run my own study and get it peer reviewed (something I have neither the funds, time, nor expertise to do) I must rely on experts in the subject who are respected in their relevant fields.
presoak@lazysoci.al · 0 pts · 263d
You could trust the evidence of your own senses and wait till you're actually sick before reaching for the medicine.
Bytemeister@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 263d
You write like a seminary school dropout with a 3rd grade understanding of biology fishing for a fox news daytime correspondent position.
Very funny you mention that, because your own senses aren't worth diddly-squat in the scientific world. It's what you would call "anecdotal evidence"... Barely better than a secondhand recounting of a Facebook post. It's especially funny to put human senses on a pedestal when communicating to someone who wears corrective lenses. Do you even know what your senses are? It's mostly chemical/electrical impulses made by bits of meat, sent along bundles of meat to a meat-based signal processor, which interperts those signals and makes it available to other parts of your meatiness to react to. I don't trust my senses, because what I have to sense with is made to see food, hear predators, and smell mates. My senses are wholly insufficient to see individual cells, let alone the proteins that make them up, and the nucleic acids that code for those proteins. My fingers lack the precision to detect the shape and size of a virus. You can't rely on your eyes for that you need a microscope. You can't measure tiny distance by touch, you need a micrometer. I don't trust my senses, but I have confidence in the steel, glass and repeatable precision of a machine.
Seems like you are the kind of person who waits for a car crash before reaching for their seatbelt. Frankly, the world's is better off it this is true.
It really is funny, because there is no shortage of optical and auditory illusions. Hundreds of thousands of people claim to have seen ghosts, or flying saucers, or bigfoot, but none of those things has been confirmed to exist. Your senses do lie to you, and they lie a lot. Pilots are trained to rely on their instruments when flying, because your inner ear evolved to keep you upright when walking and running, and not to tell you which way is up in a tumbling aircraft. Your eyes evolved to spot food and predators, but even our advanced human eyes fail to discern the ocean from the sky, and no small number of experienced pilots have crashed because they didn't trust the artificial horizon in their airplane.
presoak@lazysoci.al · 0 pts · 263d
You stand proudly as an example for us all.
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 263d
The projection is herculean.
presoak@lazysoci.al · 1 pts · 263d
No u
bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 263d
Youre right, and being down voted by people who have no concept of non black and white thinking.
People are right to be non trusting of a brand new untested vaccine.
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 263d
See, you're using a very selective definition of "untested". Obviously it has been tested. You just don't accept those tests.
bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 263d
Tested and verified by who?
Cant trust anything.
presoak@lazysoci.al · 1 pts · 263d
Good morning.
You ever see that old scifi movie, "The Omega Man"? It's kinda like that.